BostonBaldy
14.09.2007, 18:55
(edited by BostonBaldy, 14.09.2007, 19:12) |
Homemade Follicular Neogenesis (Hair Multiplication & Research) |
Hi all,
So I've been lurking on another website on hair loss and many there have devised a homemade follicular neogenesis procedure. This is based on the work by Cotsarelis and Fuchs, as well as the new startup Follica, Inc. It'd be great to know what you all think of this procedure.
1. Mix lithium orotate or chloride (1 1/2 crushed pills) with diemythl sulfoxide or DMSO (1 tsp of liquid) and caffeine (2 tsps of powder). Mix thoroughly in a bowl. These topicals appear to increase WNT signalling.
2. Stir powder mixture into na 8 oz solution of 50% water plus 50% ethyl alcohol. This solution should increase absorption by decreasing particle size of powder. After thoroughly mixing pour solution in a spray bottle or dropper.
3. Use a dermaroller or lancet to gently wound the scalp. This creates wounding on the scalp that MAY mimic the wounding necessary to create-stem cell like conditions for new hair growth.
4. Spray solution directly on scalp.
Do spraying and wounding several times a week. What is exciting about this procedure is that the goal of this is NOT to keep your hair but rather create new hair by inducing WNT protein signaling (hence the topicals plus wounding).
Thoughts/comments?
Best,
BB
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benji
14.09.2007, 20:51
@ BostonBaldy
|
Homemade Follicular Neogenesis |
When I have more time (not tonight), I'd like to ask you about this.............
BTW---didn't know that caffeine could up WNT...
Parting note..........I'd imagine it would be good not to wash the scalp or even touch it much after the wounding for a good week or so in order to allow it to heal just like a rodents back or a rabbits back would in lab circumstances. Soaps and shampoos might interefere with signalling or the response to bacteria and germs may or may not have something to do with the skin's instructions to creat a follicle..............it would seemingly be best to attempt to copy the wound-healing protocol followed in the mice as closely as possible from a care standpoint. .....
You find some interesteing stuff BB> It will be nice to see you have a full head of hair someday
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baldlatino34
14.09.2007, 22:29
@ BostonBaldy
|
Homemade Follicular Neogenesis |
how much time wastefulness. intercytex now.....
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James Bond
15.09.2007, 00:12
@ BostonBaldy
|
Homemade Follicular Neogenesis |
» Hi all,
»
» So I've been lurking on another website on hair loss and many there have
» devised a homemade follicular neogenesis procedure. This is based on the
» work by Cotsarelis and Fuchs, as well as the new startup Follica, Inc.
» It'd be great to know what you all think of this procedure.
»
» 1. Mix lithium orotate or chloride (1 1/2 crushed pills) with diemythl
» sulfoxide or DMSO (1 tsp of liquid) and caffeine (2 tsps of powder). Mix
» thoroughly in a bowl. These topicals appear to increase WNT signalling.
»
» 2. Stir powder mixture into na 8 oz solution of 50% water plus 50% ethyl
» alcohol. This solution should increase absorption by decreasing particle
» size of powder. After thoroughly mixing pour solution in a spray bottle or
» dropper.
»
» 3. Use a dermaroller or lancet to gently wound the scalp. This creates
» wounding on the scalp that MAY mimic the wounding necessary to create-stem
» cell like conditions for new hair growth.
»
» 4. Spray solution directly on scalp.
»
» Do spraying and wounding several times a week. What is exciting about this
» procedure is that the goal of this is NOT to keep your hair but rather
» create new hair by inducing WNT protein signaling (hence the topicals plus
» wounding).
»
» Thoughts/comments?
»
» Best,
» BB
Personally, I do not recommend trying this.
|
Jtelecom
15.09.2007, 01:28
@ BostonBaldy
|
Homemade Follicular Neogenesis |
Waseda, is that you?
---
Jtelecom
5 Strip Surgeries (4 Bosley, 1 AlviArmani)
3 FUE Surgeries (2 Undisclosed, 1 AlviArmani)
(Latest FUE Surgery: June 6, 2008 - AlviArmani Los Angeles) |
debris
15.09.2007, 02:40
@ BostonBaldy
|
Homemade Follicular Neogenesis |
I think it is crazy. But let me know if it worked
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Raptor
15.09.2007, 06:04
@ BostonBaldy
|
Homemade Follicular Neogenesis |
Hey BB......I still dont get where even if this would regrow hair, that this "new" hair would be any more resistant to the DHT that caused the original hair to fall out ??? As thrilled as I would be to see my hair regrowing, I would be crushed if it started falling back out again in 6 months or so.....
|
John The Revelator
15.09.2007, 08:45
@ Raptor
|
Homemade Follicular Neogenesis |
» Hey BB......I still dont get where even if this would regrow hair, that
» this "new" hair would be any more resistant to the DHT that caused the
» original hair to fall out ??? As thrilled as I would be to see my hair
» regrowing, I would be crushed if it started falling back out again in 6
» months or so.....
Good question, Raptor. As I see it, any new hair grown by this method would NOT be resistant to DHT at all, since all its cellular components are derived from cells from the MPB areas.
|
goata007
15.09.2007, 08:46
@ BostonBaldy
|
Homemade Follicular Neogenesis |
» So I've been lurking on another website on hair loss and many there have
» devised a homemade follicular neogenesis procedure. This is based on the
» work by Cotsarelis and Fuchs, as well as the new startup Follica, Inc.
have the 'inventors' tried this? has it worked?
|
Ahab
15.09.2007, 13:25
@ John The Revelator
|
BUT JTR . . . |
» Good question, Raptor. As I see it, any new hair grown by this method
» would NOT be resistant to DHT at all, since all its cellular components
» are derived from cells from the MPB areas.
But what if the new hair grows nicely until 20 or 30 or 40 or however-old-you-were-when-you-went-bald years later?
In my case, I'd be close to 85 years old when I'd go bald again.
And hey, maybe I could grow it again by this or by then a better method.
(Or maybe I'd already be dead.)
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thuggish_ruggish
15.09.2007, 13:31
@ BostonBaldy
|
Homemade Follicular Neogenesis |
» Perhaps the equivalent of making it to the moon in a helicopter... but have at it, probably as much potential as most of the scam topicals out there.
Hi all,
»
» So I've been lurking on another website on hair loss and many there have
» devised a homemade follicular neogenesis procedure. This is based on the
» work by Cotsarelis and Fuchs, as well as the new startup Follica, Inc.
» It'd be great to know what you all think of this procedure.
»
» 1. Mix lithium orotate or chloride (1 1/2 crushed pills) with diemythl
» sulfoxide or DMSO (1 tsp of liquid) and caffeine (2 tsps of powder). Mix
» thoroughly in a bowl. These topicals appear to increase WNT signalling.
»
» 2. Stir powder mixture into na 8 oz solution of 50% water plus 50% ethyl
» alcohol. This solution should increase absorption by decreasing particle
» size of powder. After thoroughly mixing pour solution in a spray bottle or
» dropper.
»
» 3. Use a dermaroller or lancet to gently wound the scalp. This creates
» wounding on the scalp that MAY mimic the wounding necessary to create-stem
» cell like conditions for new hair growth.
»
» 4. Spray solution directly on scalp.
»
» Do spraying and wounding several times a week. What is exciting about this
» procedure is that the goal of this is NOT to keep your hair but rather
» create new hair by inducing WNT protein signaling (hence the topicals plus
» wounding).
»
» Thoughts/comments?
»
» Best,
» BB
|
John The Revelator
15.09.2007, 14:56
@ Ahab
|
BUT JTR . . . |
» » Good question, Raptor. As I see it, any new hair grown by this method
» » would NOT be resistant to DHT at all, since all its cellular components
» » are derived from cells from the MPB areas.
»
» But what if the new hair grows nicely until 20 or 30 or 40 or
» however-old-you-were-when-you-went-bald years later?
»
» In my case, I'd be close to 85 years old when I'd go bald again.
»
» And hey, maybe I could grow it again by this or by then a better method.
»
» (Or maybe I'd already be dead.)
No, I don't see how the follicles would genetically revert to an embryonic state.
Yes, something like this is basically mimicking the embryonic development of hair follicles, i.e., creating hair follicles "de novo". But remember, you are still dealing with adult cells, and adult levels of testosterone (and thus, adult levels of DHT.)
Granted, a 60 year-old would not have the same testosterone levels of a 20 year-old.
But I don't see how they would get the cells to revert to a youthful or embryonic state. Inducing new follicles to grow, in my view, is not the same as turning back the genetic clock in the cell nucleus. Instead, you're basically recreating an embryonic process but using adult building blocks to do it.
Not that I'm saying I think this experiment (the way they described it) would work anyway. I agree with thuggish ruggish, who said it's like trying to fly to the moon in a helicopter.
|
BostonBaldy
15.09.2007, 21:01
@ BostonBaldy
|
Homemade Follicular Neogenesis |
Hey all,
I thought I'd add some clarifications for those wanting to try this procedure. I plan on doing this soon. Several points:
1. You need both DMSO and Lithium for follicular neogenesis. DMSO positively activates the WNT/beta-catenin pathway while Lithium prevents inhibition of this pathway. Specifically, lithium prevents two components from inhibiting activation of the WNT/beta-catenin pathway: the protein glycogen synthase kinase-3beta (GSK-3b) and the gene Dickkopf-1 (DKK-1). Remarkably, recent research shows that DKK-1 is the gene most upregulated by DHT.
2. Topical caffeine does not appear to activate the WNT/beta-catenin pathway. However, caffeine does have two important functions in alopecia. First, it activates the protein sonic hedgehog (shh), which appears to play a role in hair regeneration (though more work needs to be done on this). Second, caffeine is a potent DHT blocker, so it indirectly inhibits the DKK-1 gene (which in turn inhibits the WNT/beta-catenin pathway).
3. Lithium Orotate is more bioavailable than Lithium Carbonate, so it's probably the preferred form to apply topically.
4. Several posters had concerns that new hair follicles would still be vulnerable to DHT-induced miniturization. I do not think this is the case if hairs actually grow de novo from the scalp. The work by Cotsarelis and Fuchs has shown that DHT-resistant follicular neogenesis is possible in otherwise DHT-vulnerable scalp. Regardless, even if the new hairs are DHT-vulnerable then the above procedure (if it works) will just continually replace old hairs with new hairs.
5. Finally, I should add that this procedure is VERY, VERY cheap.
Best,
BB
|
BostonBaldy
15.09.2007, 21:03
@ James Bond
|
Homemade Follicular Neogenesis |
Why?
» Personally, I do not recommend trying this.
|
benji
15.09.2007, 23:26
@ BostonBaldy
|
Kurt Stenn and George Costarialis are no fools guys................... |
If this was like flying to the moon in a helicopter, these men (Stenn and Costarialis) would not be major investors and on board with this new company.
Theoretically speaking, if a man was on something like dutasteride, and could create new follicles, the androgenic stimulis in those new follicles would probably never get high enough to "kick off" his male pattern baldness genetics in the first place if you think about it.
I was thinking of this procedure in conjunction with a FUE-transplant, letting the donor holes heal with the assistance of extra WNT-signalling protiens and having the healing "managed" (i.e. no sleeping with your head resting on a pillow for a couple of weeks to allow the wounds to heal with no un-natural closure, but to heal like mouse or rabbit backs did in the experiments).
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BostonBaldy
16.09.2007, 00:15
(edited by BostonBaldy, 16.09.2007, 00:33)
@ benji
|
Kurt Stenn and George Costarialis are no fools guys................... |
benji,
I agree with you, for the most part. But I still strongly think that follicular neogenesis, if done like Follica plans, will NOT produce hair follicles sensitive to DHT. The entire point to the wounding/LiCl/DMSO is to create new skin and follicles through our own adult stem cells, which go to the wound and then differentiate into various cells, including hair follicles. These new hairs are created under non-congential genetic conditions. This is what the May 2007 Cotsarelis et al. article showed -- i.e., that WNT activation (aided by wounding) fosters de novo hair growth that bypasses the original genetic programming. So I'd still be taking dutasteride or finasteride while undergoing a WNT activation procedure (just in case), but the evidence seems to show that this wouldn't be necessary.
Anecdotally, a 47 year-old man named "hatchet" at regrowth.com reports using the wounding/LiCi/DMSO procedure and having new hair follicles grow for the first time in his life (he's been balding since 19). Several others report some growth, but most of thee posters are just starting out on this procedure. So we will have to wait and see what happens...
BTW, I liked the idea of using DMSO/LiCi with FUE to induce follicular growth. But why the "managed" healing? I don't think that would be necessary.
Best,
BB
|
John The Revelator
16.09.2007, 00:26
(edited by John The Revelator, 16.09.2007, 00:41)
@ BostonBaldy
|
Kurt Stenn and George Costarialis are no fools guys................... |
» These new hairs are created under genetic conditions that are NOT the ones
» we are born with, and thus are not sensitive to congenital genetic
» pathways. This is what the May 2007 Cotsarelis et al. article showed --
» i.e., that WNT activation (aided by wounding) fosters de novo hair growth
» that bypasses the original genetic programming.
I'm going to go out on a BIG limb here and say that I think that it would NOT really bypass the original genetic programming. Inducing brand new hairs to grow via WNT activation is not, IMHO, the same as "bypassing the original genetic programming". I think people are reading this part of the research incorrectly.
I believe that, if the original cells are from the DHT-susceptible areas, the process is only creating de novo follicles (and in that sense going through an embryonic follicle-formation pathway), but the cells are still coming from DHT-susceptible cell lines, so the resulting follicles would be DHT-susceptible and would ultimately fall victim to MPB.
I realize that I definitely might be very, very wrong on this -- but this is my intuition talking.
I think that whatever the genetic coding of the cell lines used (the genotype), will determine the ultimate phenotypic expression of the resulting follicles. I think this is a barrier that cannot be easily circumvented just by creating new follicles. Sure, new follicles would be created; and that would be wonderful; but they would be DHT-susceptible, not DHT-resistant.
I'd even go so far, however, to suspect that Cotsarelis et al. know this, and their plan is to use cell lines that come from DHT-RESISTANT AREAS to do this.
Again, I may be very wrong. But I'm just saying this to be on the record about it. If the subject comes up again and we learn more, remember that this is what I said!
By the way, when I reiterated thuggish's remark about flying to the moon in a helicopter, *I* was referring to forum members attempting this "procedure" at home, NOT to Cotsarelis and Stenn's efforts.
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James Bond
16.09.2007, 00:43
@ BostonBaldy
|
Homemade Follicular Neogenesis |
» Why?
»
» » Personally, I do not recommend trying this.
I believe this technique is just too far removed from the original experiment to prove to be beneficial. Normally I would say go for it anyways, but due to the invasive nature of the technique, I cannot recommend it. That being said, since people are going through with it, I'll follow their progress with interest.
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BostonBaldy
16.09.2007, 00:56
@ John The Revelator
|
Kurt Stenn and George Costarialis are no fools guys................... |
» By the way, when I reiterated thuggish's remark about flying to the moon
» in a helicopter, *I* was referring to forum members attempting this
» "procedure" at home, NOT to Cotsarelis and Stenn's efforts.
I agree with the above comment. I think the "homemade follicular neogenesis" is at best only an approximation of a baldness cure. However, it is a total solution if it works! As far as DHT sensitibity, I disagree. The cell lines are embryonic in the wounding plus WNT activation and follicular neogenesis starts from scratch, so to speak. Of course these were done with mice, so no one knows with complete certainty.
Best,
BB
|
BostonBaldy
16.09.2007, 00:59
@ James Bond
|
Homemade Follicular Neogenesis |
» I believe this technique is just too far removed from the original
» experiment to prove to be beneficial. Normally I would say go for it
» anyways, but due to the invasive nature of the technique, I cannot
» recommend it. That being said, since people are going through with it,
» I'll follow their progress with interest.
LiCi and DMSO are very promising WNT promoters. As far as being invasive, I think part of the problem is that the above procedure is not invasive enough, lol -- at least not to the level as in the experiment by Cotsarelis et al. The wounding is quite gentle with needling or dermaroller. In the end the procedure may not produce new follicles but it may keep existing follicles via positive WNT activation and DKK-1 inhibition. (Also I should add that the gentle wounding as outlined above will be beneficial regardless by increasing the absorption of DMSO and LiCi).
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James Bond
16.09.2007, 00:59
(edited by James Bond, 16.09.2007, 01:16)
@ John The Revelator
|
Kurt Stenn and George Costarialis are no fools guys................... |
I agree with you on this JTR. As a matter of fact, Dr. Gho uses stem cells in his cellular HM research and feels that since the stem cells come from the MPB-resistant area, they result in follicles that are also resistant to MPB. Keep in mind that Dr. Gho does not inject a dermal component in his cellular HM research; thus, the resulting follicles' dermal component comes 100% from the balding area. And we know that the dermal component is the part of the follicle that gets whacked out by DHT and is also responsible for building the dermal component of new or regenerating follicles.
IOW, according to ICX/ARX, DHT-resistant mesenchymal cells are capable of building DHT resistant follicles. But according to Gho, epithelial stem cells can, under the proper circumstances, trump the signals sent via the dermal component.
Obviously nobody knows the answer to this for certain, but my gut feeling is that stem cells from the balding area coupled with the dermal component from the balding area will result in MPB-prone follicles. I mean you have a lose-lose situation there. And as far as the theory that the MPB characteristics are removed due to the embryonic reaction of the new follicle growing (in the Cotsarelis technique), keep in mind that this same embryonic reaction occurred in the balding area when the MPB-prone follicles originally grew there. This is proof that the presence of WNT doesn't magically make the MPB environment favorable to building DHT resistant follicles. (but having said that, maybe someday a cell signaler will be found that will).
So IMO, the question of the hour is--how long can these new follicles hold out in a heavily DHT-laden environment? My guess is that it will be absolutely NW-level dependent. IOW, if a person is a NW7 at age 19, the new follicles are not going to last long on his head. OTOH, if the person is a NW3 at age 40, the follicles could last for quite some time.
But I'm speaking of the clinical research method here and not of the bathtub coctail version. As I said before, I don't put much faith in the bathtub coctail version of this research. But that is just my personal opinion.
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BostonBaldy
16.09.2007, 01:04
@ James Bond
|
Kurt Stenn and George Costarialis are no fools guys................... |
» I agree with you on this JTR. As a matter of fact, Dr. Gho uses stem cells
» in his cellular HM research and feels that since the stem cells come from
» the MPB-resistant area, they result in follicles that are also resistant
» to MPB. Keep in mind that Dr. Gho does not inject a dermal component in
» his cellular HM research; thus, the resulting follicles' dermal component
» comes 100% from the balding area. And we know that the dermal component is
» the part of the follicle that gets whacked out by DHT.
Honestly, I'm very tempted to agree with you JB. But what's keeping me back are the anecdotes on wounding and hair growth on bald people. For example, the father of a friend of mine was in a severe car accident and had several large scars on his BALD head. But lo and behold -- dark hairs generated from these large wounds. Not many, mind you, but hairs obviously different from vellous hairs on the rest of his scalp. Maybe I'm crossing my fingers, eh??
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John The Revelator
16.09.2007, 01:04
@ BostonBaldy
|
Kurt Stenn and George Costarialis are no fools guys................... |
» I agree with the above comment. I think the "homemade follicular
» neogenesis" is at best only an approximation of a baldness cure. However,
» it is a total solution if it works! As far as DHT sensitibity, I disagree.
» The cell lines are embryonic in the wounding plus WNT activation
» and follicular neogenesis starts from scratch, so to speak. Of course
» these were done with mice, so no one knows with complete certainty.
I think the cell lines are NOT embryonic. What they are doing is mimicking an embryonic pathway to create a new follicle, but the cell lines that are doing this are DHT-susceptible. There is a fine nuance of difference here, but I think it makes all the difference in the world.
|
John The Revelator
16.09.2007, 01:08
@ James Bond
|
Kurt Stenn and George Costarialis are no fools guys................... |
» I agree with you on this JTR. As a matter of fact, Dr. Gho uses stem cells
» in his cellular HM research and feels that since the stem cells come from
» the MPB-resistant area, they result in follicles that are also resistant
» to MPB.
Yes, but I think that it's not necessarily the stem cells that are determining the DHT-susceptibility of the new follicles, but the keratinocytes, DP cells, etc. from the area where the new follicles are being grown. These cells are the "building blocks" of the new follicles, per se, while the stem cells are kind of acting as "inducers". They FACILITATE the process, but in the end, the new follicle will bear the genotype (and thus the phenotype) of the building blocks uses. If the new follicle is being grown from DHT-susceptible raw materials, then it will have the phenotype of these raw materials.
Of course, the stem cells will ultimately (partly) differentiate into follicular components as well, and then, they, too, will bear the genotype and phenotype of the part of the head what brung 'em.
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John The Revelator
16.09.2007, 01:10
@ BostonBaldy
|
Kurt Stenn and George Costarialis are no fools guys................... |
» Honestly, I'm very tempted to agree with you JB. But what's keeping me
» back are the anecdotes on wounding and hair growth on bald people. For
» example, the father of a friend of mine was in a severe car accident and
» had several large scars on his BALD head. But lo and behold -- dark hairs
» generated from these large wounds. Not many, mind you, but hairs obviously
» different from vellous hairs on the rest of his scalp. Maybe I'm crossing
» my fingers, eh??
OK, but do you know for certain that these wonderful hairs are not DHT-susceptible? Just because hairs grow and look great for a few months, a year, or a few years, doesn't mean they will not eventually succumb to DHT.
You were just looking at hairs; you weren't looking at a map of their DNA.
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John The Revelator
16.09.2007, 01:16
@ James Bond
|
Kurt Stenn and George Costarialis are no fools guys................... |
» Obviously nobody knows the answer to this for certain, but my gut feeling
» is that stem cells from the balding area coupled with the dermal component
» from the balding area will result in MPB-prone follicles.
Exactly. And well said.
Of course, the big picture point here is that why would these doctors even risk this, when they can easily use cells from the DHT-resistant "donor area" to accomplish the same thing? Follicles grown in this way, in vitro, can then be implanted into the scalp.
After all we now know, it's not a big stretch of the imagination to see that happening.
|
BostonBaldy
16.09.2007, 01:22
@ John The Revelator
|
Kurt Stenn and George Costarialis are no fools guys................... |
» Of course, the big picture point here is that why would these doctors even
» risk this, when they can easily use cells from the DHT-resistant "donor
» area" to accomplish the same thing? Follicles grown in this way, in
» vitro, can then be implanted into the scalp.
»
» After all we now know, it's not a big stretch of the imagination to see
» that happening.
But I'd like to point out that this is NOT what Cotsarelis and the rest of the Follica team have been talking about in public -- they've talked about wounding the scalp with a laser and then applying a WNT-promoting lotion. Hmmm... I'm going to email some people and see if I can get some ideas about Cotsarelis' procedure and DHT sensitivity....
|
John The Revelator
16.09.2007, 01:24
@ BostonBaldy
|
Kurt Stenn and George Costarialis are no fools guys................... |
» But I'd like to point out that this is NOT what Cotsarelis and the rest of
» the Follica team have been talking about in public -- they've talked about
» wounding the scalp with a laser and then applying a WNT-promoting lotion.
Sure, and that's great to prove the concept that new hairs can be grown, and that is exactly what they've done.
But when this thing shakes out as a real medical procedure, my bet is they'll use cell lines from the back of the head to induce DHT-resistant follicles.
|
haircoach
16.09.2007, 07:07
@ John The Revelator
|
Kurt Stenn and George Costarialis are no fools guys................... |
Have you read the original document of Cotsarelis et al? See here:
http://nahrsmembers.org/home/Publications/tabid/70/Default.aspx
|
Baccy
16.09.2007, 08:22
@ BostonBaldy
|
Homemade Follicular Neogenesis |
I tried the DMSO thing once and found that other people were complaining about a terrible odour emanating from my body. My breath and my whole body was stinking yet I couldn't smell it myself. I had to stop the DMSO treatment because I was paranoid about this side effect.
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John The Revelator
16.09.2007, 10:49
@ haircoach
|
Kurt Stenn and George Costarialis are no fools guys................... |
» Have you read the original document of Cotsarelis et al? See here:
» http://nahrsmembers.org/home/Publications/tabid/70/Default.aspx
The WNT/wounding study was done in mice, right?
And mice don't get MPB, right?
Then how can they know that MPB in humans won't affect the new hairs, if the new hairs are grown in MPB areas using MPB-affected cell lines?
|
Ahab
16.09.2007, 18:10
@ John The Revelator
|
BUT JTR . . . |
» Granted, a 60 year-old would not have the same testosterone levels of a 20
» year-old.
BTW wouldn't there be more to balding than testosterone levels?
Sme men don't go bald until they are middle aged--a time when they have less testosterone than when they were younger (one possible reason: it would be a combo of how much over how long that causes hair to fall out, and that could vary from person to person).
» But I don't see how they would get the cells to revert to a youthful or
» embryonic state. Inducing new follicles to grow, in my view, is not the
» same as turning back the genetic clock in the cell nucleus. Instead,
» you're basically recreating an embryonic process but using adult building
» blocks to do it.
OK--I didn't realize that the newly generated follicles don't start over again from square one, so to speak.
However--perhaps this could give someone a second chance at saving his hair from the effects of DHT, by creating new follicles and taking Avodart.
|
Ahab
16.09.2007, 18:12
@ John The Revelator
|
BUT JTR . . . |
Or maybe something like this stuff could be used to create more donor hair on the back of the head to use for HTs.
|
ivory
16.09.2007, 19:11
@ BostonBaldy
|
I'd do this |
I'd do this, sounds crazy enough. A 3x3 mm test area on the temple, why not.
Two questions though:
Didn't the mice in question develop tumors from too much signalling?
Anybody can recommend a source of lithium orotate?
|
John The Revelator
16.09.2007, 19:56
@ Ahab
|
BUT JTR . . . |
» BTW wouldn't there be more to balding than testosterone levels?
Of course, but testosterone levels determine how much DHT can be in circulation, because testosterone is converted into DHT by the reductase enzyme. So if you have genetic receptor sensitivity to DHT, and high testosterone levels, you'll express MPB. But if you have genetic receptor sensitivity plus very low testosterone levels (as in females or most males of advanced age), even with the genetics in place, you'll probably express MPB very weakly.
» Sme men don't go bald until they are middle aged--a time when they have
» less testosterone than when they were younger (one possible reason: it
» would be a combo of how much over how long that causes hair to fall out,
» and that could vary from person to person).
Yes, it's a combination of a lot of things:
1) The testosterone levels in your body, which determine DHT levels.
2) Your genes -- genetics determine the sensitivity of your cell receptors to DHT. So, lots of men who have huge testosterone levels, and thus huge DHT levels, still don't go bald because they have great genetics.
3) Your genetics also determines the AGE at which your genetically-determined receptor sensitivity to DHT kicks in, if at all. So, in some men it's 18, in others it's 25, in others it may be 35 or 50.
In general, a general rule is that, apart from senescent baldness, the later in life the receptor sensitivity genes kick in, the LOWER the man's ultimate Norwood level will be when it stabilizes.
So, if a man's receptor sensitivity MPB genes kick in at 15, there's a much higher chance he'll stabilize at a NW 7. But if his receptor sensitivity genes kick in much later, say at 40, then there's a much higher chance that he'll stabilize at, say, NW 2 or 3.
This is largely (but not only) because, as he gets older, his testosterone levels are declining, so less DHT is being produced.
|
mumuka
17.09.2007, 01:01
@ BostonBaldy
|
Kurt Stenn and George Costarialis are no fools guys................... |
»Anecdotally, a 47 year-old man named "hatchet" at regrowth.com reports
» using the wounding/LiCi/DMSO procedure and having new hair follicles grow
» for the first time in his life (he's been balding since 19). Several
» others report some growth, but most of thee posters are just starting out
» on this procedure. So we will have to wait and see what happens...
One thing i know about regrowth.com: in contrast with other hair loss sites ,there pretty much everybody is having ``this huge regrowth``,``my temples are filling in`` or ``new hair follicles grow for the first time in his life (he's been balding since 19)``. but everybody`s camera is broken or not home or ``i dont know how to post a pic.Nobody posted a single freakin pic.My opinion is that they are a bunch of liars....
People, if you are making SENSATIONAL claims be prepared to back it with pics .
PUT UP OR SHUT UP
|
BostonBaldy
17.09.2007, 13:22
@ ivory
|
Four provisos for anyone interested in doing this |
Hey Ivory,
I don't know a good source of lithium orotate, but I'd google it. As far as tumors, lithium appears very safe as a topical AND oral supplement. It is being used in a number of clinical trials for its anti-cancer properties. There appears to be a major difference between genetically programming WNT pathways and adjusting WNT pathways through topicals and oral supplements.
Four provisos, however:
1. Is needling enough? I.e., will this create the wounding needed to engender stem cell like conditions that foster new hair growth? (I certainly wouldn't recommend dermabrasion on the scalp to anyone -- at least not yet.) But at the very least needling is a good idea b/c it will increase the absorption of topicals AND increase collagen production.
2. Smell problems with DMSO. DMSO may make you smell bad -- it's a sulfur compound so this is an obvious side effect.
3. Be careful with caffeine. People report getting headaches if they apply too much caffeine. Everyone has different levels of sensitivity.
4. I'd consider throwing in 3 other compounds. Just buy pills of green tea, grapeseed, and apply polyphenols. Add several pills to the mixture. These are fairly potent anti-androgens and appear to regular the WNT pathway in ways that may be beneficial for hair loss.
Best,
BB
» I'd do this, sounds crazy enough. A 3x3 mm test area on the temple, why
» not.
»
» Two questions though:
»
» Didn't the mice in question develop tumors from too much signalling?
»
» Anybody can recommend a source of lithium orotate?
|
TiggersHair
17.09.2007, 13:38
@ BostonBaldy
|
Four provisos for anyone interested in doing this |
BB wrote:
-lithium appears very safe as a topical AND oral supplement-
Please stay away from lithium!!!!
Lithium is used in the drug therapy of major depression. It is well known for its very narrow therapeutic range and its strong side-effects. It should not be used as an oral supplement.
I don´t know about topical application but I would stay away from it as well.
Should be hard to get too...
|
BostonBaldy
17.09.2007, 14:09
@ TiggersHair
|
Four provisos for anyone interested in doing this |
I don't recommend taking lithium as an oral supplement for hair loss -- no evidence that it can help with hair loss. In fact, in high doses lithium carbonate can actually CAUSE hair loss. In lower doses it is considered safe by the medical establishment for the treatment of mood disorders, however.
But like I said lithium actually has ANTI-cancer properties. Since most of us have MPB, which is strongly correlated with prostate cancer, here's an interesting article:
Sun A, Shanmugam I, Song J, Terranova PF, Thrasher JB, Li B. Lithium
suppresses cell proliferation by interrupting E2F-DNA interaction and
subsequently reducing S-phase gene expression in prostate cancer.
Prostate. 2007 Apr 17; [Epub ahead of print]
PMID: 17440966 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]
"BACKGROUND: Lithium is an existing drug for bipolar disorder
and its uptake was recently linked to reduced tumor incidence
compared to the general population. The major target of lithium
action is glycogen synthase kinase 3 (GSK-3). Since GSK-3
expression and activation are associated with prostate cancer
progression, the anti-cancer potential of lithium on prostate
cancer was investigated in this study. METHODS: Multiple
prostate cancer cell lines were treated with lithium chloride
(LiCl). Cell proliferation and cell cycle distribution were
analysed. DNA replication was determined using BrdU labeling
assay. Genome-wide screening of gene expression was performed
using cDNA microarray assay. GSK-3beta gene-specific silencing
was conducted using small interferencing RNA (siRNA)
transfection. E2 factor (E2F) transactivation was evaluated
using reporter gene assay and E2F-DNA interaction was
determined with chromatin-immunoprecipitation assay (ChIP).
RESULTS: LiCl significantly inhibited cell proliferation, which
was associated with reduced DNA replication and S-phase cell
cycle arrest. LiCl significantly decreased the expression of
multiple DNA replication-related genes, including cell division
cycle 6 (cdc6), cyclin A, cyclin E, and cdc25C, which are
regulated by E2F factor during cell cycle. A novel GSK-3-
specific inhibitor TDZD-8 and GSK-3beta siRNA also suppressed
the expression of these E2F target genes, indicating that LiCl-
induced anti-cancer effect was associated with GSK-3beta
inhibition. Furthermore, LiCl suppressed E2F transactivation by
interrupting the interaction of E2F1 factor with its target
gene promoter. CONCLUSIONS: These data indicated that LiCl
suppresses cancer cell proliferation by disrupting E2F-DNA
interaction and subsequent E2F-mediated gene expression in
prostate cancer. Prostate (c) 2007 Wiley-Liss, Inc."
Isn't it interesting how finasteride also limits the spread of prostate cancer?
» BB wrote:
»
» -lithium appears very safe as a topical AND oral supplement-
»
» Please stay away from lithium!!!!
» Lithium is used in the drug therapy of major depression. It is well known
» for its very narrow therapeutic range and its strong side-effects. It
» should not be used as an oral supplement.
»
» I don´t know about topical application but I would stay away from it as
» well.
»
» Should be hard to get too...
|
John The Revelator
17.09.2007, 16:57
@ BostonBaldy
|
Four provisos for anyone interested in doing this |
On Sept. 25, Intercytex will hold a big press conference and, after initial remarks by Dr. Kemp, from behind a curtain will step out one man:
Bruce Willis.
|
Jtelecom
17.09.2007, 17:58
@ TiggersHair
|
Four provisos for anyone interested in doing this |
"Should be hard to get too..."
Nope. It is quite easy to get. A Google search will result in hundreds of suppliers.
---
Jtelecom
5 Strip Surgeries (4 Bosley, 1 AlviArmani)
3 FUE Surgeries (2 Undisclosed, 1 AlviArmani)
(Latest FUE Surgery: June 6, 2008 - AlviArmani Los Angeles) |
growfast
18.09.2007, 14:46
@ BostonBaldy
|
Homemade Follicular Neogenesis |
A few years ago I smacked my head on the corner of some gym equipment. I had a small wound in the recessed vellous area near my hairline. Eventually a single terminal hair grew there that stood out against the vellous hairs. I've always wanted to try finding a tool similar to a dermaroller, but with deeper penetration, that I could use to wound my bald and thin areas, but I'm not confident that I would know the exact depth required to encourage new growth. Other variables are probably involved as well.
» Hi all,
»
» So I've been lurking on another website on hair loss and many there have
» devised a homemade follicular neogenesis procedure. This is based on the
» work by Cotsarelis and Fuchs, as well as the new startup Follica, Inc.
» It'd be great to know what you all think of this procedure.
»
» 1. Mix lithium orotate or chloride (1 1/2 crushed pills) with diemythl
» sulfoxide or DMSO (1 tsp of liquid) and caffeine (2 tsps of powder). Mix
» thoroughly in a bowl. These topicals appear to increase WNT signalling.
»
» 2. Stir powder mixture into na 8 oz solution of 50% water plus 50% ethyl
» alcohol. This solution should increase absorption by decreasing particle
» size of powder. After thoroughly mixing pour solution in a spray bottle or
» dropper.
»
» 3. Use a dermaroller or lancet to gently wound the scalp. This creates
» wounding on the scalp that MAY mimic the wounding necessary to create-stem
» cell like conditions for new hair growth.
»
» 4. Spray solution directly on scalp.
»
» Do spraying and wounding several times a week. What is exciting about this
» procedure is that the goal of this is NOT to keep your hair but rather
» create new hair by inducing WNT protein signaling (hence the topicals plus
» wounding).
»
» Thoughts/comments?
»
» Best,
» BB
|
BostonBaldy
18.09.2007, 15:49
@ growfast
|
Homemade Follicular Neogenesis |
There are so many anecdotes about wounds and new hair growth -- even in areas susceptible to DHT -- that I believe it is a viable solution to baldness. Just browse the internet and you'll find out what I'm talking about it.
The question I have is -- what kind of wound was it? How DEEP was the wound? Based on your experience do you think a lancet (like a dermaroller but you can go deeper) would work? Keep in mind that lancing/dermaroller doesn't quite leave an open wound -- just a microscopic wound that (quickly?) repairs itself.
» A few years ago I smacked my head on the corner of some gym equipment. I
» had a small wound in the recessed vellous area near my hairline.
» Eventually a single terminal hair grew there that stood out against the
» vellous hairs. I've always wanted to try finding a tool similar to a
» dermaroller, but with deeper penetration, that I could use to wound my
» bald and thin areas, but I'm not confident that I would know the exact
» depth required to encourage new growth. Other variables are probably
» involved as well.
|
benji
18.09.2007, 19:18
@ BostonBaldy
|
wounding/ hair growing anecdotes |
I too have read about strange hairgrowth on men who have been in car accidents, etc.
Stephen Foote used to post a medical article about "ligature" or somethhing like that that was done to a woman or man who had alopecia (cutting the blood supply to the scalp by some sort of surgical means) and the hair grew better.
I seen a guy once clerking at a Hollywood video store who had an obvious, bad head wound. His skull had a big dent in it over about a fifth of the total surface area. He looked just pitiful. You tried not to stare at it, but the look of the wound made you think of PAIN in blinking lights. There was good hair in the wound in the dent (the dent was shockingly deep.........I bet it was at least half an inch into the skull and a good three to four inches wide at its widest. Hair looked pretty thick in the dent too as opposed to just normal density in other places on his head. I'll never forget seeing that guy, as I felt so sorrry for him. He must have been accustomed to people staring at his head. He kept the hair buzzed and I wondered why he didn't grow the hair long over it as an attempt to hide it, but the skin didn't look right (almosts as if there was a first or second degree burn there a few years before) and it looked a big moist, so maybe he had to put some sort of ointment like neosporin on it. And there he was working, I hoped he had medical insurance (I think about stuff like this when I see people)......
Follica merely has to test this on someone and report the results. Until then, we are all guessing. My problem with them being able to turn a profit off such a product is that there is no real proprietary step. If one test subject got it done and it grew hair, all he'd have to do is go online and blab his mouth about how deep the wounds were or how the skin was dermabrated and how the healing was managed (i.e. left completely alone for X-amount of hours or days) and then people would have it. As Boston Baldy has stated, there are a few known, obtainaible subtances that induce WNT signalling.........................
It would seem to lead to men doing it at home in the long run if it did work really well.....................and that would be problematic for any company.
|
growfast
18.09.2007, 22:16
@ BostonBaldy
|
Homemade Follicular Neogenesis |
I really have no idea how deep the wound was. I hit my head. There was a spot of blood. I probably picked the scab off after a few days. I had no idea that I'd grow a hair there, so I didn't think about it. I don't remember how long before I noticed the hair. Maybe a couple of months.
» There are so many anecdotes about wounds and new hair growth -- even in
» areas susceptible to DHT -- that I believe it is a viable solution to
» baldness. Just browse the internet and you'll find out what I'm talking
» about it.
»
» The question I have is -- what kind of wound was it? How DEEP was the
» wound? Based on your experience do you think a lancet (like a dermaroller
» but you can go deeper) would work? Keep in mind that lancing/dermaroller
» doesn't quite leave an open wound -- just a microscopic wound that
» (quickly?) repairs itself.
»
» » A few years ago I smacked my head on the corner of some gym equipment.
» I
» » had a small wound in the recessed vellous area near my hairline.
» » Eventually a single terminal hair grew there that stood out against the
» » vellous hairs. I've always wanted to try finding a tool similar to a
» » dermaroller, but with deeper penetration, that I could use to wound my
» » bald and thin areas, but I'm not confident that I would know the exact
» » depth required to encourage new growth. Other variables are probably
» » involved as well.
|
widowswannabe
14.05.2008, 23:51
@ growfast
|
Homemade Follicular Neogenesis |
Did anyone try this? I dont see the danger. Also, I dont see the point in waiting for follica when it is very slim that it will be successful. It sounds like a process that some people on the board could grasp.
|
TAGOHL
15.05.2008, 10:35
@ Ahab
|
BUT JTR . . . |
» BTW wouldn't there be more to balding than testosterone levels?
Yes, adequate hormone levels are not enough to cause MPB in and of themselves.
» OK--I didn't realize that the newly generated follicles don't start over
» again from square one, so to speak.
This remains to be answered.
|
TAGOHL
15.05.2008, 10:43
@ John The Revelator
|
Kurt Stenn and George Costarialis are no fools guys................... |
» I believe that, if the original cells are from the DHT-susceptible areas,
» the process is only creating de novo follicles (and in that sense going
» through an embryonic follicle-formation pathway), but the cells are still
» coming from DHT-susceptible cell lines, so the resulting follicles
» would be DHT-susceptible and would ultimately fall victim to MPB.
I think they are likely to be DHT sensitive as well. But I don't think this necessarily means they succumb right away. This is really an impossible question to answer without trying it, since there's still a lot that isn't known about the cellular processes involved in MPB.
This is obviously a crucial question. One possible workaround is to use 5AR inhibitors or growth stimulars to maintain the new hair follicles. Personally, I don't want to have to do that.
|
TAGOHL
15.05.2008, 10:52
@ John The Revelator
|
Kurt Stenn and George Costarialis are no fools guys................... |
» Of course, the big picture point here is that why would these doctors even
» risk this, when they can easily use cells from the DHT-resistant "donor
» area" to accomplish the same thing?
Because thus far, that approach doesn't seem to be working out too well. In fact, it's been one failure after another, despite the fact that Jahoda discovered this basic concept 25 years ago, and we're still waiting for something to come out of it.
I think Follica's approach is far more elagent than a HM-like solution. The DHT sensitivity issue is obviously a hurdle, though.
|
cal
15.05.2008, 17:39
@ TAGOHL
|
Kurt Stenn and George Costarialis are no fools guys................... |
The big DHT exposure starts in puberty. I'd be surprised if any of us hadn't seen it begin to get going by age 13.
Once it got going, none of us even fought it with ANYTHING for DHT until we were 18 at the earliest, and usually much later.
And even then, how many more years was it before the DHT damage was really causing cosmetic ruin?
If we even get as long with the new hairs as we had with the originals, most of us are still already set for 10-20 years with any effort put into keeping them. Especially if ASC-J9 (the new AR-attacking topical in testing) gets to market and works acceptably.
|
fckhrls
15.05.2008, 18:45
@ cal
|
Kurt Stenn and George Costarialis are no fools guys................... |
» The big DHT exposure starts in puberty. I'd be surprised if any of us
» hadn't seen it begin to get going by age 13.
»
» Once it got going, none of us even fought it with ANYTHING for DHT until
» we were 18 at the earliest, and usually much later.
I was lucky enough to get on antiadrogens (Propecia and Nizoral) about 2 years after I started noticing my hair thinning (about 19-20 years of age). I still have a cosmetically acceptable (you can't tell that I'm thinning unless my hair gets very long) head of hair nearly 10 years later, and I don't consider myself a great responder to those class of drugs; I didn't really get much regrowth, I just kept what I still had. If Follica is able to produce hair that is still receptive to DHT, it shouldn't be a problem for those of us that are just average responders to antiadrogens (and that is, by most studys' account, about 90%). I'd be happy to get a full head of DHT susceptible hair.
|
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