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GoneWithTheHair

Australia,
06.06.2013, 09:17
 

Dr Nigam Fgf9 thoughts (Hair Multiplication & Stem Cells Treatment)

Dr Nigam

Could you give us your thoughts on cots new discovery and how it could possibly help your HM treatment. I read on TheBTruth that you use Fgf9 in your growth factors already. Could extra dermabrasion or abrading the skin before HM injections possibly improve HM results?

thanks.




GoneWithTheHair is located in AUSTRALIA and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
Rob35

06.06.2013, 12:13

@ GoneWithTheHair

Dr Nigam Fgf9 thoughts

I am interested in this as well dr. nigam your honest thoughts. Is there a chance for FGF9 to grow hair. We know about wound healing but what about hair.




Rob35 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
shivers20

06.06.2013, 18:20

@ GoneWithTheHair

Dr Nigam Fgf9 thoughts

.




shivers20 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
drnigam

07.06.2013, 15:32

@ GoneWithTheHair

Dr Nigam Fgf9 thoughts

GWH,ROB,SHIVERS,
Yes ,it makes sense to do a miniclinical trial with various compounds...,like fgf9,antiandrogens,antimast cells,pgd2, etc.by wounding with dermaroller after application of local anaesthetic cream or after applying retinoic acid for few days to peel of skin..

WHAT I FIND INTERESTING IS...THE PROBLEM OF TOPICAL PREPARATIONS AND THEIR USE DIRECTLY ON THE AGA SCALP ZONE..CAN BE TAKEN CARE OF WITH LITTLE SKIN ABRASION..
with application of retinoic acid,microdermabrasion,glycolic peel,dermaroller after application of local anesthetic..

The skin abrasion serves two purpose..

1)As we know,the wounding of the skin gives a window period to utilize(WITH VARIOUS COMPOUNDS) and switch the follicle stemcells to hair follicle neogenesis mode..this is called switching of quiescent stemcells(MOSTLY FOLLICLE BULGE STEMCELLS) to progenitor and amplifying cells to a particular differentiated state..to heal the wound or create a follicle..

NOW THERE ARE MANY COMPOUNDS WHICH CAN BE USED TO TRIGGER THIS PROCESS..according to cotsarelis,fgf9 is one such compound which up regulates the wnt pathway..

but many other compounds in combination can be used for better efficacy..
and this approach of utilizing window period of wounding.. is exciting..

2)This skin abrasion can also be utilized to penetrate and utilise other compounds like,RU,OC,FINA,TM,GROWTH FACTORS (FGF9,FGF2,FGF7,FOLLISTATIN,WNT'S,VEGF ETC),ANTI MICROINFLAMMATION,ANTIANDROGENS,EVEN MY AUTOLOGOUS STEMCELL SOLUTION,DP CELLS ETC.
YES UR RIGHT gwh..I MAY DO A SMALL TEST TO SEE WHETHER THE WOUNDING OF THE SKIN WITH MICROABRASION ,WILL SHOW ANY IMPROVEMENT IN RESULT WITH MY PROGENITOR STEMCELLS,DP CELLS.

CLINICS HAVE BEEN USING IN THE PAST DERMAROLLER WITH APPLICATION OF CERTAIN PRODUCTS LIKE ANTIANDROGENS,MINOX,PEPTIDES ETC.FOR THE SAME PURPOSE..TO CREATE WOUND AND ACTIVATE STEMCELLS..

Cotsarelis suggests ..fgf9 trigger in the wounding window period..but as it has not been tested on human scalp,and is being tested at preclinical level..we will have to wait and watch.

But my personal opinion is no single product as stand alone can do the job..
combination of compounds may yield better results..

on today..the best efficacy of new hair growth is possible with trichogenic stemcells,trichogenic dp cells..

Yes this wounding window period makes sense..and efficacy of my HM can improve..theoretically..

Why you should believe me is because..i am probably the only one, apart from cotsarelis who has used fg9,fg2,fg7...in my mini clinical trial and i can tell you ,even if i add other growth factors..still i cannot see any significant results..regards hair growth..yes my trial was with injections and not utilizing window period of wounding..will let you know..when i do the same..and report the efficacy change..

Since,,new medical procedures do not come under purview fda,unlike for newer drug trial..it makes easy and less expensive, at my end to to do mini clinical trial at my medical facility,with the nod of regulatory committees..to test any promising new compound as apart of medical process on human scalp..and if it shows some potential for hair growth..only than i move forward..


Originally Posted by GoneWithTheHair

Dr Nigam

Could you give us your thoughts on cots new discovery and how it could possibly help your HM treatment. I read on TheBTruth that you use Fgf9 in your growth factors already. Could extra dermabrasion or abrading the skin before HM injections possibly improve HM results?

thanks.




drnigam has 1 Personal Journal(s). Click here to view
drnigam is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: YES
email hairsite@aol.com to arrange a meeting.


Post reply
jarjarbinx

07.06.2013, 15:57

@ drnigam

Dr Nigam Fgf9 thoughts

Dr. Nigam one problem is that wounding does not produce some key growth factors including Wnt7a. I think that wounding produces one of either VGEF or KGF but I don't think it produces both. I could be wrong but I don't think you're going to get very far without Wnt7a and VEGF and KGF.


GWH,ROB,SHIVERS,
Yes ,it makes sense to do a miniclinical trial with various compounds...,like fgf9,antiandrogens,antimast cells,pgd2, etc.by wounding with dermaroller after application of local anaesthetic cream or after applying retinoic acid for few days to peel of skin..

WHAT I FIND INTERESTING IS...THE PROBLEM OF TOPICAL PREPARATIONS AND THEIR USE DIRECTLY ON THE AGA SCALP ZONE..CAN BE TAKEN CARE OF WITH LITTLE SKIN ABRASION..
with application of retinoic acid,microdermabrasion,glycolic peel,dermaroller after application of local anesthetic..

The skin abrasion serves two purpose..

1)As we know,the wounding of the skin gives a window period to utilize(WITH VARIOUS COMPOUNDS) and switch the follicle stemcells to hair follicle neogenesis mode..this is called switching of quiescent stemcells(MOSTLY FOLLICLE BULGE STEMCELLS) to progenitor and amplifying cells to a particular differentiated state..to heal the wound or create a follicle..

NOW THERE ARE MANY COMPOUNDS WHICH CAN BE USED TO TRIGGER THIS PROCESS..according to cotsarelis,fgf9 is one such compound which up regulates the wnt pathway..

but many other compounds in combination can be used for better efficacy..
and this approach of utilizing window period of wounding.. is exciting..

2)This skin abrasion can also be utilized to penetrate and utilise other compounds like,RU,OC,FINA,TM,GROWTH FACTORS (FGF9,FGF2,FGF7,FOLLISTATIN,WNT'S,VEGF ETC),ANTI MICROINFLAMMATION,ANTIANDROGENS,EVEN MY AUTOLOGOUS STEMCELL SOLUTION,DP CELLS ETC.
YES UR RIGHT gwh..I MAY DO A SMALL TEST TO SEE WHETHER THE WOUNDING OF THE SKIN WITH MICROABRASION ,WILL SHOW ANY IMPROVEMENT IN RESULT WITH MY PROGENITOR STEMCELLS,DP CELLS.

CLINICS HAVE BEEN USING IN THE PAST DERMAROLLER WITH APPLICATION OF CERTAIN PRODUCTS LIKE ANTIANDROGENS,MINOX,PEPTIDES ETC.FOR THE SAME PURPOSE..TO CREATE WOUND AND ACTIVATE STEMCELLS..

Cotsarelis suggests ..fgf9 trigger in the wounding window period..but as it has not been tested on human scalp,and is being tested at preclinical level..we will have to wait and watch.

But my personal opinion is no single product as stand alone can do the job..
combination of compounds may yield better results..

on today..the best efficacy of new hair growth is possible with trichogenic stemcells,trichogenic dp cells..

Yes this wounding window period makes sense..and efficacy of my HM can improve..theoretically..

Why you should believe me is because..i am probably the only one, apart from cotsarelis who has used fg9,fg2,fg7...in my mini clinical trial and i can tell you ,even if i add other growth factors..still i cannot see any significant results..regards hair growth..yes my trial was with injections and not utilizing window period of wounding..will let you know..when i do the same..and report the efficacy change..

Since,,new medical procedures do not come under purview fda,unlike for newer drug trial..it makes easy and less expensive, at my end to to do mini clinical trial at my medical facility,with the nod of regulatory committees..to test any promising new compound as apart of medical process on human scalp..and if it shows some potential for hair growth..only than i move forward..


Originally Posted by GoneWithTheHair

Dr Nigam

Could you give us your thoughts on cots new discovery and how it could possibly help your HM treatment. I read on TheBTruth that you use Fgf9 in your growth factors already. Could extra dermabrasion or abrading the skin before HM injections possibly improve HM results?

thanks.

Originally Posted by drnigam





jarjarbinx is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
appleguy

07.06.2013, 16:37

@ jarjarbinx

Dr Nigam Fgf9 thoughts

Frankly I only have faith in Dr. Nigam now, feels like groundhog day with some new wonder drug or treatment leaves the whole board fighting for optimism with the whole thing fizzling out come phase II. Also Dr Nigam is the only person who is
A: carpet bombing the problem with multiple solutions.
B: Trying new things out and fast on real people.
B: NOT in this for the money. I swear to god, most of these researchers are in to make money from research grants and nothing else. I wouldn't be surprised if many would steer away from 'a sure thing' as that's their source of income lost.

Dr. Nigam. What are your thoughts on the Histogen thing?
Also with what you have personally been working on lately are you still hopeful on a successful HM treatment in a years time or have new results put that timeframe back at all.

All the best.




appleguy is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
jarjarbinx

07.06.2013, 17:09
(edited by jarjarbinx, 07.06.2013, 17:42)

@ appleguy

Dr Nigam Fgf9 thoughts

I also appreciate Dr. Nigam's efforts too, but I am right about wounding not producing key growth factors. I think that the key growth factor that wounding does produce is VEGF but I don't think it produces Wnt7a or KGF and IMHO these are the 3 big boys of growth factors. At least it does produce VEGF but it would be helpful to get KGF and Wnt7a into the mix somehow.




Originally Posted by appleguy

Frankly I only have faith in Dr. Nigam now, feels like groundhog day with some new wonder drug or treatment leaves the whole board fighting for optimism with the whole thing fizzling out come phase II. Also Dr Nigam is the only person who is
A: carpet bombing the problem with multiple solutions.
B: Trying new things out and fast on real people.
B: NOT in this for the money. I swear to god, most of these researchers are in to make money from research grants and nothing else. I wouldn't be surprised if many would steer away from 'a sure thing' as that's their source of income lost.

Dr. Nigam. What are your thoughts on the Histogen thing?
Also with what you have personally been working on lately are you still hopeful on a successful HM treatment in a years time or have new results put that timeframe back at all.

All the best.





jarjarbinx is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
KO

07.06.2013, 19:43

@ drnigam

Dr Nigam Fgf9 thoughts


Why you should believe me is because..i am probably the only one, apart from cotsarelis who has used fg9,fg2,fg7...in my mini clinical trial and i can tell you ,even if i add other growth factors..still i cannot see any significant results..regards hair growth..yes my trial was with injections and not utilizing window period of wounding..will let you know..when i do the same..and report the efficacy change..


Originally Posted by drnigam


Interesting, so the growth factor injections alone did not result in notable hair growth? Wounding does appear to be key.




KO is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
jarjarbinx

08.06.2013, 00:43

@ KO

Dr Nigam Fgf9 thoughts

We hope. It is possible that wounding won't make much of a difference either.



Why you should believe me is because..i am probably the only one, apart from cotsarelis who has used fg9,fg2,fg7...in my mini clinical trial and i can tell you ,even if i add other growth factors..still i cannot see any significant results..regards hair growth..yes my trial was with injections and not utilizing window period of wounding..will let you know..when i do the same..and report the efficacy change..


Originally Posted by drnigam


Originally Posted by KO


Interesting, so the growth factor injections alone did not result in notable hair growth? Wounding does appear to be key.





jarjarbinx is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
jarjarbinx

08.06.2013, 00:47

@ drnigam

Dr Nigam Fgf9 thoughts

* OK Dr. Nigam so try "wounding" but what is wrong with also doing the mimetic thing like Cots did - lithium gluconate??? The could activate the Wnt7a pathway.

* I know that wounding will produce VEGF so that will be taken care of but it would be nice to see the Wnt7a pathway activated as well, and maybe some KGF as well.

* Or maybe use wounding, KGF, and FGF9 because I think that FGF9 works upstream to activate the Wnt pathway anyway so FGF9 would perhaps cause some Wnt production.


Please give it some thought.




GWH,ROB,SHIVERS,
Yes ,it makes sense to do a miniclinical trial with various compounds...,like fgf9,antiandrogens,antimast cells,pgd2, etc.by wounding with dermaroller after application of local anaesthetic cream or after applying retinoic acid for few days to peel of skin..

WHAT I FIND INTERESTING IS...THE PROBLEM OF TOPICAL PREPARATIONS AND THEIR USE DIRECTLY ON THE AGA SCALP ZONE..CAN BE TAKEN CARE OF WITH LITTLE SKIN ABRASION..
with application of retinoic acid,microdermabrasion,glycolic peel,dermaroller after application of local anesthetic..

The skin abrasion serves two purpose..

1)As we know,the wounding of the skin gives a window period to utilize(WITH VARIOUS COMPOUNDS) and switch the follicle stemcells to hair follicle neogenesis mode..this is called switching of quiescent stemcells(MOSTLY FOLLICLE BULGE STEMCELLS) to progenitor and amplifying cells to a particular differentiated state..to heal the wound or create a follicle..

NOW THERE ARE MANY COMPOUNDS WHICH CAN BE USED TO TRIGGER THIS PROCESS..according to cotsarelis,fgf9 is one such compound which up regulates the wnt pathway..

but many other compounds in combination can be used for better efficacy..
and this approach of utilizing window period of wounding.. is exciting..

2)This skin abrasion can also be utilized to penetrate and utilise other compounds like,RU,OC,FINA,TM,GROWTH FACTORS (FGF9,FGF2,FGF7,FOLLISTATIN,WNT'S,VEGF ETC),ANTI MICROINFLAMMATION,ANTIANDROGENS,EVEN MY AUTOLOGOUS STEMCELL SOLUTION,DP CELLS ETC.
YES UR RIGHT gwh..I MAY DO A SMALL TEST TO SEE WHETHER THE WOUNDING OF THE SKIN WITH MICROABRASION ,WILL SHOW ANY IMPROVEMENT IN RESULT WITH MY PROGENITOR STEMCELLS,DP CELLS.

CLINICS HAVE BEEN USING IN THE PAST DERMAROLLER WITH APPLICATION OF CERTAIN PRODUCTS LIKE ANTIANDROGENS,MINOX,PEPTIDES ETC.FOR THE SAME PURPOSE..TO CREATE WOUND AND ACTIVATE STEMCELLS..

Cotsarelis suggests ..fgf9 trigger in the wounding window period..but as it has not been tested on human scalp,and is being tested at preclinical level..we will have to wait and watch.

But my personal opinion is no single product as stand alone can do the job..
combination of compounds may yield better results..

on today..the best efficacy of new hair growth is possible with trichogenic stemcells,trichogenic dp cells..

Yes this wounding window period makes sense..and efficacy of my HM can improve..theoretically..

Why you should believe me is because..i am probably the only one, apart from cotsarelis who has used fg9,fg2,fg7...in my mini clinical trial and i can tell you ,even if i add other growth factors..still i cannot see any significant results..regards hair growth..yes my trial was with injections and not utilizing window period of wounding..will let you know..when i do the same..and report the efficacy change..

Since,,new medical procedures do not come under purview fda,unlike for newer drug trial..it makes easy and less expensive, at my end to to do mini clinical trial at my medical facility,with the nod of regulatory committees..to test any promising new compound as apart of medical process on human scalp..and if it shows some potential for hair growth..only than i move forward..


Originally Posted by GoneWithTheHair

Dr Nigam

Could you give us your thoughts on cots new discovery and how it could possibly help your HM treatment. I read on TheBTruth that you use Fgf9 in your growth factors already. Could extra dermabrasion or abrading the skin before HM injections possibly improve HM results?

thanks.

Originally Posted by drnigam





jarjarbinx is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
Freddie555

08.06.2013, 21:24

@ KO

Dr Nigam Fgf9 thoughts


Interesting, so the growth factor injections alone did not result in notable hair growth? Wounding does appear to be key.


Isn't wounding what occurs when the needle is injected to deliver DS/DSC cells into the scalp?

Replicel has an injector apparatus that delivers a fixed amount of cells into each spot it injects. They're also developing an even better electronic foot-peddle operated pen injector apparatus to lay the cells in on a track as the needle retracts instead of jamming the cells into a mass during injection. All those micro-wounds don't seem to be producing results.

Its already apparent that PRP + wounding with a derma roller does not do much.

I like Dr. Nigam's approach of carpet bombing the problem in the hopes of finding something that works. Its obvious the one-at-a-time trials, though scientific in their approach, is getting us nowhere.




Freddie555 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO

---
"When true Hair Multiplication comes, it will arise out of the East." - John The Revelator, Feb. 18, 2001


Post reply
jarjarbinx

08.06.2013, 21:54

@ Freddie555

Dr Nigam Fgf9 thoughts

I think you're probably right Freddie. I hope we're wrong but I'm concerned that we might be right. Dr. Hitzig is using a mesogun to deliver ACell + PRP.
He is doing many many puncture wounds in a short amount of time. And we all know that we are not satisfied with the results. He needs more of the key growth factors. I checked into it and neither Acell or PRP produces Wnts, and neither of them have KGF. I think Wnt7a and KGF are two of the most important ingredients and Hitzig is not producing either of them. Carpet-bombing is the way to go. Throw everything at the problem, is what I think.



Interesting, so the growth factor injections alone did not result in notable hair growth? Wounding does appear to be key.

Originally Posted by Freddie555


Isn't wounding what occurs when the needle is injected to deliver DS/DSC cells into the scalp?

Replicel has an injector apparatus that delivers a fixed amount of cells into each spot it injects. They're also developing an even better electronic foot-peddle operated pen injector apparatus to lay the cells in on a track as the needle retracts instead of jamming the cells into a mass during injection. All those micro-wounds don't seem to be producing results.

Its already apparent that PRP + wounding with a derma roller does not do much.

I like Dr. Nigam's approach of carpet bombing the problem in the hopes of finding something that works. Its obvious the one-at-a-time trials, though scientific in their approach, is getting us nowhere.





jarjarbinx is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
KO

08.06.2013, 22:01

@ Freddie555

Dr Nigam Fgf9 thoughts

These micro wounds aren't enough, it needs to be an open wound that doesn't close on itself.




KO is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
Freddie555

08.06.2013, 22:51

@ KO

Dr Nigam Fgf9 thoughts

like a gun shot wound




Freddie555 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO

---
"When true Hair Multiplication comes, it will arise out of the East." - John The Revelator, Feb. 18, 2001


Post reply
GoneWithTheHair

Australia,
10.06.2013, 09:54

@ drnigam

Dr Nigam Fgf9 thoughts

what is the actual window period (seconds,minutes,hours,days?) after initiation of the wounding. Has anyone seen or heard any reference to this or have an educated guess?




GoneWithTheHair is located in AUSTRALIA and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
KO

10.06.2013, 13:37

@ GoneWithTheHair

Dr Nigam Fgf9 thoughts

I suspect it is a few days if not longer. Here they apply the drug for 11 days.

I don't know how much you've read, but this is a good starting point: https://www.google.com/patents/WO2011031990A1?cl=en&dq=intermittent+and+pulse+lithium&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Ig22UdeFGomArAHry4CICQ&ved=0CDsQ6AEwAQ


Search for "EXAMPLE 31 : CLINICAL EVALUATION OF LITHIUM GLUCONATE AND INTEGUMENTAL PERTURBATION IN HAIR FOLLICLE REGROVVTH"


36.3 PROTOCOL SUMMARY

[00705J Subject receive lithium gluconate 8%, gel (Lithioderm) or placebo ( a vehicle control with a composition the same as Lithioderm minus the active substance) to be applied topically twice-daily (morning and evening, at least 8 hours apart) at an approximate dose of volume of 0.1 mL applied twice daily to three sites, for a total intended volume of 0.6 mL. Due to droplet size variability, this translates to an actual total volume range of 0.41 to 1.32 mL. [00706] In treatment period 1 , application of drug continues until the end of Day 1 1 . The sites are biopsied at Day 14 (4 mm punch), and the wounds allowed to heal by secondary intention. Application of drug continues in treatment period 2, from Day 17 until Day 35. Subjects may be asked to return on Day 84 and Day 168 for repeat photography sessions. Monthly safety follow-up phone calls may be performed on Days 1 12 and 140. On Day 168, the initial punch biopsy sites is re-biopsied and sutured (5 mm, or 6 mm at the discretion of the practitioner and if in accordance with the subject's wish in order to assure scar removal, that might follow the first biopsy, and any photography tattoo removal). Subjects should be seen on Day 182, when suture removal is planned. For the purposes of this protocol, the end of the treatment period is defined as the last clinical visit of the last subject.

[00707] In order to ensure procedural practicalities, four subjects are treated initially (as per protocol) and must reach Day 14 (and completed the first biopsy) without operationally significant incident before any subsequent subject is treated.

36.4 DISCUSSION OF PROTOCOL DESIGN, INCLUDING THE CHOICE OF CONTROL GROUPS





KO is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
superhl

10.06.2013, 14:19

@ KO

Dr Nigam Fgf9 thoughts

"what is the actual window period (seconds,minutes,hours,days?) after initiation of the wounding. Has anyone seen or heard any reference to this or have an educated guess?

Several of us tried the wounding procedure several years ago. Seems like we waited 4 days but we did not get much growth. Maybe the secret is wounding and applying something that prevents the wound from healing and then applying the solution on a specific day. The wound has to stay in an embryonic state for a certain amount of time( I think). A lot of us tried different days but still nothing to write home about. I believe the process they are utilizing is very simple; however, what little info we receive is distorted intentionally. It has to be the process and not so much the protocols (although)they matter too!




superhl is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
KO

10.06.2013, 18:49

@ superhl

Dr Nigam Fgf9 thoughts

Originally Posted by superhl

"what is the actual window period (seconds,minutes,hours,days?) after initiation of the wounding. Has anyone seen or heard any reference to this or have an educated guess?

Several of us tried the wounding procedure several years ago. Seems like we waited 4 days but we did not get much growth. Maybe the secret is wounding and applying something that prevents the wound from healing and then applying the solution on a specific day. The wound has to stay in an embryonic state for a certain amount of time( I think). A lot of us tried different days but still nothing to write home about. I believe the process they are utilizing is very simple; however, what little info we receive is distorted intentionally. It has to be the process and not so much the protocols (although)they matter too!


I cannot confirm, but I believe the protocol written on "Example 31" in the link I posted is the one that they used in Phase 2 trials. It's written in a lot of detail, and matches the clinical trial info.

Here, when they did the dermabrasion, they applied Li immediately, and twice daily for 11 days. When they did the full thickness excision, they waited 4 days, but obviously you did not go that deep.

What strikes me are Bernat Olle's comments:

“We’ve been able to consistently show that we crate substantial new hair follicles in humans, and that’s something that no other approach in hair loss as far as I am aware has been able to achieve,” Olle says. “That’s a critical step. The goal of some of those early trials has been to test the hypothesis of the mechanism that we had seen in mice.”


I presume Follica won't outright lie, but this is a very clear statement.




KO is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
shivers20

10.06.2013, 19:24

@ KO

Dr Nigam Fgf9 thoughts

I dont understand why they dont release those freakin' results backing up that statement.. Im going to assume that results were poor. Very frustrating!




shivers20 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
jarjarbinx

10.06.2013, 20:47

@ KO

Dr Nigam Fgf9 thoughts

KO why have you not mentioned using VPA instead of lithium? Some people say VPA is more effective than lithium. What do you think?


I suspect it is a few days if not longer. Here they apply the drug for 11 days.

I don't know how much you've read, but this is a good starting point: https://www.google.com/patents/WO2011031990A1?cl=en&dq=intermittent+and+pulse+lithium&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Ig22UdeFGomArAHry4CICQ&ved=0CDsQ6AEwAQ


Search for "EXAMPLE 31 : CLINICAL EVALUATION OF LITHIUM GLUCONATE AND INTEGUMENTAL PERTURBATION IN HAIR FOLLICLE REGROVVTH"


36.3 PROTOCOL SUMMARY

[00705J Subject receive lithium gluconate 8%, gel (Lithioderm) or placebo ( a vehicle control with a composition the same as Lithioderm minus the active substance) to be applied topically twice-daily (morning and evening, at least 8 hours apart) at an approximate dose of volume of 0.1 mL applied twice daily to three sites, for a total intended volume of 0.6 mL. Due to droplet size variability, this translates to an actual total volume range of 0.41 to 1.32 mL. [00706] In treatment period 1 , application of drug continues until the end of Day 1 1 . The sites are biopsied at Day 14 (4 mm punch), and the wounds allowed to heal by secondary intention. Application of drug continues in treatment period 2, from Day 17 until Day 35. Subjects may be asked to return on Day 84 and Day 168 for repeat photography sessions. Monthly safety follow-up phone calls may be performed on Days 1 12 and 140. On Day 168, the initial punch biopsy sites is re-biopsied and sutured (5 mm, or 6 mm at the discretion of the practitioner and if in accordance with the subject's wish in order to assure scar removal, that might follow the first biopsy, and any photography tattoo removal). Subjects should be seen on Day 182, when suture removal is planned. For the purposes of this protocol, the end of the treatment period is defined as the last clinical visit of the last subject.

[00707] In order to ensure procedural practicalities, four subjects are treated initially (as per protocol) and must reach Day 14 (and completed the first biopsy) without operationally significant incident before any subsequent subject is treated.

36.4 DISCUSSION OF PROTOCOL DESIGN, INCLUDING THE CHOICE OF CONTROL GROUPS

Originally Posted by KO





jarjarbinx is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
Freddie555

11.06.2013, 01:05

@ KO

Dr Nigam Fgf9 thoughts


What strikes me are Bernat Olle's comments:

“We’ve been able to consistently show that we crate substantial new hair follicles in humans, and that’s something that no other approach in hair loss as far as I am aware has been able to achieve,” Olle says. “That’s a critical step. The goal of some of those early trials has been to test the hypothesis of the mechanism that we had seen in mice.”


Very interesting statement... if true.

Getting evidence in this field is like catching Bigfoot. Everyone claims to have seen one, yet nobody is able to grab one from the wild and put it on display.

Follica does have a patent on the use of a computer controlled laser firing machine that supposedly will drill holes in patterns on a bald guy's scalp. But then they have a patent on a sh&t load of other stuff too.




Freddie555 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO

---
"When true Hair Multiplication comes, it will arise out of the East." - John The Revelator, Feb. 18, 2001


Post reply
jarjarbinx

11.06.2013, 01:48

@ Freddie555

Dr Nigam Fgf9 thoughts

I can't even formulate a guess as to what developmental stage Follica is at.

They talk about FGF9 being a key growth factor but as far as I can tell they still haven't done the phase 1 safety study for FGF9 so if their end-game treatment will include FGF9 it may still have to start at phase 1.

On the other hand, they've known about FGF9 for years so I can't understand why they wouldn't have put it through phase 1 and phase 2 studies as part of the treatment that is already a phase 2 treatment.

And they're talking about growing new hairs with their Phase 2 treatment so it seems that, that phase 2 treatment should be a pretty good treatment since if it can grow "substantial new hair" that means it should also able to thicken the already existing hair since thickening existing hair is an easier biological task than growing new hair. So maybe that phase 2 treatment would be a revolutionary treatment that would satisfy most customers even if it won't regrow 100% of lost hair and even if it doesn't include FGF9. So maybe they shouldn't delay their phase 2 treatment from entering the market while they run FGF9 through phase 1 and phase 2 studies so it can catch up to their phase 2 treatment.

And the Follica maze continues.




What strikes me are Bernat Olle's comments:

“We’ve been able to consistently show that we crate substantial new hair follicles in humans, and that’s something that no other approach in hair loss as far as I am aware has been able to achieve,” Olle says. “That’s a critical step. The goal of some of those early trials has been to test the hypothesis of the mechanism that we had seen in mice.”


Originally Posted by Freddie555


Very interesting statement... if true.

Getting evidence in this field is like catching Bigfoot. Everyone claims to have seen one, yet nobody is able to grab one from the wild and put it on display.

Follica does have a patent on the use of a computer controlled laser firing machine that supposedly will drill holes in patterns on a bald guy's scalp. But then they have a patent on a sh&t load of other stuff too.





jarjarbinx is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
KO

11.06.2013, 02:30

@ Freddie555

Dr Nigam Fgf9 thoughts


What strikes me are Bernat Olle's comments:

“We’ve been able to consistently show that we crate substantial new hair follicles in humans, and that’s something that no other approach in hair loss as far as I am aware has been able to achieve,” Olle says. “That’s a critical step. The goal of some of those early trials has been to test the hypothesis of the mechanism that we had seen in mice.”


Originally Posted by Freddie555


Very interesting statement... if true.

Getting evidence in this field is like catching Bigfoot. Everyone claims to have seen one, yet nobody is able to grab one from the wild and put it on display.

Follica does have a patent on the use of a computer controlled laser firing machine that supposedly will drill holes in patterns on a bald guy's scalp. But then they have a patent on a sh&t load of other stuff too.


Assuming they're not flat out lying, that indicates a positive result for dermabrasion+lithium. However, some have tried just that and not seen anything with it. In any case, it appears they're not dead as previously thought.




KO is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
KO

11.06.2013, 02:34

@ jarjarbinx

Dr Nigam Fgf9 thoughts

No. They likely don't need to put the chemical through P1 trials. They didn't put lithium through P1 trials.

And they're talking about growing new hairs with their Phase 2 treatment so it seems that, that phase 2 treatment should be a pretty good treatment since if it can grow "substantial new hair" that means it should also able to thicken the already existing hair since thickening existing hair is an easier biological task than growing new hair. So maybe that phase 2 treatment would be a revolutionary treatment that would satisfy most customers even if it won't regrow 100% of lost hair and even if it doesn't include FGF9. So maybe they shouldn't delay their phase 2 treatment from entering the market while they run FGF9 through phase 1 and phase 2 studies so it can catch up to their phase 2 treatment.


Follica is NOT trying to revitalize miniaturized follicles, nor is it thickening up anything. They are creating follicles de novo.


I suspect their next test will be a device+lithium+wounding + possibly PGD2i or FGF+.




KO is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
cal

11.06.2013, 05:38

@ KO

Dr Nigam Fgf9 thoughts

Follica says they used dermbrasion+lithium to create "substantial new follicles". But they didn't say those follicles produced terminal hairs.

I'm betting they just created more vellus hairs that way. Or maybe even just proto-follicle structures that are not even well enough developed to produce vellus shafts.




cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
hairman2

11.06.2013, 05:39

@ cal

Dr Nigam Fgf9 thoughts

yea i bet so too... I dont have much faith in this fgf9 stuff at all.. not until they give us more than just their word for it.

Originally Posted by cal

Follica says they used dermbrasion+lithium to create "substantial new follicles". But they didn't say those follicles produced terminal hairs.

I'm betting they just created more vellus hairs that way. Or maybe even just proto-follicle structures that are not even well enough developed to produce vellus shafts.





hairman2 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
roger_that

MARYLAND,
11.06.2013, 08:18

@ KO

Dr Nigam Fgf9 thoughts


What strikes me are Bernat Olle's comments:

“We’ve been able to consistently show that we crate substantial new hair follicles in humans, and that’s something that no other approach in hair loss as far as I am aware has been able to achieve,” Olle says. “That’s a critical step. The goal of some of those early trials has been to test the hypothesis of the mechanism that we had seen in mice.”


Originally Posted by Freddie555


Very interesting statement... if true.

Getting evidence in this field is like catching Bigfoot. Everyone claims to have seen one, yet nobody is able to grab one from the wild and put it on display.

Follica does have a patent on the use of a computer controlled laser firing machine that supposedly will drill holes in patterns on a bald guy's scalp. But then they have a patent on a sh&t load of other stuff too.

Originally Posted by KO


Assuming they're not flat out lying, that indicates a positive result for dermabrasion+lithium. However, some have tried just that and not seen anything with it. In any case, it appears they're not dead as previously thought.


A big part of their business strategy is to patent devices. Although we know very well that there are already-existing ways to dermabrade the scalp, I think what Follica is trying to do is create so-called "proprietary" devices that they would then license to doctors.

This would guarantee a source of revenue.

If you think I'm oversimplifying this, consider that there is NO PATENT PROTECTION for medical procedures anymore in the US, since 1996.

So if someone patents a medical procedure, and then someone goes ahead and infringes it, the patent cannot be protected, period.

So Follica is patenting devices which it will then sell as "the only way to accomplish A, B and C".

I am sure that considerations like this entered into Follica's business strategy big time.




roger_that is located in MARYLAND and he is available to meet: YES
email hairsite@aol.com to arrange a meeting.


Post reply
hairman2

11.06.2013, 08:45

@ roger_that

Dr Nigam Fgf9 thoughts

which might also be the reason for their secrecy. revealing the procedural steps would open themselves up to competitors.



What strikes me are Bernat Olle's comments:

“We’ve been able to consistently show that we crate substantial new hair follicles in humans, and that’s something that no other approach in hair loss as far as I am aware has been able to achieve,” Olle says. “That’s a critical step. The goal of some of those early trials has been to test the hypothesis of the mechanism that we had seen in mice.”


Originally Posted by Freddie555


Very interesting statement... if true.

Getting evidence in this field is like catching Bigfoot. Everyone claims to have seen one, yet nobody is able to grab one from the wild and put it on display.

Follica does have a patent on the use of a computer controlled laser firing machine that supposedly will drill holes in patterns on a bald guy's scalp. But then they have a patent on a sh&t load of other stuff too.

Originally Posted by KO


Assuming they're not flat out lying, that indicates a positive result for dermabrasion+lithium. However, some have tried just that and not seen anything with it. In any case, it appears they're not dead as previously thought.

Originally Posted by roger_that


A big part of their business strategy is to patent devices. Although we know very well that there are already-existing ways to dermabrade the scalp, I think what Follica is trying to do is create so-called "proprietary" devices that they would then license to doctors.

This would guarantee a source of revenue.

If you think I'm oversimplifying this, consider that there is NO PATENT PROTECTION for medical procedures anymore in the US, since 1996.

So if someone patents a medical procedure, and then someone goes ahead and infringes it, the patent cannot be protected, period.

So Follica is patenting devices which it will then sell as "the only way to accomplish A, B and C".

I am sure that considerations like this entered into Follica's business strategy big time.





hairman2 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
KO

11.06.2013, 13:26

@ cal

Dr Nigam Fgf9 thoughts

Originally Posted by cal

Follica says they used dermbrasion+lithium to create "substantial new follicles". But they didn't say those follicles produced terminal hairs.

I'm betting they just created more vellus hairs that way. Or maybe even just proto-follicle structures that are not even well enough developed to produce vellus shafts.


Good point, I believe what Follica is looking for is what they call "neogenic-like hair follicles". Their description is:

As hair follicle development is a continuum and based on both histological and biochemical markers, at this time-point neogenic-like hair follicles are identified by fulfilling various criteria that include the following attributes: shorter length than vellus and/or vellus- like hair follicles, lack of a connection with a pre-existing pilosebaceous unit, lack of a pore at the skin surface, lack of a well-differentiated sebaceous gland, lack of a hair shaft, lack of an elastin-negative "streamer" or "dermal channel," and positive staining for 4'-6-Diamidino- 2-phenylindole (DAPI), alkaline phosphatase, BerEP4, and Ki67.


These seem to be very primitive follicles. I hope they are not growing Lanugo hair....:-D




KO is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
KO

11.06.2013, 13:54
(edited by KO, 11.06.2013, 14:21)

@ KO

Dr Nigam Fgf9 thoughts

I believe these are the results of the PLACEBO group in the Phase 2 clinical trials that Follica conducted. Here they only do dermabrasion + gel. No treatment, just vehicle.


Search for: "8. EXAMPLE:"
https://www.google.com/patents/WO2012078649A1?cl=en&dq=%22neogenic-like+hair+follicles%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=wF63UbuXCKmV8gGag4C4CA&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAA




KO is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
KO

11.06.2013, 14:45

@ KO

Dr Nigam Fgf9 thoughts

Table 10: Photographic hair count of all hair on Day 168 in target analysis area subjected to dermabrasion plus hydrogel treatment
[image]


Photographic hair count of non-vellus hair on Day 84 in target analysis area subjected to dermabrasion plus hydrogel treatment

[image]

Table 16: Nonvellus hair count and percent change from baseline by 10 micron intervals in target analysis area subjected to dermabrasion plus hydrogel treatment
[image]




KO is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
hairman2

11.06.2013, 14:54

@ KO

Dr Nigam Fgf9 thoughts

where is this coming from? I dont really understand the tables... it says 33 non-vellus and also 33 vellus hairs? conincedence? I dont get it...

are these the placebo charts? this information is kind of pointless :)




hairman2 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
KO

11.06.2013, 15:57

@ hairman2

Dr Nigam Fgf9 thoughts

Yes, these are the placebo charts, the experimental description is written above. N = no. of patients. It's not that hard to understand. You sound like jarjarbinx.




KO is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
Rob35

11.06.2013, 16:30

@ KO

Dr Nigam Fgf9 thoughts

Well I was going to say to long time ago you post a lot of pointless stuff. Why don't take some time to study the subject. By the way jarjar is a valuable contributor on this site. He's got his flaws but who hasn't. We are not here to make fun of each other but to find a solution to a problem.




Rob35 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
KO

11.06.2013, 16:35

@ Rob35

Dr Nigam Fgf9 thoughts

Originally Posted by Rob35

Well I was going to say to long time ago you post a lot of pointless stuff. Why don't take some time to study the subject. By the way jarjar is a valuable contributor on this site. He's got his flaws but who hasn't.


LOL. You're telling me to take some time to study the subject? And you? Buddy, I've read through all of these patents and all the published papers in the last 10 years on this topic, and I don't need to be lectured by a sanctimonious fool like you.

Jarjarbinx is a valuable contributor? He doesn't even know what DP cell stands for and was trying to convince Histogen to release their product to him. He has only one thing to say "hey lets inject growth factors".

You're an idiot.




KO is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
Rob35

11.06.2013, 16:42

@ KO

Dr Nigam Fgf9 thoughts

Ha ha really you are a fool. I don't have to get down to your level. Whatever you think of jarjar a bit of courtesy wouldn't go amiss. Most of your recent post have been absolute crap. It's like you are not even bothered to read them first you just post them. Now why don't you just fu3k off. I can't be bothered to argue with an idiot like you




Rob35 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
KO

11.06.2013, 16:54

@ Rob35

Dr Nigam Fgf9 thoughts

Why don't you just go away? You're objectively an idiot, you add absolutely nothing to this forum, you don't understand any of the posted material, ask dumb questions. Go hang out with jarjar.


I posted information that was relevant to this topic and clinical process. If you cannot grasp the significance, then post somewhere else.

And then this moron tells me to "study the subject". LMAO




KO is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
Rob35

11.06.2013, 17:15

@ KO

Dr Nigam Fgf9 thoughts

Whatever idiot. Keep on ranting and posting relevant materials. As they say never argue with an idiot. I am not about to start now. Discussion between you and me is closed.




Rob35 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
hairman2

11.06.2013, 17:38

@ Rob35

Dr Nigam Fgf9 thoughts

If you seriously think that jarjar is a contribution to this forum then you must be in fact an idiot.

Originally Posted by Rob35

Whatever idiot. Keep on ranting and posting relevant materials. As they say never argue with an idiot. I am not about to start now. Discussion between you and me is closed.





hairman2 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
Rob35

11.06.2013, 17:42

@ hairman2

Dr Nigam Fgf9 thoughts

As they say never argue with an idiot. I am not about to start now. Discussion between you and me is closed.
Same quote goes for you hairman. You don't have to gang up on the guy because he has an issue or two. You guys look like a bunch of bullies and I never liked a bully. So bugger off. I don't have anything to discuss with you




Rob35 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
KO

11.06.2013, 18:44

@ Rob35

Dr Nigam Fgf9 thoughts

Why do you post? You have little or nothing to contribute.

At least jarjarbinx is funny.




KO is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
jarjarbinx

11.06.2013, 20:23

@ hairman2

Dr Nigam Fgf9 thoughts

There's a lot of stuff you don't understand. In this case it's basic numbers that you don't understand. :rotfl:

Originally Posted by hairman2

where is this coming from? I dont really understand the tables... it says 33 non-vellus and also 33 vellus hairs? conincedence? I dont get it...

are these the placebo charts? this information is kind of pointless :)





jarjarbinx is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
jarjarbinx

11.06.2013, 20:24

@ KO

Dr Nigam Fgf9 thoughts

He doesn't sound like me. He sounds like RickH's autistic companion. :rotfl:


Originally Posted by KO

Yes, these are the placebo charts, the experimental description is written above. N = no. of patients. It's not that hard to understand. You sound like jarjarbinx.





jarjarbinx is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
jarjarbinx

11.06.2013, 20:55
(edited by jarjarbinx, 11.06.2013, 21:38)

@ KO

Dr Nigam Fgf9 thoughts

* Where is it written that someone has to know what DP cells are in order to add to the conversation here? Don't bother answering that question because it was a rhetorical question. The answer is nowhere. And while there are things that I don't know there are things that stump you too. Just in case you forgot here's KO dumbfounded:

http://www.hairsite.com/hair-loss/forum_entry-id-119375-page-0-category-1-order-last_answer.html


And have you noticed that people fake like their not home when you chime in with your same tired old lithium song? Nobody except Cots can get it to work (probably because there are specific details that Cots hasn't told us and he isn't going to tell us until he's good and ready) and even Cots may not have gotten it to produce the quality of hair that we want to produce. In addition,other posters at numerous hair websites have tried over and over again ad nauseum to get lithium to work and they couldn't. And this is the tired old idea you are pushing people to try and you think you're a big contributor here? Give me a break!

And as far as me pushing growth factors goes, Histogen has grown some quality hair with growth factors and it appears to be compoundable. In addition, Cots's reason for using lithium is to mimic Wnt7a which is one of the things I'm referring to under the growth factors umbrella. So you want to use at least that one growth factor that I do. The only difference is that I want to use the real growth factor, which Histogen has proved will work and you want to use a mimic which many posters have tried to make work but have been unable to do so.

Also, I'm saying that we should also use other growth factors and you say I'm wrong (even though it's a fact that you want to use lithium because it mimics one of the very growth factors I'm talking about using) But you also want to use wounding and what is the reason that wounding might regrow lost hair - because it produces growth factors. So the point is that you are also talking about growth factors you're just don't have the brainpower to figure it out.

So in a nutshell I'm saying let's inject growth factors whereas you're saying let's mimic growth factors and use wounding to produce growth factors. At least the injection way has regrown hair (Histogen) but your way has not regrown hair by many people who have tried it.




Originally Posted by Rob35

Well I was going to say to long time ago you post a lot of pointless stuff. Why don't take some time to study the subject. By the way jarjar is a valuable contributor on this site. He's got his flaws but who hasn't.

Originally Posted by KO


LOL. You're telling me to take some time to study the subject? And you? Buddy, I've read through all of these patents and all the published papers in the last 10 years on this topic, and I don't need to be lectured by a sanctimonious fool like you.

Jarjarbinx is a valuable contributor? He doesn't even know what DP cell stands for and was trying to convince Histogen to release their product to him. He has only one thing to say "hey lets inject growth factors".

You're an idiot.





jarjarbinx is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
jarjarbinx

11.06.2013, 20:58
(edited by jarjarbinx, 11.06.2013, 21:32)

@ Rob35

Dr Nigam Fgf9 thoughts

KO's on a never-ending campaign to get people to try wounding and lithium. Let me tell you Rob that many people at hair websites tried lithium and wounding ad naseam years ago and it didn't work and he knows this. But he just wants to keep pushing people to keep going back to that same empty well over and over and over again.

And Rob nobody's stopping KO from doing it but he doesn't do it. I invite him to do it. KO knows the lithium idea better than the rest of us do so why doesn't he just try lithium and talk with the rest of us about as he does his experiment the same way alecbaldone is doing?




Originally Posted by Rob35

Ha ha really you are a fool. I don't have to get down to your level. Whatever you think of jarjar a bit of courtesy wouldn't go amiss. Most of your recent post have been absolute crap. It's like you are not even bothered to read them first you just post them. Now why don't you just fu3k off. I can't be bothered to argue with an idiot like you





jarjarbinx is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
jarjarbinx

11.06.2013, 21:03
(edited by jarjarbinx, 11.06.2013, 21:27)

@ KO

Dr Nigam Fgf9 thoughts

* Hey KO why should have to go away? And who are you to say he brings nothing to this forum? All you bring to this forum is your tired old song about lithium even though many people have tried it over and over for years and it did not work.


Originally Posted by KO

Why don't you just go away? You're objectively an idiot, you add absolutely nothing to this forum, you don't understand any of the posted material, ask dumb questions. Go hang out with jarjar.


I posted information that was relevant to this topic and clinical process. If you cannot grasp the significance, then post somewhere else.

And then this moron tells me to "study the subject". LMAO





jarjarbinx is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
jarjarbinx

11.06.2013, 21:14
(edited by jarjarbinx, 11.06.2013, 21:52)

@ hairman2

Dr Nigam Fgf9 thoughts

But Hairman I have contributed to this forum. I'm the guy who explained to all of the other posters here that you're trying to trick them into paying for hair counts that you want. I've explained that you're pretending that you don't really want the hair counts even though you do. I've explained to everyone here how you used the wording that it would be a "burden" for you to have to get the hair counts and you would be "willing" to get the hair counts so that you could try to trick people into thinking that you would get the hair counts as a favor to them, that getting the hair counts is a burden on you, and you yourself have no interest in the hair count information because you're trying to make people here feel like they should have to pay for the hair counts that you want to get.

Don't you think it's helpful to the people here when someone such as myself explains to the other people here how you're trying to hustle them? Someone needed to tell everyone and if I hadn't told them would you have told them?:rotfl:



If you seriously think that jarjar is a contribution to this forum then you must be in fact an idiot.

Originally Posted by Rob35

Whatever idiot. Keep on ranting and posting relevant materials. As they say never argue with an idiot. I am not about to start now. Discussion between you and me is closed.

Originally Posted by hairman2





jarjarbinx is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
jarjarbinx

11.06.2013, 21:15
(edited by jarjarbinx, 11.06.2013, 21:44)

@ Rob35

Dr Nigam Fgf9 thoughts

Rob everything you're saying is absolutely, totally, 100% correct. You're the one who's right.


Originally Posted by Rob35

As they say never argue with an idiot. I am not about to start now. Discussion between you and me is closed.
Same quote goes for you hairman. You don't have to gang up on the guy because he has an issue or two. You guys look like a bunch of bullies and I never liked a bully. So bugger off. I don't have anything to discuss with you





jarjarbinx is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
jarjarbinx

11.06.2013, 21:21

@ KO

Dr Nigam Fgf9 thoughts

* He posts because he can KO.

*And KO It's creepy of you to blatantly try to run someone off just because he disagrees with you. Think about it KO. You've been hanging out with Hairman too long.

*Maybe it's time for you to chill.

* KO Rob isn't the one telling the rest of us to try something that has been tried over and over and over again without success. That's you KO. Your lithium song is an unsuccessful tired old song.


Originally Posted by KO

Why do you post? You have little or nothing to contribute.

At least jarjarbinx is funny.





jarjarbinx is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
Rob35

12.06.2013, 07:03
(edited by Rob35, 12.06.2013, 07:29)

@ jarjarbinx

Dr Nigam Fgf9 thoughts

"He doesn't sound like me. He sounds like RickH's autistic companion. :rotfl:"

LOL. Anyway let's get back to reason why we all are here. Certainly not for socialising.




Rob35 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
shivers20

12.06.2013, 10:29

@ KO

Dr Nigam Fgf9 thoughts

.




shivers20 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


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