paperbag
26.05.2007, 09:46 |
tamoxifen with avodart (Propecia, Avodart, Spiro, DHT & hormones ...) |
Hi, I'm taking avodart and getting early gyne symptoms. I was wondering if anyone else here takes tamoxifen concurrently with the avodart?
I ordered some generic tamoxifen off the web, it's called Genox. I have been taking it sporadically. I can never be sure with these online sites if the drug is real, but I think it might be helping. I'm also trying to decrease my avodart dosage to every third day. But I don't know if that is high enough to prevent hairloss. It's all so frustrating, a guessing game. Any advice appreciated.
paperbag is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
steve
28.05.2007, 03:48
@ paperbag
|
tamoxifen with avodart |
» I'm taking propecia and generic tamoxifen. It has stopped the painful lump under my nip from getting worse. It is still there though. I had better results with Arimadex but it made my good cholesterol disappear. The best advice on gynoand tamoxifen can be found on the steroid websites. Good luck.
steve is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
therapy
28.05.2007, 18:16
@ paperbag
|
tamoxifen with avodart |
I am pretty sure tamoxifen is an estrogen blocker, it prevents estrogen from binding to tissues, it does not reduce the amount of estrogen in your body.
therapy is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
ipod
29.05.2007, 23:15
@ therapy
|
aromatase inhibitor (sp ??) |
» I am pretty sure tamoxifen is an estrogen blocker, it prevents estrogen
» from binding to tissues, it does not reduce the amount of estrogen in your
» body.
You are right. If you want to reduce the absolute level of estrogen in your body, I think you need Arimidex. Arimidex is an aromatse (sp?) inhibitor, it can reduce the amount of estrogen produced in your body.
ipod is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO ---
NW3 -
Propecia /Saw Palmetto
Topical Spiro / Rogaine Foam (quit REMOX IV)
High does vitamin C / Lysine / Nizoral / Tea Tree Oil Shampoo |
FIT2Btied
07.06.2007, 14:45
@ paperbag
|
tamoxifen with avodart |
» Hi, I'm taking avodart and getting early gyne symptoms. I was wondering if
» anyone else here takes tamoxifen concurrently with the avodart?
» I ordered some generic tamoxifen off the web, it's called Genox. I have
» been taking it sporadically. I can never be sure with these online sites
» if the drug is real, but I think it might be helping. I'm also trying to
» decrease my avodart dosage to every third day. But I don't know if that
» is high enough to prevent hairloss. It's all so frustrating, a guessing
» game. Any advice appreciated.
I think 2 to 3 times a week is probably going to give you pretty good blood levels; it all depends on how your physiology responds to the drug and to lower DHT levels.
SERM's (selective estrogen receptor modulators) are used a lot by anabolic steroid users to avoid the side effects of high estrogen levels (eg, "gyno" .
Since DHT acts as a estrogen receptor blocker of sorts, it makes sense that a SERM would be useful for treating your gyno. However, some people are very "gyno-prone" and just a little estrogenic stimulation is enough. Good luck.
The worst case scenario is surgical intervention to remove the hypertrophied glandular tissue from the breast.
FIT2Btied is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO ---
Regards,
FIT2Btied
-----------------------------------
Ask me question: consults@forhair.com
Disclaimer:I am not a physician. My opinions are not necessarily those of Dr Cole. My advice is not a medical advice. |
gc1961
18.06.2007, 11:49
@ FIT2Btied
|
tamoxifen vs Arimidex (Anastrozole); E in general |
Here is the skinny on Estrogen.
1. Blocking DHT does increase Estrogen (and the bad Estrogens at that)
2. Blocking Testosterone production using Spiro/Flut has a similar effect on Estrogen.
3. You can tackle E via diet and vitamins (aspirin, zinc, etc)
4. Powerful natural (test tube) products often don't work in the human body due to poor bioavailability or systemic interference, e.g. chrysin
5. Anastrozole is very powerful and completely blocks the Aromatization of androgens; 1/4 tab every other day will work well.
6. Buy generic Anastrozole; it is cheaper and less likely to be counterfeit than the Astra Zeneca branded product.
7. Anastrozole is much safer (and more effective) than Tamoxifen
8. As noted Tamoxifen is an early SERM; SERMs are an area of intense research as system-wide blockade of Estrogen is likely to be VERY unhealthy over a long period of time. In the short-term Anastrozole appears far less toxic than Tamoxifen.
Now a few notes on E in general.
1. Estrogen plays a critical role in Prostate cancer and male pattern baldness
2. It is now generally accepted that it is the T/E ratio that is critical in cancer (breast & prostate) and MPB, i.e. too much E. It is also this ratio that leads to Gyno.
3. Estrogen is a complex and mis-understood subject with many recent advances, e.g. the identification of 2 Estrogen Receptors in hair; one acts like the Androgen Receptor and one acts in an opposite manner.
4. Aromatase is identified late in the Anagen phase. The most likely primary impact of E in the hair cycle is the inhibition of transition to the Anagen phase.
My experience.
I took Arimidex with Proscar in Jan 2003 and shocked some regrowth of long sleeping follicles. I stopped Arimidex after 4 months and have retained my hair regrowth to this day.
Oh, I used to post here as BingBang and many will remember me and my pictures.
gc1961 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
HairSite
All Over,
18.06.2007, 12:05
@ gc1961
|
tamoxifen vs Arimidex (Anastrozole); E in general |
gc1961,
Thanks for sharing that. What prompted you to try Arimidex in the first place? Was it because of gyno or because you felt that Arimidex together with Proscar would be more effective in regrowing hair?
HairSite is located in ALL OVER and he is available to meet: YES
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=====================================
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gc1961
18.06.2007, 13:00
@ HairSite
|
tamoxifen vs Arimidex (Anastrozole); E in general |
» gc1961,
»
» Thanks for sharing that. What prompted you to try Arimidex in the first
» place? Was it because of gyno or because you felt that Arimidex together
» with Proscar would be more effective in regrowing hair?
I read an article by a weight-trainer that claimed Tamoxifen had help him grow his hair back. Then I did a pile of research on Endocrinology and Intracrinology; If I had started sooner I would have had even better results based on my current understanding.
Tamoxifen also inhibits (IGF-1) and stimulates sulfur-transferase; this enzyme is responsible for Minoxidil conversion to Minox Sulphate - the active metabolite.
IMO IGF-1 is both bad and good; it unregulates Androgen and Estrogen Receptors (bad), but is critical for growth cycle (good).
I attach my images for reference....
![[image]](img/uploaded/image302.jpg)
gc1961 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
helpmeout
18.06.2007, 14:23
(edited by helpmeout, 18.06.2007, 14:29)
@ gc1961
|
generic Anastrozole) |
hey looking good ! Where did you get generic Anastrozole from? I looked up Arimidex and that stuff is soooooooooo expensive. 
helpmeout is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO ---
Propecia, 25mg spiro, Remox, Nizoral. |
brm
his room,
18.06.2007, 18:56
@ gc1961
|
tamoxifen vs Arimidex (Anastrozole); E in general |
gc1961,
I took arimidex myself two years ago along with proscar (1/2). My experience doesn't concur. I don't believe arimidex made me grow a single strand (dosage was 1pill1/2 over a week time for two months). Arimidex does not work wonders as well on E serum levels. I tested mine prior to taking arimidex and at the very end of the treatment as well: unchanged. Arimidex did not clear either my minor gyno case. As to your own case, I understand you're still on proscar and this is the very reason why you retained your extra hair. Arimidex has probably nothing to do with that. What's more, whether you like it or not, T prevented from conversion into E because of arimidex becomes new candidate to conversion into DHT which can only induce extra hairloss. Unless the said T remains free or gets bound by SHBG, which is a rare consequence of AI use if I remember correctly. What I am very curious about is whether you happen(ed) to change your proscar dosage and what kind of sexual sides you notice(d). Please tell us. Thank you.
brm is located in HIS ROOM and he is available to meet: YES
email hairsite@aol.com to arrange a meeting. |
gc1961
19.06.2007, 14:09
@ brm
|
tamoxifen vs Arimidex (Anastrozole); E in general |
» gc1961,
» I took arimidex myself two years ago along with proscar (1/2). My
» experience doesn't concur. I don't believe arimidex made me grow a single
» strand (dosage was 1pill1/2 over a week time for two months). Arimidex
» does not work wonders as well on E serum levels. I tested mine prior to
» taking arimidex and at the very end of the treatment as well: unchanged.
» Arimidex did not clear either my minor gyno case. As to your own case, I
» understand you're still on proscar and this is the very reason why you
» retained your extra hair. Arimidex has probably nothing to do with that.
» What's more, whether you like it or not, T prevented from conversion into
» E because of arimidex becomes new candidate to conversion into DHT which
» can only induce extra hairloss. Unless the said T remains free or gets
» bound by SHBG, which is a rare consequence of AI use if I remember
» correctly. What I am very curious about is whether you happen(ed) to
» change your proscar dosage and what kind of sexual sides you notice(d).
» Please tell us. Thank you.
Maybe you had counterfeit Arimidex; there is a ton of research on its effectiveness on inhibiting E. I doubt you could take it and not see a result unless you were taking fake meds; I work in the industry and outside the US >20% of meds are fake - especially branded, high-priced meds like Arimidex.
As for more DHT as a result of taking Arimidex, I have not seen research that suggests this. Have you? Without such research I can just as easily speculate that HPTA feedback would maintain the T level; BTW the amount of E relative to T is 1/100th, so you would only be increasing T by 1% by completely blockading E production. Further, it is very clear that a complete blockade on T-to-DHT does not prevent hairloss in the majority of people. There are many more factors to hairloss (or prostate cancer) than DHT; much of the new research points to E.
Regarding SHBG, there are many question marks around your point. Firstly >50% of T at the hair folicle is generated at the follicle; either from cholesterol or from Adrenal DHEA. This is not transported via SHBG or Albumin binding. Secondly, hormones that are bound by SHBG can and do dissociate and there are suggestions that SHBG-bound-DHT might be active in binding to the follicle (the SHBG aligns the DHT in one theory); so the classical view of bioactive T is very questionable for sites that express the 450 class enymes as hair does).
No one knows the answers.
gc1961 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
helpmeout
19.06.2007, 14:20
@ gc1961
|
generic Anastrozole |
gc1961 can you recommend a place online for generic Anastrozole?
helpmeout is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO ---
Propecia, 25mg spiro, Remox, Nizoral. |
brm
his room,
19.06.2007, 14:56
@ gc1961
|
tamoxifen vs Arimidex (Anastrozole); E in general |
» Maybe you had counterfeit Arimidex; there is a ton of research on its
» effectiveness on inhibiting E. I doubt you could take it and not see a
» result unless you were taking fake meds; I work in the industry and
» outside the US >20% of meds are fake - especially branded, high-priced
» meds like Arimidex.
»
» As for more DHT as a result of taking Arimidex, I have not seen research
» that suggests this. Have you? Without such research I can just as easily
» speculate that HPTA feedback would maintain the T level; BTW the amount of
» E relative to T is 1/100th, so you would only be increasing T by 1% by
» completely blockading E production. Further, it is very clear that a
» complete blockade on T-to-DHT does not prevent hairloss in the majority of
» people. There are many more factors to hairloss (or prostate cancer) than
» DHT; much of the new research points to E.
»
» Regarding SHBG, there are many question marks around your point. Firstly
» >50% of T at the hair folicle is generated at the follicle; either from
» cholesterol or from Adrenal DHEA. This is not transported via SHBG or
» Albumin binding. Secondly, hormones that are bound by SHBG can and do
» dissociate and there are suggestions that SHBG-bound-DHT might be active
» in binding to the follicle (the SHBG aligns the DHT in one theory); so the
» classical view of bioactive T is very questionable for sites that express
» the 450 class enymes as hair does).
»
» No one knows the answers.
I had the astra zeneca thing... Tested my E2 before taking it:17pg/ml if I remember, and two months later: 17pg/ml (same lab)...
I'm on 2.5mg finasteride daily and know that the ideal dosage would be 4mg (I tested it) to retain my hair. Problem is: libido is weak at 2.5, so what would it be at 4, long term? What's your own dosage of finasteride currently? What would you advise me? You seem to be very knowledgeable.
brm is located in HIS ROOM and he is available to meet: YES
email hairsite@aol.com to arrange a meeting. |
abcxyz
19.06.2007, 16:04
@ gc1961
|
estradiol |
gc, what about estradiol? How come some guys use topical that has estradiol in it? What is the reason for that?
abcxyz is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
gc1961
20.06.2007, 08:13
@ brm
|
tamoxifen vs Arimidex (Anastrozole); E in general |
» » Maybe you had counterfeit Arimidex; there is a ton of research on its
» » effectiveness on inhibiting E. I doubt you could take it and not see a
» » result unless you were taking fake meds; I work in the industry and
» » outside the US >20% of meds are fake - especially branded, high-priced
» » meds like Arimidex.
» »
» » As for more DHT as a result of taking Arimidex, I have not seen
» research
» » that suggests this. Have you? Without such research I can just as
» easily
» » speculate that HPTA feedback would maintain the T level; BTW the amount
» of
» » E relative to T is 1/100th, so you would only be increasing T by 1% by
» » completely blockading E production. Further, it is very clear that a
» » complete blockade on T-to-DHT does not prevent hairloss in the majority
» of
» » people. There are many more factors to hairloss (or prostate cancer)
» than
» » DHT; much of the new research points to E.
» »
» » Regarding SHBG, there are many question marks around your point.
» Firstly
» » >50% of T at the hair folicle is generated at the follicle; either from
» » cholesterol or from Adrenal DHEA. This is not transported via SHBG or
» » Albumin binding. Secondly, hormones that are bound by SHBG can and do
» » dissociate and there are suggestions that SHBG-bound-DHT might be
» active
» » in binding to the follicle (the SHBG aligns the DHT in one theory); so
» the
» » classical view of bioactive T is very questionable for sites that
» express
» » the 450 class enymes as hair does).
» »
» » No one knows the answers.
»
» I had the astra zeneca thing... Tested my E2 before taking it:17pg/ml if
» I remember, and two months later: 17pg/ml (same lab)...
» I'm on 2.5mg finasteride daily and know that the ideal dosage would be 4mg
» (I tested it) to retain my hair. Problem is: libido is weak at 2.5, so
» what would it be at 4, long term? What's your own dosage of finasteride
» currently? What would you advise me? You seem to be very knowledgeable.
Like you, I take 2.5mg; 1/4 generic proscar in the morning 1/4 in the evening. I think Bryan could and would point to research showing little serum DHT reduction from 1.25mg to 2.5mg.
I am not sure going to 4mg will make a difference.
Re the libido thing, I never had a problem with it; while I suspect this is just a difference in the hormone balance in certain individuals, I have also been continuously supplementing with NO2 (Nitric Oxide) from GNC. NO is a vasodilator and may help with the libido. I also believe that NO2 (or other Arginine supplements) is very supportive in fighting hair-loss.
gc1961 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
gc1961
20.06.2007, 08:24
@ abcxyz
|
estradiol |
» gc, what about estradiol? How come some guys use topical that has estradiol
» in it? What is the reason for that?
Like male androgens, there are many hormones classsed as Estrogens; and just like T and DHT, some Estrogens are stronger than others.
Estrogen is currently a hot topic in breast and prostate cancer; in both cases it is viewed negatively. Yet in hairloss discussion the majority of people believe that Estrogen is a benefit, and hence the supplementation.
I do not share this opinion and have read many medical papers that increasingly identify Estrogen as very negative.
A thing to remember here is that a lot of our knowledge here is <10 years old, for example the fact that there are two different Estrogen Receptors (alpha and beta) expressed in human hair. These seem to be in opposition in many of their properties, so the balance of the two may be critical.
The net of the E research I have done suggests that the primary action of E in MPB is that it inhibits new hair from entering anagen (growth) phase.
BTW there are herbal supplements that modify E metabolism significantly, e.g. Indole-3-Carbinol. These promote less active forms of Estrogen and appear as an alternative to toxic cancer drugs like Tamoxifen.
This is a big subject.
gc1961 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
therapy
25.06.2007, 11:45
@ gc1961
|
estradiol |
Estrogen is a very confusing topic. There are a lot of conflicting studies about estrogen. This one was posted by Martinb from the old forum.
Wozel, G.; Narayanan, S.; Jäckel, A.; Lutz, G. A.
Alfatradiol (0,025 %) - Eine wirksame und sichere Therapieoption zur Behandlung der androgenetischen Alopezie bei Frauen und Männern (Alfatradiol (0.025 %) - an Effective and Safe Therapy for the Treatment of Androgenetic Alopecia in Women and Men).
Akt Dermatol 2005; 31: 553-560 DOI: 10.1055/s-2005-870188
Abstract
Androgenetic alopecia (AGA), also referred to as male pattern baldness, is the most common cause of hair loss in both sexes in adulthood. An option for topical treatment that selectively targets the metabolic pathways involved in the balding process is alfatradiol, an estrasterid without hormonal activity. In a drug monitoring study, efficacy and safety of alfatradiol (0.025 %) was assessed in 233 patients with AGA (192 women, aged 14-76 years, and 41 men, aged 17-56 years). After 7.5 months of treatment, trichograms of 112 patients (92 women, 20 men) were evaluated. Under treatment with alfatradiol the proportion of frontal anagen hair increased statistically significantly, in women from 69% to 77% (means) and in men from 56% to 65%. The proportion of telogen hair decreased accordingly. In 12% of women and 21% of men a further decline in the number of anagen hair was observed. Merely three patients (1,3 %) reported mild local adverse reactions. In conclusion, Alfatradiol appears to be effective and safe in the topical treatment of AGA in both men and women.
therapy is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
ipod
26.06.2007, 11:20
@ therapy
|
estradiol |
» Under treatment with alfatradiol the proportion of frontal anagen hair
» increased statistically significantly, in women from 69% to 77% (means)
» and in men from 56% to 65%.
Well, the improvement is really not that significant. The women grew 8% more hair, and men grew 9% more, it s not that much more.
ipod is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO ---
NW3 -
Propecia /Saw Palmetto
Topical Spiro / Rogaine Foam (quit REMOX IV)
High does vitamin C / Lysine / Nizoral / Tea Tree Oil Shampoo |
HairSite Admin
27.06.2007, 20:18
@ therapy
|
estradiol study |
17-Estradiol Induces Aromatase Activity in Human Hair Follicles
Dept of Derm, Philipp University, Marburg, Germany
"...Our results suggest that under the influence of 17 a-Estradiol an increased conversion of testosterone to 17 b-estradiol and androstendione to estrone takes place. In theory this pathway may diminish the amount of intrafollicular testosterone available for conversion to DHT, ane because DHT is the major mediator of AGA, this pathway may explain the beneficial effect of 17 a-estradiol on the development and progression of AGA."
HairSite Admin is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO ---
I offer research assistance for HairSite.
email: hairsite@aol.com for free consultations
=====================================
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2. Free hair replacement system for men & women |
gc1961
30.06.2007, 15:37
@ HairSite Admin
|
estradiol study |
» 17-Estradiol Induces Aromatase Activity in Human Hair Follicles
» Dept of Derm, Philipp University, Marburg, Germany
»
» "...Our results suggest that under the influence of 17 a-Estradiol an
» increased conversion of testosterone to 17 b-estradiol and androstendione
» to estrone takes place. In theory this pathway may diminish the amount of
» intrafollicular testosterone available for conversion to DHT, ane because
» DHT is the major mediator of AGA, this pathway may explain the beneficial
» effect of 17 a-estradiol on the development and progression of AGA."
I don't really buy the last sentence. All the recent reseach shows that E is as bad for hair and prostate as DHT. I think they made too much of a jump in their conclusion. A definite case of separating the science results from a bad interpretation.
gc1961 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
trent05
15.07.2007, 09:51
@ gc1961
|
estradiol |
Estrogen is a big subject. Tamoxifen is also confusing in that it is an estrogen receptor blocker in the breast tissue, but in most other tissues of the body it acts as estrogen would (an activator). I'm not sure whether it is an agonist or antagonist on the E receptors of the scalp. I have heard people say that Tamoxifen seemed to help their hair loss, but others say it will worsen it. I'm not suggesting that anyone use Tamoxifen for hair loss.
trent05 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Bryan
30.08.2007, 17:38
@ gc1961
|
estradiol |
» I do not share this opinion and have read many medical papers that
» increasingly identify Estrogen as very negative.
References or citations, please.
» The net of the E research I have done suggests that the primary action of
» E in MPB is that it inhibits new hair from entering anagen (growth)
» phase.
Reference or citation, please.
Bryan
Bryan is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Bryan
30.08.2007, 17:46
@ gc1961
|
estradiol study |
» » 17-Estradiol Induces Aromatase Activity in Human Hair Follicles
» » Dept of Derm, Philipp University, Marburg, Germany
» »
» » "...Our results suggest that under the influence of 17 a-Estradiol an
» » increased conversion of testosterone to 17 b-estradiol and
» androstendione
» » to estrone takes place. In theory this pathway may diminish the amount
» of
» » intrafollicular testosterone available for conversion to DHT, ane
» because
» » DHT is the major mediator of AGA, this pathway may explain the
» beneficial
» » effect of 17 a-estradiol on the development and progression of AGA."
»
»
» I don't really buy the last sentence. All the recent reseach shows that E
» is as bad for hair and prostate as DHT. I think they made too much of a
» jump in their conclusion. A definite case of separating the science
» results from a bad interpretation.
There's a lot of speculation about the role of estrogen in the etiology of prostate disease (even though a study testing an aromatase inhibitor for BPH found no effect), but I'm deeply puzzled by your claim that "all the recent research" shows that E is bad for hair. I'd really appreciate it if you could cite that recent research for me! 
Bryan
Bryan is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Bryan
30.08.2007, 19:05
@ gc1961
|
tamoxifen vs Arimidex (Anastrozole); E in general |
» Here is the skinny on Estrogen.
»
» 2. Blocking Testosterone production using Spiro/Flut has a similar effect
» on Estrogen.
I'm not sure what you mean by that. Are you saying that flutamide INCREASES or DECREASES estrogen? Are you aware that flutamide increases the production of testosterone?
» 5. Anastrozole is very powerful and completely blocks the Aromatization of
» androgens; 1/4 tab every other day will work well.
Anastrozole doesn't "completely block" the aromatization of androgens. In one study with healthy young males, even 3 mg/day of Arimidex only reduced serum estrogen by about 50%.
» Now a few notes on E in general.
»
» 1. Estrogen plays a critical role in Prostate cancer and male pattern
» baldness
As I've stated many times before, estrogen appears to play a beneficial role in MPB.
» 4. Aromatase is identified late in the Anagen phase. The most likely
» primary impact of E in the hair cycle is the inhibition of transition to
» the Anagen phase.
I'd like to see a reference or citation for that claim.
Bryan
Bryan is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Bryan
30.08.2007, 19:45
@ gc1961
|
tamoxifen vs Arimidex (Anastrozole); E in general |
» As for more DHT as a result of taking Arimidex, I have not seen research
» that suggests this. Have you?
I don't know of a study using Arimidex which measured DHT, but here's one using the aromatase inhibitor atamestane: "Estrogen Reduction by Aromatase Inhibition for Benign Prostatic Hyperplasia: Results of a Double-Blind, Placebo-Controlled, Randomized Clinical Trial Using Two Doses of the Aromatase-Inhibitor Atamestane", Radlmaier et al, The Prostate 29:199-208 (1996).
The use of atamestane caused a reflexive INCREASE in serum androgens, including DHT. Here are the approximate numbers involved (I'm reading this off a graph they provide): after 48 weeks of therapy, the smaller dose of the drug raised serum DHT by about 23%, and the larger dose raised serum DHT by about 35%.
>> Without such research I can just as easily
» speculate that HPTA feedback would maintain the T level; BTW the amount of
» E relative to T is 1/100th, so you would only be increasing T by 1% by
» completely blockading E production.
HUH?? It doesn't work that way! The HPTA axis doesn't just substitute one molecule of testosterone for every molecule of estrogen!
In the study I cited above with atamestane, testosterone levels rose even more than DHT: about 24% for the smaller dose, and about 47% for the larger dose, after 48 weeks.
>> Further, it is very clear that a
» complete blockade on T-to-DHT does not prevent hairloss in the majority of
» people. There are many more factors to hairloss (or prostate cancer) than
» DHT; much of the new research points to E.
I don't believe that. Please cite some references.
Bryan
Bryan is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
ApeSmith
31.08.2007, 01:58
@ Bryan
|
tamoxifen vs Arimidex (Anastrozole); E in general |
» » Here is the skinny on Estrogen.
» »
» » 2. Blocking Testosterone production using Spiro/Flut has a similar
» effect
» » on Estrogen.
»
» I'm not sure what you mean by that. Are you saying that flutamide
» INCREASES or DECREASES estrogen? Are you aware that flutamide increases
» the production of testosterone?
»
» » 5. Anastrozole is very powerful and completely blocks the Aromatization
» of
» » androgens; 1/4 tab every other day will work well.
»
» Anastrozole doesn't "completely block" the aromatization of androgens. In
» one study with healthy young males, even 3 mg/day of Arimidex only reduced
» serum estrogen by about 50%.
»
» » Now a few notes on E in general.
» »
» » 1. Estrogen plays a critical role in Prostate cancer and male pattern
» » baldness
»
» As I've stated many times before, estrogen appears to play a beneficial
» role in MPB.
»
» » 4. Aromatase is identified late in the Anagen phase. The most likely
» » primary impact of E in the hair cycle is the inhibition of transition
» to
» » the Anagen phase.
»
» I'd like to see a reference or citation for that claim.
»
» Bryan
Theres a great side to baldness that may have escaped people, it has made some of us into brilliant endocronologists.
ApeSmith is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
gc1961
31.08.2007, 10:08
@ Bryan
|
Byan, I'll show you mine, now show me yours, !!!! |
» » Here is the skinny on Estrogen.
» »
» » 2. Blocking Testosterone production using Spiro/Flut has a similar
» effect
» » on Estrogen.
»
» I'm not sure what you mean by that. Are you saying that flutamide
» INCREASES or DECREASES estrogen? Are you aware that flutamide increases
» the production of testosterone?
»
» » 5. Anastrozole is very powerful and completely blocks the Aromatization
» of
» » androgens; 1/4 tab every other day will work well.
»
» Anastrozole doesn't "completely block" the aromatization of androgens. In
» one study with healthy young males, even 3 mg/day of Arimidex only reduced
» serum estrogen by about 50%.
»
» » Now a few notes on E in general.
» »
» » 1. Estrogen plays a critical role in Prostate cancer and male pattern
» » baldness
»
» As I've stated many times before, estrogen appears to play a beneficial
» role in MPB.
»
» » 4. Aromatase is identified late in the Anagen phase. The most likely
» » primary impact of E in the hair cycle is the inhibition of transition
» to
» » the Anagen phase.
»
» I'd like to see a reference or citation for that claim.
»
» Bryan
Bryan,
2 years later same argument about E; my hair is still growing, is yours?
Please share your references to research papers that support your claim that Estrogen appears to play a benefitial role in MPB?
I am ok for you to challenge my references, but I ask you for yours as well. Fair?
To be clear "as I stated many times before" does not equate to a compelling arguement
My Primary Ref.
The Hair Follicle as an Estrogen Target and Source
Ohnemus, Uenaian, Inunza, Gustafson, Paus
University of Hamburg & Karobio
2006
This paper is a round-up of Estrogen research and references 375 other research papers; it gives a good overview and discusses Estrogen inhibition of Androgen. It also covers the latest on ER-alpha and ER-beta receptors and their different characteristics.
There is a lot of work on Estrogen in various cancers (prostate and breast); hence the industry focus on SERMs and the current use of Tamoxifen. In the natural space there is a lot of research on I3C and DIM in the Estrogen matabolism.
OK your turn!
GC
gc1961 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
gc1961
31.08.2007, 10:13
@ Bryan
|
My research - now please share yours! |
» » » 17-Estradiol Induces Aromatase Activity in Human Hair Follicles
» » » Dept of Derm, Philipp University, Marburg, Germany
» » »
» » » "...Our results suggest that under the influence of 17 a-Estradiol an
» » » increased conversion of testosterone to 17 b-estradiol and
» » androstendione
» » » to estrone takes place. In theory this pathway may diminish the
» amount
» » of
» » » intrafollicular testosterone available for conversion to DHT, ane
» » because
» » » DHT is the major mediator of AGA, this pathway may explain the
» » beneficial
» » » effect of 17 a-estradiol on the development and progression of AGA."
» »
» »
» » I don't really buy the last sentence. All the recent reseach shows that
» E
» » is as bad for hair and prostate as DHT. I think they made too much of a
» » jump in their conclusion. A definite case of separating the science
» » results from a bad interpretation.
»
» There's a lot of speculation about the role of estrogen in the etiology of
» prostate disease (even though a study testing an aromatase inhibitor for
» BPH found no effect), but I'm deeply puzzled by your claim that "all the
» recent research" shows that E is bad for hair. I'd really appreciate it
» if you could cite that recent research for me!
»
» Bryan
\
My Primary Ref.
The Hair Follicle as an Estrogen Target and Source
Ohnemus, Uenaian, Inunza, Gustafson, Paus
University of Hamburg & Karobio
2006
This paper is a round-up of Estrogen research and references 375 other research papers; it gives a good overview and discusses Estrogen inhibition of Androgen. It also covers the latest on ER-alpha and ER-beta receptors and their different characteristics.
There is a lot of work on Estrogen in various cancers (prostate and breast); hence the industry focus on SERMs and the current use of Tamoxifen. In the natural space there is a lot of research on I3C and DIM in the Estrogen matabolism.
gc1961 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
gc1961
31.08.2007, 10:14
@ Bryan
|
Reference - please share yours that promotes E as positive? |
» » I do not share this opinion and have read many medical papers that
» » increasingly identify Estrogen as very negative.
»
» References or citations, please.
»
» » The net of the E research I have done suggests that the primary action
» of
» » E in MPB is that it inhibits new hair from entering anagen (growth)
» » phase.
»
» Reference or citation, please.
»
» Bryan
My Primary Ref.
The Hair Follicle as an Estrogen Target and Source
Ohnemus, Uenaian, Inunza, Gustafson, Paus
University of Hamburg & Karobio
2006
This paper is a round-up of Estrogen research and references 375 other research papers; it gives a good overview and discusses Estrogen inhibition of Androgen. It also covers the latest on ER-alpha and ER-beta receptors and their different characteristics.
There is a lot of work on Estrogen in various cancers (prostate and breast); hence the industry focus on SERMs and the current use of Tamoxifen. In the natural space there is a lot of research on I3C and DIM in the Estrogen matabolism.
gc1961 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
gc1961
31.08.2007, 10:19
@ Bryan
|
Here is mine, where is your research Byan? |
» » Here is the skinny on Estrogen.
» »
» » 2. Blocking Testosterone production using Spiro/Flut has a similar
» effect
» » on Estrogen.
»
» I'm not sure what you mean by that. Are you saying that flutamide
» INCREASES or DECREASES estrogen? Are you aware that flutamide increases
» the production of testosterone?
»
I haven't done enough research on Flutamide.
» » 5. Anastrozole is very powerful and completely blocks the Aromatization
» of
» » androgens; 1/4 tab every other day will work well.
»
» Anastrozole doesn't "completely block" the aromatization of androgens. In
» one study with healthy young males, even 3 mg/day of Arimidex only reduced
» serum estrogen by about 50%.
»
Can you provide a reference?
» » Now a few notes on E in general.
» »
» » 1. Estrogen plays a critical role in Prostate cancer and male pattern
» » baldness
»
» As I've stated many times before, estrogen appears to play a beneficial
» role in MPB.
I cited my reference; please provide the research that supports your claim that E is benefitial?
Just because you have "said it many times" does not make it scientifically valid Or do you play by different rules?
»
» » 4. Aromatase is identified late in the Anagen phase. The most likely
» » primary impact of E in the hair cycle is the inhibition of transition
» to
» » the Anagen phase.
»
» I'd like to see a reference or citation for that claim.
»
My Primary Ref.
The Hair Follicle as an Estrogen Target and Source
Ohnemus, Uenaian, Inunza, Gustafson, Paus
University of Hamburg & Karobio
2006
This paper is a round-up of Estrogen research and references 375 other research papers; it gives a good overview and discusses Estrogen inhibition of Androgen. It also covers the latest on ER-alpha and ER-beta receptors and their different characteristics.
There is a lot of work on Estrogen in various cancers (prostate and breast); hence the industry focus on SERMs and the current use of Tamoxifen. In the natural space there is a lot of research on I3C and DIM in the Estrogen matabolism.
» Bryan
gc1961 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Bryan
31.08.2007, 19:28
@ gc1961
|
My research - now please share yours! |
» My Primary Ref.
»
» The Hair Follicle as an Estrogen Target and Source
» Ohnemus, Uenaian, Inunza, Gustafson, Paus
» University of Hamburg & Karobio
» 2006
Thanks for the reference. I see that they don't say anything specific in the abstract, but I'll pick up the full paper the next time I'm at the medical library.
» This paper is a round-up of Estrogen research and references 375 other
» research papers; it gives a good overview and discusses Estrogen
» inhibition of Androgen. It also covers the latest on ER-alpha and ER-beta
» receptors and their different characteristics.
Hmmm...."estrogen inhibition of androgen". Sounds good! That right there should tell you something!
» There is a lot of work on Estrogen in various cancers (prostate and
» breast); hence the industry focus on SERMs and the current use of
» Tamoxifen.
Not really of any relevance here, since we're talking about MPB.
Bryan
Bryan is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Bryan
31.08.2007, 20:08
(edited by Bryan, 31.08.2007, 20:27)
@ gc1961
|
Here is mine, where is your research Byan? |
» » I'm not sure what you mean by that. Are you saying that flutamide
» » INCREASES or DECREASES estrogen? Are you aware that flutamide
» increases
» » the production of testosterone?
» »
» I haven't done enough research on Flutamide.
It's true! In general, antiandrogens tend to raise the production of testosterone by interfering with the HPTA feedback loop for testosterone synthesis.
I suspect that taking flutamide might also increase estrogen levels, although I haven't specifically read anything about that in any studies. But if the supply of testosterone increases as a result of taking flutamide, it seems like there would obviously be a greater substrate available for aromatase to go to work on and make more estrogen. Seems reasonable to me.
» » » 5. Anastrozole is very powerful and completely blocks the
» Aromatization of
» » » androgens; 1/4 tab every other day will work well.
» »
» » Anastrozole doesn't "completely block" the aromatization of androgens.
» In one study with healthy young males, even 3 mg/day of Arimidex only
» reduced serum estrogen by about 50%.
» »
» Can you provide a reference?
"Estrogen Suppression in Males: Metabolic Effects", Mauras et al, J Clin Endocrinol Metab 85: 2370-2377, 2000.
» » » Now a few notes on E in general.
» » »
» » » 1. Estrogen plays a critical role in Prostate cancer and male pattern
» » » baldness
» »
» » As I've stated many times before, estrogen appears to play a beneficial
» » role in MPB.
»
» I cited my reference; please provide the research that supports your claim
» that E is benefitial?
First of all, there's that relatively recent study with a title something like "Estrogen in human scalp -- still more questions than answers". I assume you've seen that? It's been widely discussed in several of the hairloss forums. It was an in vitro experiment in which the docs took biopsies from the frontal balding areas of male patients, and gave them estrogen. The cultured hairs grew longer and thicker in response to the estrogen.
Then there are the two Kiesewetter et al studies which were also in vitro experiments. You've seen those, too, haven't you? The application of estrogen (17-b-estradiol) to cultured human scalp hair follicles "increased the growth velocity of all cell types, especially dermal papilla cells" (I believe those are the exact words they used in the studies).
And haven't you seen that LONG post I did on HLH a while back about the widespread use of topical estrogen for MPB in Europe?? I cited a good many studies about its successful use, and they included both 17-a-estradiol and 17-b-estradiol. If you haven't seen that post with all the references, I could probably find it again and post it here.
There is also a fairly recent and fascinating study by Happle and Hoffmann ("Influence of Estrogens on the Androgen Metabolism in Different Subunits of Human Hair Follicles", Eur J Dermatol 2001; 11:195-8) which found that estrogen appears to be a fairly decent 5a-reductase inhibitor; the authors speculate that that may be one of the reasons why topical estrogen is useful in the fight against MPB.
So like I said, just about all the available evidence (both in vivo and in vitro) seems to clearly indicate that estrogen is GOOD for scalp hair.
» Just because you have "said it many times" does not make it scientifically
» valid Or do you play by different rules?
I only said that as sort of an apology to YOU for making several posts the last day or two requesting references and citations from you. It had nothing whatsoever to do with my thinking that I play by different rules. I was just acknowledging that I've been a little repetitious lately!
Bryan
Bryan is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Bryan
31.08.2007, 20:12
@ gc1961
|
Byan, I'll show you mine, now show me yours, !!!! |
» OK your turn!
»
» GC
See my post just below.
Bryan
Bryan is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
gc1961
31.08.2007, 22:38
@ Bryan
|
My research - now please share yours! |
» » My Primary Ref.
» »
» » The Hair Follicle as an Estrogen Target and Source
» » Ohnemus, Uenaian, Inunza, Gustafson, Paus
» » University of Hamburg & Karobio
» » 2006
»
» Thanks for the reference. I see that they don't say anything specific in
» the abstract, but I'll pick up the full paper the next time I'm at the
» medical library.
»
» » This paper is a round-up of Estrogen research and references 375 other
» » research papers; it gives a good overview and discusses Estrogen
» » inhibition of Androgen. It also covers the latest on ER-alpha and
» ER-beta
» » receptors and their different characteristics.
»
» Hmmm...."estrogen inhibition of androgen". Sounds good! That right there
» should tell you something!
typo. I meant to type anagen.
»
» » There is a lot of work on Estrogen in various cancers (prostate and
» » breast); hence the industry focus on SERMs and the current use of
» » Tamoxifen.
»
» Not really of any relevance here, since we're talking about MPB.
»
I am not sure I agree. I think there is a link. It relates to cell receptors and signalling cascades.
» Bryan
gc1961 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
gc1961
31.08.2007, 22:44
@ Bryan
|
Here is mine, where is your research Byan? |
» » » I'm not sure what you mean by that. Are you saying that flutamide
» » » INCREASES or DECREASES estrogen? Are you aware that flutamide
» » increases
» » » the production of testosterone?
» » »
» » I haven't done enough research on Flutamide.
»
» It's true! In general, antiandrogens tend to raise the production of
» testosterone by interfering with the HPTA feedback loop for testosterone
» synthesis.
»
» I suspect that taking flutamide might also increase estrogen
» levels, although I haven't specifically read anything about that in any
» studies. But if the supply of testosterone increases as a result of
» taking flutamide, it seems like there would obviously be a greater
» substrate available for aromatase to go to work on and make more estrogen.
» Seems reasonable to me.
»
» » » » 5. Anastrozole is very powerful and completely blocks the
» » Aromatization of
» » » » androgens; 1/4 tab every other day will work well.
» » »
» » » Anastrozole doesn't "completely block" the aromatization of androgens.
»
» » In one study with healthy young males, even 3 mg/day of Arimidex only
» » reduced serum estrogen by about 50%.
» » »
» » Can you provide a reference?
»
» "Estrogen Suppression in Males: Metabolic Effects", Mauras et al,
» J Clin Endocrinol Metab 85: 2370-2377, 2000.
»
» » » » Now a few notes on E in general.
» » » »
» » » » 1. Estrogen plays a critical role in Prostate cancer and male
» pattern
» » » » baldness
» » »
» » » As I've stated many times before, estrogen appears to play a
» beneficial
» » » role in MPB.
» »
» » I cited my reference; please provide the research that supports your
» claim
» » that E is benefitial?
»
» First of all, there's that relatively recent study with a title something
» like "Estrogen in human scalp -- still more questions than answers". I
» assume you've seen that? It's been widely discussed in several of the
» hairloss forums. It was an in vitro experiment in which the docs
» took biopsies from the frontal balding areas of male patients, and gave
» them estrogen. The cultured hairs grew longer and thicker in response to
» the estrogen.
»
» Then there are the two Kiesewetter et al studies which were also
» in vitro experiments. You've seen those, too, haven't you? The
» application of estrogen (17-b-estradiol) to cultured human scalp hair
» follicles "increased the growth velocity of all cell types, especially
» dermal papilla cells" (I believe those are the exact words they used in
» the studies).
»
» And haven't you seen that LONG post I did on HLH a while back about the
» widespread use of topical estrogen for MPB in Europe?? I cited a good
» many studies about its successful use, and they included both
» 17-a-estradiol and 17-b-estradiol. If you haven't seen that post with all
» the references, I could probably find it again and post it here.
»
» There is also a fairly recent and fascinating study by Happle and Hoffmann
» ("Influence of Estrogens on the Androgen Metabolism in Different Subunits
» of Human Hair Follicles", Eur J Dermatol 2001; 11:195-8) which found that
» estrogen appears to be a fairly decent 5a-reductase inhibitor; the authors
» speculate that that may be one of the reasons why topical estrogen is
» useful in the fight against MPB.
»
» So like I said, just about all the available evidence (both in vivo
» and in vitro) seems to clearly indicate that estrogen is GOOD for
» scalp hair.
»
» » Just because you have "said it many times" does not make it
» scientifically
» » valid Or do you play by different rules?
»
» I only said that as sort of an apology to YOU for making several posts the
» last day or two requesting references and citations from you. It had
» nothing whatsoever to do with my thinking that I play by different rules.
» I was just acknowledging that I've been a little repetitious lately!
»
» Bryan
I will read them all with an open mind. I suspect we will both end seeing conflicting research; it just seems to be the way with a lot of things to do with MPB.
The research on IGF-1 is somewhat similar; I think it is net good but don't think that this view is widely held.
I also believe that SHBG is misunderstood.
gc.
gc1961 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
brm
his room,
02.09.2007, 16:44
@ gc1961
|
Here is mine, where is your research Byan? |
Gc 1961,
How do you mean exactly by "tamoxifen is a toxic drug"? Is it only a matter of hormonal unbalance this drug may create (though as a SERM, it should not that much) or is there anything more to it? I've always considered trying a little tamox to try to get rid of my gyno (puffy nipples) but fear the hairloss risks and just wonder if it is worth. If so, what dosage would you recommend and for how long, for a possible successful result on the gyno without hairloss sides?
As I said before, my estradiol remained mainly untouched by the intake of Zeneca arimidex. What I didn't say is that another blood parameter that had gone thru the roof remained untouched as well: prolactin. Since my prolactin levels were over the normal range and estradiol levels within the normal range, it has been assumed that my gyno was a prolactin induced one.Do you have any insight as to how overcome a seemingly prolactin induced gyno? This gyno had turned up from the combined use of 1mg finasteride daily + 1 avodart every third day. (The prolactin levels returned to normal in the months following cessation of avodart and (useless) arimidex.)
Thank you.
brm is located in HIS ROOM and he is available to meet: YES
email hairsite@aol.com to arrange a meeting. |
Bryan
03.09.2007, 08:18
(edited by Bryan, 03.09.2007, 08:43)
@ gc1961
|
My research - now please share yours! |
» My Primary Ref.
»
» The Hair Follicle as an Estrogen Target and Source
» Ohnemus, Uenaian, Inunza, Gustafson, Paus
» University of Hamburg & Karobio
» 2006
»
» This paper is a round-up of Estrogen research and references 375 other
» research papers; it gives a good overview and discusses Estrogen
» inhibition of Androgen. It also covers the latest on ER-alpha and ER-beta
» receptors and their different characteristics.
Ok, I just got that paper from the med library last night, and I've now finished reading it!
There's nothing in the paper which conflicts with what I said before, or with the pro-estrogen evidence I previously cited. In fact, I didn't realize that these authors are the very same ones who did the same study I mentioned before ("Estrogens and human scalp hair growth -- still more questions than answers" )!
By a strange coincidence, while I was at the library last night, I also picked up yet another of their studies, which I didn't even know they were going to be talking about and referencing in this one. This would be: "Substantial sex-dependent differences in the response of human scalp hair follicles to estrogen stimulation in vitro advocates gender-tailored management of female versus male pattern balding", J Invest Dermatol Symp Proc 10:243-246. In that one, they found that giving estrogen to hair follicles from frontal male scalp skin showed a dose-dependent DOWNREGULATION of the very harmful TGFb-2, which is known to be a main hair growth suppressor in MPB. That study can be considered to be yet another one in support of estrogen, in addition to the other ones that I mentioned previously.
So my question to you now is this: why did you assume that this paper (the long one you cited above) is so anti-estrogen, when clearly it is not? They mention the same studies I did, with the exception of the ones by Kiesewetter, and talk about the wide use of topical estrogen in Europe for MPB, citing the very same study that _I_ used when I made my big post on that subject over on HLH. They also reference the same Happle & Hoffmann study that I did, showing that estrogen is a fairly decent 5a-reductase inhibitor.
So what made you think that they were necessarily INCRIMINATING estrogen? Was it because of all that material they had about how estrogen arrests the anagen cycle of hair follicles in animals, and sends them into telogen? That was in ANIMALS! As they themselves pointed out near the end, you can't just assume that the same thing happens in humans, and indeed they cited the same evidence that I did showing that estrogen actually slightly LENGTHENS anagen in human scalp hair follicles, and stimulates their growth. And I continue to be amazed that after all these years, that old Robert Smart study (another one they cited) is still causing confusion in a lot of people by making them think that the same results he got with anti-estrogens in MICE is going to have the same effect in humans. It ain't necessarily so, and the evidence we've cited demonstrates it.
So all in all, I'm pretty much in agreement with what they said. I think the preponderance of the evidence shows that estrogen is GOOD for h |
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