benji
23.03.2008, 01:09 |
Vellus hairs and Donora area hairs equal when transplanted to mice (Hair Loss Research & Clinical Trials) |
Note: Performing your original search, vellus hairs mice alopecia, in PubMed will retrieve 6 citations.
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1: J Am Acad Dermatol. 2003 May;48(5):752-9. Links
Transplants from balding and hairy androgenetic alopecia scalp regrow hair comparably well on immunodeficient mice.Krajcik RA, Vogelman JH, Malloy VL, Orentreich N.
Orentreich Foundation for the Advancement of Science Inc, Cold Spring-on-Hudson, New York 10516, USA. ofas1@juno.com
Human hair follicles were grafted onto 2 strains of immunodeficient mice to compare the regeneration potential of vellus (miniaturized, balding) and terminal (hairy, nonbalding) follicles from males and a female exhibiting pattern baldness. Each mouse had transplants of both types of follicles from a single donor for direct comparison. Grafted follicles from 2 male donors resulted in nonsignificant differences in mean length (52 mm vs 54 mm) and mean diameter (99 microm vs 93 microm) at 22 weeks for hairs originating from balding and hairy scalp, respectively, corresponding to 400% versus 62% of the mean pretransplantation diameters. Follicles from the female donor transplanted to several mice also resulted in nonsignificant differences in length (43 mm vs 37 mm) for hairs from balding and hairy scalp, respectively, during a period of 22 weeks. The mean diameter of the originally vellus hairs increased 3-fold, whereas the terminal hairs plateaued at approximately 50% of pretransplantation diameter, resulting in a final balding hair volume double that of the nonbalding hairs. This report shows that miniaturized hair follicles of pattern alopecia can quickly regenerate once removed from the human scalp and can grow as well as or better than terminal follicles from the same individual.
PMID: 12734505 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
That is <> humiliating. We move our vellus hairs to mice, and they can regrow.......................dammit. Dutasteride wont get them back though.
benji is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
benji
23.03.2008, 01:15
@ benji
|
Vellus hairs and Donora area hairs equal when transplanted to mice |
When one really considers the fact that vellus hairs from male pattern bald me can grow as well or even better than donor area hair when moved to an immuno deficient mouse's back.................it makes me want to chuck all studies in mice.
Lets see................castrates dont lose anymore hair, so we know that male hormone is causing the hair loss.
But castrates only grow back a little of what was recently lost----about like guys on dutasteride or finasteride.
So what then is keeping our miniaturized hairs small on our own heads. Why wont they grow back if you are on finasteride and shampoo with nizoral? Does the immune system keep attacking them when they are small..........there has got to be a reason for them not- re-enlarging like they do on these mice.
Anybody got any ideas?
benji is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
HanginInThere
Hair loss University,
23.03.2008, 02:10
@ benji
|
Vellus hairs and Donora area hairs equal when transplanted to mice |
» When one really considers the fact that vellus hairs from male pattern bald
» me can grow as well or even better than donor area hair when moved to an
» immuno deficient mouse's back.................it makes me want to chuck
» all studies in mice.
»
»
» Lets see................castrates dont lose anymore hair, so we know that
» male hormone is causing the hair loss.
»
» But castrates only grow back a little of what was recently lost----about
» like guys on dutasteride or finasteride.
»
»
» So what then is keeping our miniaturized hairs small on our own heads. Why
» wont they grow back if you are on finasteride and shampoo with nizoral?
» Does the immune system keep attacking them when they are
» small..........there has got to be a reason for them not- re-enlarging
» like they do on these mice.
»
»
» Anybody got any ideas?
for one thing i do not recommend niz shampoo, it has hydrochloric acid in it, as well as the chemical for embalming fluid, neither of which are in the nizoral cream. the shampoo is way too harsh, and only stays on your head for about a minute,
I had way more success with the cream
if you can find a dht 5 ar inhibitor that works on you, such as fin, it helps a lot but for some reason it stops working after a few years, perhaps the body develops an immunity to it
I also think that it depends on if you are thinning or bald in that area, also for how long you have been thinning, Thinnng hair has , in my opinion about 1000 times more chance of coming back to life than bald areas. I think that hair in slick bald areas is next to impossible to revive
I liken it, to leaving for vacation you come back your yard is brown from lack of water, you can water the grass and it comes back to life........thats thinning hair
If you leave for 2 yrs you come back there is dirt there instead of grass, good luck watering it and having it come back to life. the grass is dead. To me this is the same with slick bald scalp
nothing i have ever tried has gotten my slick bald spot in the crown back, whereas my DHT blockers have totally reversed my thinning hair to where it is semi normal no longer see through, and about 4 times as thick as it was before i started all my dht blockers
if you are not on a super hair vitamin you should try it, makes a huge difference
HanginInThere is located in HAIR LOSS UNIVERSITY and he is available to meet: NO ---
Hangin..(ideal regimen) ........current regimen is just Saw Palmetto and Beta Sis
Maxi Hair by Country Life 2/day
Kal Amino Max ..Chelated Multi Mineral..2/day
DHT blockers (daily intake)
Saw Palmetto, 320mg Standardized
Pygeum 500mg
Nettles 500mg
Beta Sitosterol 125mg |
benji
23.03.2008, 02:47
@ HanginInThere
|
Vellus hairs and Donora area hairs equal when transplanted to mice |
»
» for one thing i do not recommend niz shampoo, it has hydrochloric acid in
» it, as well as the chemical for embalming fluid, neither of which are in
» the nizoral cream. the shampoo is way too harsh, and only stays on your
» head for about a minute,
» I had way more success with the cream
THERE ARE THREE INDEPENDENT STUDIES SHOWING NIZORAL SHAMPOO INCREASES HAIR COUNT, HAIR SIZE IN CIRCUMFERENCE, AND HAIR WEIGHT WHILE REDUCING SEBUM SECRETIONS, AND EVEN SEBACEOUS GLAND SIZE (19.4%) AT SIX MONTHS--DESPITE ANYTHING ELSE THAT MIGHT BE IN THE SHAMPOO»
» if you can find a dht 5 ar inhibitor that works on you, such as fin, it
» helps a lot but for some reason it stops working after a few years,
» perhaps the body develops an immunity to it
FINASTERIDE NEVER "STOPS WORKING", IT CHEMICALLY BINDS WITH THE FIVE ALPHA REDUCTASE TYPE TWO ENZYMES IN THE VARIOUS LOCATIONS IN THE BODY THAT IT CAN BE FOUND---BUT SINCE DHT IS 'BOUND' BY GLOBULIN IN THE BLOOD STREAM ABOUT 98% OF THE TIME, THE ALPHA FIVE IN QUESTION IS THE TYPE 2 ENZYME THAT IS LOCATED IN THE INNERMOST PORTION OF THE HAIR FOLLICLE'S OUTER ROOT SHEATH THAT ALMOST ASSUREDLY DOES MOST OF THE DAMAGE IN ANDROGENIC ALOPECIA. FINASTERIDE INHIBITS ROUGHLY 85% OF TYPE TWO ALPHA FIVE REDUCTASE ACTIVITY, AND THEREFORE DOESN'T INHIBIT ALL DHT FROM BEING MADE.......ONE STILL HAS ABOUT 15% OF IT. DR. MARTY SAWAYA NOTED AN ANDROGEN RECEPTOR UPREGULATION IN USERS OF FINASTERDIE, BUT ANY KIND OF ANTI-ANDROGEN MIGHT PRODUCE THIS EFFECT. HER RESULTS HAVE, HOWEVER, NEVER BEEN DUPLICATED
»
» I also think that it depends on if you are thinning or bald in that area,
» also for how long you have been thinning, Thinnng hair has , in my opinion
» about 1000 times more chance of coming back to life than bald areas. I
» think that hair in slick bald areas is next to impossible to revive
»
» I liken it, to leaving for vacation you come back your yard is brown from
» lack of water, you can water the grass and it comes back to
» life........thats thinning hair
»
» If you leave for 2 yrs you come back there is dirt there instead of grass,
» good luck watering it and having it come back to life. the grass is dead.
» To me this is the same with slick bald scalp
»
» nothing i have ever tried has gotten my slick bald spot in the crown back,
» whereas my DHT blockers have totally reversed my thinning hair to where it
» is semi normal no longer see through, and about 4 times as thick as it was
» before i started all my dht blockers
IF YOU LOOK CLOSE AT YOUR 'SLICK' BALD AREA, VERY VERY CLOSE, YOU WILL NOTE THAT IT WILL BE COVERED IN VELLUS HAIRS. GUESS WHAT???? THESE USED TO BE YOUR FULL-SIZED FOLLICES YEARS AGO. THEY DONT DIE. THEY CAN BE 'SCARRED UP' AND SURROUNDED IN COLLAGEN---BUT THIS STUDY SHOWS THAT IF THEY ARE TRANSPLANTED TO IMMUNODEFICIENT MICE THAT THEY CAN RE-ENLARGE JUST LIKE OTHER HAIRS TRANSPLANTED FROM THE DONOR AREA.
Its been pointed out in research that balding hairs lose a molecule........CD200 that tells the immune system not to attack a particular organ. This might be what causes the immune system to never stop suppressing balding hairs, for once this molecule is lost.............it keeps inflaming the follicle at the uppper portion near the infidulum, and possibly keeping the arrector pilli muscle from being able to supply the necessary stem cells to the papilla to initiate a new anagen phase--------keeping it small forever.
The question is what prostaglandin, peptide, cytokine, whatever keeps telling the body not to put CD200 back at the follicle site. Why doesnt the follicle become immuno-priveleged again after one gets on dutasteride (stops 98% of type two alpha five and 52% of type one). There has got to be some other substance stopping the hairs from re-enlarging----or castrates would grow back ALL their hair. Anybody have any EDUCATED guesses or ideas
»
» if you are not on a super hair vitamin you should try it, makes a huge
» difference---- its probably pretty good. It has lysine, arginine, the same amino acids that are in the triamino polypeptide formula of tricomin and a few other hair-healthy nutrients like biotin, msm, silica, manganese...........but I take a very good multivatimin packet that has alot of this stuff in it plus fish oil and saw palmetto are also in my vitamin. I figure its pretty "decent" in the healthy hair department. Ive been stuck at the same place for about five years...........no more hair or less.
benji is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
HanginInThere
Hair loss University,
23.03.2008, 03:15
@ benji
|
Vellus hairs and Donora area hairs equal when transplanted to mice |
i dont care what the studies say, i go by personal results, you do not need TO TYPE IN CAPS, that is considered RUDE
if you dont believe me, fine use the niz shampoo 10 times a day, Im saying it is too harsh
plenty of guys say it is too harsh, and the cream stays on your head for hours, as opposed to about a minute with the shampoo..................u think putting hydrochloric acid is ok for your hair, then go for it
HanginInThere is located in HAIR LOSS UNIVERSITY and he is available to meet: NO ---
Hangin..(ideal regimen) ........current regimen is just Saw Palmetto and Beta Sis
Maxi Hair by Country Life 2/day
Kal Amino Max ..Chelated Multi Mineral..2/day
DHT blockers (daily intake)
Saw Palmetto, 320mg Standardized
Pygeum 500mg
Nettles 500mg
Beta Sitosterol 125mg |
debris
23.03.2008, 05:09
@ benji
|
And this is where follica is most probably going to fail |
So because vellus hair grows into mature thick hair in these creatures on it's own and because follica treatment has been studied on the same creatures and no humans so far, it is very possible that in humans the treatment will grow only vellus hair which will never grow into mature hair because we are humans and not immunosuppressed mice which can do that.
Depressing isn't it?
debris has 1 Personal Journal(s). Click here to view
debris is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
MPB
23.03.2008, 07:40
@ benji
|
Vellus hairs and Donora area hairs equal when transplanted to mice |
» Note: Performing your original search, vellus hairs mice alopecia, in
» PubMed will retrieve 6 citations.
»
»
»
»
» Display SummaryBriefAbstractAbstractPlusCitationMEDLINEXMLUI
» ListLinkOutASN.1Related ArticlesCited in BooksCancerChrom LinksDomain
» Links3D Domain LinksGEO DataSet LinksGene LinksGene (OMIM) LinksGene
» (GeneRIF) LinksGenome LinksProject LinksGENSAT LinksGEO Profile
» LinksHomoloGene LinksCoreNucleotide LinksCoreNucleotide (RefSeq) LinksEST
» LinksEST (RefSeq) LinksGSS LinksGSS (RefSeq) LinksNucleotide
» LinksNucleotide (RefSeq) LinksOMIA LinksOMIM (calculated) LinksOMIM
» (cited) LinksBioAssay LinksCompound LinksCompound (MeSH Keyword)Compound
» (Publisher) LinksSubstance LinksSubstance (MeSH Keyword)Substance
» (Publisher) LinksPMC LinksCited in PMCPopSet LinksProbe LinksProtein
» LinksProtein (RefSeq) LinksProtein (Weighted) LinksProtein Cluster
» LinksCited ArticlesSNP LinksStructure LinksTaxonomy via GenBankUniGene
» LinksUniSTS Links Show 5102050100200500Sort ByPub DateFirst AuthorLast
» AuthorJournalSend toTextFilePrinterClipboardE-mailOrderAll: 1 Review: 0
» Click to change filter selection through MyNCBI.
»
»
» 1: J Am Acad Dermatol. 2003 May;48(5):752-9. Links
» Transplants from balding and hairy androgenetic alopecia scalp regrow hair
» comparably well on immunodeficient mice.Krajcik RA, Vogelman JH, Malloy VL,
» Orentreich N.
» Orentreich Foundation for the Advancement of Science Inc, Cold
» Spring-on-Hudson, New York 10516, USA. ofas1@juno.com
»
» Human hair follicles were grafted onto 2 strains of immunodeficient mice
» to compare the regeneration potential of vellus (miniaturized, balding)
» and terminal (hairy, nonbalding) follicles from males and a female
» exhibiting pattern baldness. Each mouse had transplants of both types of
» follicles from a single donor for direct comparison. Grafted follicles
» from 2 male donors resulted in nonsignificant differences in mean length
» (52 mm vs 54 mm) and mean diameter (99 microm vs 93 microm) at 22 weeks
» for hairs originating from balding and hairy scalp, respectively,
» corresponding to 400% versus 62% of the mean pretransplantation diameters.
» Follicles from the female donor transplanted to several mice also resulted
» in nonsignificant differences in length (43 mm vs 37 mm) for hairs from
» balding and hairy scalp, respectively, during a period of 22 weeks. The
» mean diameter of the originally vellus hairs increased 3-fold, whereas the
» terminal hairs plateaued at approximately 50% of pretransplantation
» diameter, resulting in a final balding hair volume double that of the
» nonbalding hairs. This report shows that miniaturized hair follicles of
» pattern alopecia can quickly regenerate once removed from the human scalp
» and can grow as well as or better than terminal follicles from the same
» individual.
»
» PMID: 12734505 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
»
»
»
»
» That is <> humiliating. We move our vellus hairs to
» mice, and they can regrow.......................dammit. Dutasteride wont
» get them back though.
Maybe we are approaching this thing all wrong. All we have to do is get injections of rat DNA and we can grow virtually anything on our mellons.
MPB has 1 Personal Journal(s). Click here to view
MPB is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
MPB
23.03.2008, 07:48
@ debris
|
And this is where folica is most probably going to fail |
» So because vellus hair grows into mature thick hair in these creatures on
» it's own and because folica treatment has been studied on the same
» creatures and no humans so far, it is very possible that in humans the
» treatment will grow only vellus hair which will never grow into mature
» hair because we are humans and not immunosuppressed mice which can do
» that.
»
» Depressing isn't it?
I really think, however, Folica is on to something in this case. There has already been documented cases of people getting severe wounds and growing hair in the wounded area. Somehow it inhibits stem cells to migrate in that area. I'm seriously considering being a guinea pig and let Cotsarelis dermabrade the back of my head. WTF
MPB has 1 Personal Journal(s). Click here to view
MPB is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
benji
23.03.2008, 10:28
@ MPB
|
One nizoral study |
Authors: Pierard-Franchimont C. De Doncker P. Cauwenbergh G. Pierard GE.
Institution: Department of Dermatopathology, University of Liege, Belgium.
Title: Ketoconazole shampoo: effect of long-term use in androgenic alopecia.
Source: Dermatology. 196(4):474-7, 1998.
Abstract
BACKGROUND: The pathogenesis of androgenic alopecia is not fully understood. A microbial-driven inflammatory reaction abutting on the hair follicles might participate in the hair status anomaly.
OBJECTIVE: The aim of our study was to determine if ketoconazole (KCZ) which is active against the scalp microflora and shows some intrinsic anti-inflammatory activity might improve alopecia.
METHOD: The effect of 2% KCZ shampoo was compared to that of an unmedicated shampoo used in combination with or without 2% minoxidil therapy.
RESULTS: Hair density and size and proportion of anagen follicles were improved almost similarly by both KCZ and minoxidil regimens. The sebum casual level appeared to be decreased by KCZ.
CONCLUSION: Comparative data suggest that there may be a significant action of KCZ upon the course of androgenic alopecia and that Malassezia spp. may play a role in the inflammatory reaction. The clinical significance of the results awaits further controlled study in a larger group of subjects.
Via Wikipedia:
[edit] Hair loss benefits
Nizoral shampoo has shown to be beneficial in men suffering from androgenic alopecia. One 1998 study showed that Nizoral 2% worked just as well as minoxidil 2% (brand name Rogaine) in men with androgenic alopecia. Both medicines increased hair thickness and increased the number of anagen-phase hair follicles on the scalp. Researchers were guarded about the meaning of these results, saying that more rigorous studies on larger groups of men should be done to confirm the findings, both to evaluate the ideal dosage and formulation, and to assess the desirability of routine treatment in this condition.[12]
Results so far indicate that both the 1% and 2% dosages have positive hair loss benefits; however the more potent 2% formulation could have better results. Optimal usage is speculated at every third day, leaving the shampoo on the scalp for 3-5 minutes before rinsing. It has been stated that medications capable of maintaining the existing hair population should be regarded as effective treatments for androgenic alopecia. The present data suggests that ketoconazole should enter this group of drugs.[13]
benji is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
benji
23.03.2008, 10:33
@ benji
|
Second and Third Nizoral Study................. |
Second study:
Nizoral 1% Study Shows Benefits for Androgenetic Alopecia
March 04, 2001 - American Academy of Dermatology Meeting - Washington DC - Scientists working for McNeil, makers of Nizoral anti-dandruff shampoo, presented the findings of a study done on 1% Nizoral shampoo which has good news for hair loss sufferers. It has long been known that 2% prescription Nizoral has beneficial effects on Androgenic Alopecia (MPB). It however has been unclear whether the same benefits can be obtained by using the non-prescription 1% version.
In the study presented (see below), one hundred male volunteers with mild to moderate dandruff and somewhat oily scalp, were using, in a double-blind fashion, either a 1% Nizoral shampoo or a 1% zinc pyrithione shampoo, 2-3 times a week for 6 months.
Analysis of the different parameters set up in the study shows that the hair diameter gradually increased with Nizoral use (+8.46%) over a 6 month period, whereas the diameter showed a trend to decrease with zinc pyrithione use over the same period (-2.28%). The sebum excretion rate was reduced with Nizoral (-6.54%) while it increased with zinc pyrithione (+8.2%) over the same period of time. The number of hair shed over a 24-hour period was reduced by 16.46% with Nizoral and 6.02% with zinc pyrithione after 6 months. Finally, the percentage hairs in anagen phase increased by 6.4% and 8.4% respectively during the study time.
The results are similar to a previous study done on 2% prescription strength Nizoral where it was shown that use of 2% Nizoral yielded a 7% average increase in hair shaft diameter similar to what was achieved by the control group using 2% Minoxidil and a non-medicated shampoo.
So for any hair loss sufferer, this research clearly indicates that using 1% or 2% Nizoral 2-3 times per week, will have positive effects on hair growth as well as controlling dandruff. It is still unclear at this time whether it's the anti-fungal properties or the anti-androgenic properties of Ketokonazole (active ingredient in Nizoral) thats responsible for the hair thickening effects, however because of the decrease in sebum rates as well, it is the authors opinion that the results are due to the anti-androgenic properties of Ketokonazole.
Nizoral 1% Study
The effects of chronic use of 1% ketoconazole or a 1% zinc pyrithione shampoo on the general health of hair and scalp.
G. Piérard 1and G. Cauwenbergh2
1. Dept Dermatopathology, University of Liège, Belgium; 2. Skin research Center, Johnson &Johnson , Skillman, N.J., USA
Hundred male volunteers with mild to moderate dandruff and somewhat oily scalp, have used, in a double-blind fashion, a 1% ketoconazole shampoo or a 1% zinc pyrithione shampoo. The test shampoos were applied 2 to 3 times weekly for a total period of 6 months. Several parameters that affect the general health of hair and scalp were assessed at start, and after 1, 3 and 6 months. These parameters included the percent of hairs in anagen phase, the diameter of the hairs, sebum excretion rate at the hairline, and the number of hairs shed in the 24-hour period prior to each assessment. At the end of the study, the participants were asked to complete a questionnaire regarding the cosmetic acceptability of the test shampoos.
Forty-four ketoconazole users and forty-three zinc pyrithione users completed the 6 month study period. Analysis of the different parameters shows that the hair diameter gradually increases with chronic ketoconazole use (+8.46%) over a 6 month period, whereas the diameter shows a trend to decrease with zinc pyrithione use over the same period (-2.28%). The sebum excretion rate is reduced with ketoconazole (-6.54%) while it increases with zinc pyrithione (+8.2%) over the same period of time. The number of hair shed over a 24-hour period is reduced by 16.46% with ketoconazole and 6.02% with zinc pyrithione after 6 months. Finally, the percentage hairs in anagen phase increased by 6.4% and 8.4% respectively during the study time. Except for the percentage of hairs in anagen, which showed no difference between the two groups, all other parameters were significantly different in favor of the ketoconazole shampoo.
Both shampoos have been shown to be good anti-dandruff ingredients. Assessment of parameters than can affect the health of hair and scalp, suggests that both ingredients show distinct differences in the way they affect the scalp; indicating that ketoconazole increases hair diameter and reduces scalp oil, whereas zinc pyrithione seems to yield opposite effects. This suggests that, besides their effect on the lipophilic yeast Malassezia spp, ketoconazole and zinc pyrithione act though quite different mechanisms. An overall analysis of hair diameter changes as a function of changes in sebum excretion rate suggests that a reduction in scalp oiliness seems to result in an increased hair diameter. This suggests that, in people with oily hair, regular use of ketoconazole shampoo may result in overall hair fullness.
THIRD STUDY
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International Journal of Cosmetic Science
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October 2002, 24:5 > Nudging hair shedding by antidandruff... < Previous | Next >
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Nudging hair shedding by antidandruff shampoos. A comparison of 1% ketoconazole, 1% piroctone olamine and 1% zinc pyrithione formulations.
Original Articles
International Journal of Cosmetic Science. 24(5):249-256, October 2002.
Pierard-Franchimont, C.; Goffin, V.; Henry, F.; Uhoda, I.; Braham, C.; Pierard, G. E.
Abstract:
Synopsis: Hair shedding and hair thinning have been reported to be affected by dandruff and seborrhoeic dermatitis. The present study was conducted in 150 men presenting with telogen effluvium related to androgenic alopecia associated with dandruff. They were randomly allocated to three groups receiving each one of the three shampoos in the market containing either 1% ketoconazole (KTZ), 1% piroctone olamine (PTO) or 1% zinc pyrithione (ZPT). Shampoos had to be used 2-3 times a week for 6 months. Hair shedding during shampoo was evaluated semiquantitatively. Hair density on the vertex was evaluated on photographs using a Dermaphot. Trichograms were used for determining the anagen hair percentage and the mean proximal hair shaft diameter using computerized image analysis. The sebum excretion rate (SER, [mu]g cm-2 h-1) was also measured using a Sebumeter(R).
The three treatments cleared pruritus and dandruff rapidly. At end point, hair density was unchanged, although hair shedding was decreased (KTZ: -17.3%, PTO: -16.5%, ZPT: -10.1%) and the anagen hair percentage was increased (KTZ: 4.9%, PTO: 7.9%, ZPT: 6.8%). The effect on the mean hair shaft diameter was contrasted between the three groups of volunteers (KTZ: 5.4%, PTO: 7.7%, ZPT: -2.2%). In conclusion, telogen effluvium was controlled by KTZ, PTO and ZPT shampoos at 1% concentration. In addition, KTZ and PTO increased the mean hair shaft thickness while discretely decreasing the sebum output at the skin surface.
(C) 2002 Blackwell Science Ltd.
benji is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
benji
23.03.2008, 10:41
@ benji
|
Fourth Nizoral study |
i dont care what the studies say, i go by personal results Then you reject science, you do not need TO TYPE IN CAPS, that is considered RUDE Hangininthere calling ANYONE rude? That will prompt some smirksif you dont believe me, fine use the niz shampoo 10 times a day, Im saying it is too harsh The studies found Nizoral to be effective with twice a week usage up to four times a week usage.
plenty of guys say it is too harsh, and the cream stays on your head for hours, as opposed to about a minute with the shampoo..................u think putting hydrochloric acid is ok for your hair, then go for it Youre scalp is never more hydrated or pores more open that when you shampoo, dandruff shampoos work proving medication can enter the wet, warm, moist dermis perfectly fine. Nizoral's ketoconazole has been shown to stay in the dermis at theraputic concentration for 72 hours
But if you go by people's testimonials on regrowing hair, you will find these forums full of weird ideas and diets promising tons of new hair growth........none of them true
benji is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
benji
23.03.2008, 10:47
@ MPB
|
And this is where folica is most probably going to fail |
This is ALSO why Im worried about Follica.
Immuno deficient mice can see our MPB vellus hairs regenerate........so human skin being able to grow human hair on the mice when wounded might also be something that can't be replicated in humans.
We wont know until they have tried it, but its something to be concened about. The only thing I can think of that might induce hair growth for Follica if their standard protocol fails is to have the man be on cyclosporin for a few days before the wounding until the hair germs are detected and actively growing several days later.............perhaps about ten days of the stuff. If that didn't work, I doubt anything would.
It will be either HM or Follica in the near term...............I hoenstly cant think of anything else other than figuring out exactly what is going on that keeps miniaturized hairs small when one is on potent "enough" antiandrogens. If you are on both finasteride and apply fluridil (or revivogen), that anti-androgenic potency on the scalp should see your hairs re-enlarge after several months, but it doesn't happen. There has to be something else keeping them small, but I dont know if we can ever find it and counteract it.
benji is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
TAGOHL
23.03.2008, 12:23
@ benji
|
Vellus hairs and Donora area hairs equal when transplanted to mice |
» So what then is keeping our miniaturized hairs small on our own heads.
I have the full-text version of this study, which I will try to dig up today. The authors did spend time speculating on this very question. They felt it wasn't due to any differences in androgen levels between male and female mice and humans. They basically concluded that some unidentified factor is at play here.
BTW, I think the reason they chose immunodefienct mice is so that the grafts wouldn't be rejected. But I'll double-check this.
TAGOHL is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
TAGOHL
23.03.2008, 12:39
@ debris
|
And this is where follica is most probably going to fail |
» So because vellus hair grows into mature thick hair in these creatures on
» it's own and because follica treatment has been studied on the same
» creatures and no humans so far, it is very possible that in humans the
» treatment will grow only vellus hair which will never grow into mature
» hair because we are humans and not immunosuppressed mice which can do
» that.
It's not quite the same thing. The one study showed that pre-existing balding follicles could grow and enlarge again, similar to control hairs that were also transplanted onto these mice. If Follica is creating new hair follicles, and if these new follicles are not immediately sucseptible to AGA, I think they'll grow fine on the human scalp, just like the hair at the back and sides.
I think the *real* question here is what phenotype the newly created follicles take on. They can start 'balding' immediately or soon afterward (similar to follicles already on the way out due to AGA), they could 'bald' over a long period of time (similar to our existing follicles, which are good for at least 15-20 years after they are created in utero), or they never bald (similar to hair at the back and sides of the head.)
TAGOHL is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
cricket
23.03.2008, 13:39
@ benji
|
about tacrolimus ? |
Maybe the role of autoimmune reaction in aga is understimate.
What about new topical drugs like tacrolimus ?
I can't find one study about an hair growth connection ,so i think
no effect ...
Could someone give info ?
» Note: Performing your original search, vellus hairs mice alopecia, in
» PubMed will retrieve 6 citations.
»
» 1: J Am Acad Dermatol. 2003 May;48(5):752-9. Links
» Transplants from balding and hairy androgenetic alopecia scalp regrow hair
» comparably well on immunodeficient mice.Krajcik RA, Vogelman JH, Malloy VL,
» Orentreich N.
» Orentreich Foundation for the Advancement of Science Inc, Cold
» Spring-on-Hudson, New York 10516, USA. ofas1@juno.com
»
» Human hair follicles were grafted onto 2 strains of immunodeficient mice
» to compare the regeneration potential of vellus (miniaturized, balding)
» and terminal (hairy, nonbalding) follicles from males and a female
» exhibiting pattern baldness. Each mouse had transplants of both types of
» follicles from a single donor for direct comparison. Grafted follicles
» from 2 male donors resulted in nonsignificant differences in mean length
» (52 mm vs 54 mm) and mean diameter (99 microm vs 93 microm) at 22 weeks
» for hairs originating from balding and hairy scalp, respectively,
» corresponding to 400% versus 62% of the mean pretransplantation diameters.
» Follicles from the female donor transplanted to several mice also resulted
» in nonsignificant differences in length (43 mm vs 37 mm) for hairs from
» balding and hairy scalp, respectively, during a period of 22 weeks. The
» mean diameter of the originally vellus hairs increased 3-fold, whereas the
» terminal hairs plateaued at approximately 50% of pretransplantation
» diameter, resulting in a final balding hair volume double that of the
» nonbalding hairs. This report shows that miniaturized hair follicles of
» pattern alopecia can quickly regenerate once removed from the human scalp
» and can grow as well as or better than terminal follicles from the same
» individual.
»
» PMID: 12734505 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
»
»
»
»
» That is <> humiliating. We move our vellus hairs to
» mice, and they can regrow.......................dammit. Dutasteride wont
» get them back though.
cricket is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
HanginInThere
Hair loss University,
23.03.2008, 16:00
@ benji
|
Second Study ketoconazole Cream, ie Nizoral |
Title
Potentializing effect of ketoconazole on cyclosporin A-induced inhibition of keratinocyte DNA synthesis.
Author
Amsellem C; Haftek M; Thivolet J; De Doncker P; Schmitt D
Address
INSERM U 346 affiliée CNRS, Department of Dermatology, E. Herriot Hospital, Lyon, France.
Source
Acta Derm Venereol, 74: 4, 1994 Jul, 257-9
Abstract
Keratinocyte growth in vitro and DNA synthesis by epidermal cells in vivo are inhibited by therapeutic doses of cyclosporin A (CsA). This effect may be potentialized by topical treatment with ketoconazole, since this drug has been shown to inhibit CsA metabolism. Normal human skin grafts on nude mice receiving intraperitoneal injections of CsA were treated with ketoconazole cream or its placebo for 3 weeks. The keratinocyte DNA synthesis rate was evaluated through the rates of bromodeoxyuridine (BrdU) incorporation, and the trough blood levels of CsA were checked at the end of the experiment. Counting of the BrdU-labelled nuclei in human tissue sections confirmed a dose-dependent inhibition of BrdU incorporation by keratinocytes exposed to CsA. This CsA-induced inhibition was further increased in the animals treated with ketoconazole cream. This effect was best seen in the groups treated with the low-to-medium doses of CsA (12.5 and 25 mg/kg/day). However, the simultaneous increase in the circulating CsA levels was also observed in these animals. Based on our results, we speculate that the potentializing effect of ketoconazole on CsA-induced inhibition of keratinocyte DNA synthesis is systemic rather than local.
Language of Publication
English
Unique Identifier
95066569
HanginInThere is located in HAIR LOSS UNIVERSITY and he is available to meet: NO ---
Hangin..(ideal regimen) ........current regimen is just Saw Palmetto and Beta Sis
Maxi Hair by Country Life 2/day
Kal Amino Max ..Chelated Multi Mineral..2/day
DHT blockers (daily intake)
Saw Palmetto, 320mg Standardized
Pygeum 500mg
Nettles 500mg
Beta Sitosterol 125mg |
HanginInThere
Hair loss University,
23.03.2008, 16:15
@ benji
|
Japanese study nizoral CREAM ie Ketoconazole |
Your implication that the shampoo works better because of absorbing into a wet scalp, although on its face it may appear valid, does not hold true, since the study subjects all applied the cream immediately after shampooing, thus onto a WET SCALP,
http://www.hairsite.com/hair-loss/forum_entry-id-6113-page-4-category-3-order-last_answer.html
![[image]](http://download.journals.elsevierhealth.com/images/journalimages/0923-1811/PIIS0923181106002490.gr1.lrg.jpg)
Ketoconazole (KCZ), an imidazole anti-fungal agent, is known to be effective for the treatment of seborrheic dermatitis and dandruff. In addition, 2% KCZ shampoo was found to improve hair density and the size and proportion of anagen follicles in androgenetic alopecia (AGA) [1] and, in combination with finasteride, to have an additive effect for AGA [2]. Recently, it has been reported that topical application of KCZ stimulates hair growth in C3H/HeN mice [3]. However, whether topical KCZ is effective enough to improve the clinical appearance of AGA is not yet clear. We therefore carried out an open trial of topical 2% KCZ lotion (Nizoral®) in combination with shampoos. Furthermore, to identify the mechanism, which can explain the clinical effect of KCZ on AGA, we performed transient transfection assays using CV-1 cells transfected with androgen receptors (AR).
The six Japanese males from 23 to 51 years old were enrolled in this study with their written informed consent. They presented with grade II vertex to IVa AGA according to the Hamilton–Norwood classification [4]. The subjects applied topical 2% KCZ lotion (Nizoral®) almost every day during or immediately after hair washing with their own unmedicated shampoos. When they revisited our clinic every several months, clinical pictures were obtained to determine the efficacy of the treatment. Two of the men, one 23 years old with grade II vertex and the other 25 years old with Va AGA, showed remarkable hair regrowth after 6 and 10 months, respectively (Fig. 1). The 23-year-old male stopped using KCZ and 3 months later hair loss recurrence on the vertex was noted (Fig. 1c). When he started using KCZ again during shampooing, hairs on the vertex grew again after 3 months (Fig. 1d). These findings constitute evidence of the clinical efficacy of KCZ for AGA. A 41-year-old male showed a slight increase in vertex hair growth after 1 year. Other three of the men, 31, 38 and 51 years old did not show significant improvement. These findings suggest that topical KCZ with shampoo can be effective for some males with AGA.
Fig. 1. A 23-year-old Japanese man who used 2% ketoconazole (KCZ) lotion during shampooing everyday. Six months later, hair regrowth was attained (b) in comparison with the pre-treatment condition (a). Suspension of use for 3 months, however, caused recurrent hair loss (c). Renewed use of KCZ induced renewed growth of vertex hair (d). A 25-year-old Japanese man with AGA (e) applied 2% KCZ lotion immediately after shampooing everyday. Ten months later, hair regrowth was apparent (f).
To identify the mechanism, which can explain the effect of KCZ on AGA, we performed transient transfection assays using an androgen-responsive synthetic promoter for CV-1 cells transfected with AR. At 50–70% confluency in a 24-well plate, the CV-1 cells, maintained in Dulbecco's modified Eagle's medium (DMEM) supplemented with 10% fetal bovine serum, were transfected with the transfection reagent Fugene-6 (Roche Diagnostics Corp., Indianapolis, IN, USA) according to the manufacturer's instructions. For luciferase assays, we transfected 0.1μg of the reporter plasmid, pGL2-GRE3-bG-luc [5], 12.5ng of pCI-neo-BamX-AR(Gly23) [5] and 0.2μg of the pRL-CMV vector, the Renilla luciferase control reporter vector driven by the CMV immediate-early enhancer/promoter, as the internal controls. At 24h after transfection, we added fresh DMEM supplemented with 10% charcoal-treated fetal bovine serum with methyltrienolone (R1881, a stable synthetic androgen) or ethanol as a mock vehicle. The cells were also treated with KCZ (Janssen, L.P., Titusville, NJ) or ethanol as a mock vehicle. At 48h after transfection, the cells were harvested for luciferase assays. Luciferase activities were measured with a luminometer using the Dual-Luciferase™ reporter assay system (Promega, Madison, WI). The results were summarized from three independent sets of transfections and presented as mean±S.D.; statistical significance was tested with Student's t-test. The results demonstrated that 10 or 20μg/ml KCZ reduced luciferase activity to 67.5% (p<0.01) or 49.9% (p<0.03), respectively, reflecting its suppressive action on AR (Fig. 2). This finding suggests that KCZ improves AGA through the suppression of AR activity.
Fig. 2. KCZ effect on R1881-induced AR transcactivity in CV-1 cells transfected with AR. We used the transfection reagent Fugene-6 (Roche Diagnostics Corp., Indianapolis, IN, USA) to transfect 0.1μg of the reporter plasmid, pGL2-GRE3-bG-luc, 12.5ng of pCI-neo-BamX-AR(Gly23) and 0.2μg of pRL-CMV vector (lanes 1–6) into CV-1 cells cultured at 50–70% confluency in a 24-well plate. The infected cells were treated with 10−9M R1881 (lanes 2–6) or ethanol as a mock vehicle (lane 1). After overnight incubation, KCZ at the indicated concentration was added to the cultures. The activities of the various reporter genes were compared with the luciferase activity in the presence of R1881 and the absence of KCZ (lane 2).
Dermal papilla cells are the main targets for androgen in hair follicles, as evidenced by immunohistochemistry [6] and reporter assays [7] for the detection of AR. Deep penetration of KCZ into dermal papilla is therefore necessary to realize the suppressive action on androgen in vivo. The use of KCZ in combination with detergent containing shampoos in this study may enhance KCZ penetration. On the other hand, a recent study demonstrated that KCZ stimulates hair growth in mice [3], suggesting that its effect on hair is androgen independent. To summarize, KCZ may exert its effect on AGA in both an androgen-dependent and -independent manner.
References
return to Article Outline
[1]. [1]Pierard-Franchimont C, De Doncker P, Cauwenbergh G, Pierard GE. Ketoconazole shampoo: effect of long-term use in androgenic alopecia. Dermatology. 1998;196:474–477. MEDLINE | CrossRef
[2]. [2]Khandpur S, Suman M, Reddy BS. Comparative efficacy of various treatment regimens for androgenetic alopecia in men. J Dermatol. 2002;29:489–498. MEDLINE
[3]. [3]Jiang J, Tsuboi R, Kojima Y, Ogawa H. Topical application of ketoconazole stimulates hair growth in C3H/HeN mice. J Dermatol. 2005;32:243–247. MEDLINE
[4]. [4]Norwood OT. Male pattern baldness: classification and incidence. South Med J. 1975;68:1359–1365. MEDLINE
[5]. [5]Inui S, Nakao T, Itami S. Modulation of androgen receptor transcriptional activity by anti-acne reagents. J Dermatol Sci. 2004;36:97–101. Abstract | Full Text | Full-Text PDF (135 KB) | MEDLINE | CrossRef
[6]. [6]Itami S, Kurata S, Sonoda T, Takayasu S. Interaction between dermal papilla cells and follicular epithelial cells in vitro: effect of androgen. Br J Dermatol. 1995;132:527–532. MEDLINE
[7]. [7]Inui S, Itami S, Pan HJ, Chang C. Lack of androgen transcriptional activity in human keratinocytes. J Dermatol Sci. 2000;23:87–92. Abstract | Full Text | Full-Text PDF (106 KB) | MEDLINE | CrossRef
HanginInThere is located in HAIR LOSS UNIVERSITY and he is available to meet: NO ---
Hangin..(ideal regimen) ........current regimen is just Saw Palmetto and Beta Sis
Maxi Hair by Country Life 2/day
Kal Amino Max ..Chelated Multi Mineral..2/day
DHT blockers (daily intake)
Saw Palmetto, 320mg Standardized
Pygeum 500mg
Nettles 500mg
Beta Sitosterol 125mg |
HanginInThere
Hair loss University,
23.03.2008, 16:24
@ benji
|
Study comparing Keto Cream to Keto Foam, |
This study compares the keto foam to the keto cream, and finds that they are both equally effective., however the study was for dandruff, the main purpose that the cream is sold for. Why are they not comparing it to the shampoo if the shampoo is so effective as you claim?
Ketoconazole 2% Foam as Effective as Ketoconazole 2% Cream for Seborrhoeic Dermatitis: Presented at AAD
By Bruce Sylvester
WASHINGTON, DC -- February 13, 2004 -- The investigative foam formulation of ketoconazole 2% is as effective for seborrhoeic dermatitis as ketoconazole 2% cream, researchers reported on February 9th here at the American Academy of Dermatology 62nd Annual Meeting.
"The efficacy data from this study demonstrate that ketoconazole foam is non-inferior (similar or better than) to ketoconazole cream," the investigators noted. "The data also demonstrate that ketoconazole foam was safe and well tolerated," they added.
The researchers enrolled 619 subjects (12 years or older and diagnosed with seborrhoeic dermatitis) in this 4-week multicentre, randomised, double-blind, double-dummy, placebo-controlled study.
The subjects were randomised to 1 of 4 study cohorts: active foam (n = 233), active cream (n = 233) or their vehicles (foam, n = 77 and cream, n = 76). Subjects self-administered twice each day.
The primary endpoint was the proportion of subjects with an Investigator's Static Global Assessment (ISGA) score of 0-1 at endpoint, defined as "treatment success."
The secondary endpoint was percent change from baseline to 4 weeks in sum of scores of the signs of seborrhoeic dermatitis (erythaema, scaling and induration) at target area.
The investigators also noted the proportion of subjects achieving a 0 ISGA, or "clear," for all groups.
The difference in "treatment success" rate between foam and cream was 5.58%. There was a "trend in favor of ketoconazole foam versus foam vehicle," the investigators reported. "Treatment success was achieved by 50% of patients treated with ketoconazole foam, and 44% of patients treated with ketoconazole cream," they said.
For improvement in sum of scores from baseline to endpoint (intent-to-treat population), the difference between ketoconazole foam and cream formulations was 4.48 %. "The median percent change from baseline in the sum of scores of signs of seborrhoeic dermatitis at the target area was 80% for ketoconazole foam and 67% for ketoconazole cream," the investigators noted.
For a "clear" score of 0 on ISGA at Week 4 (intent-to-treat population), the reported difference between ketoconazole foam and ketoconazole cream formulations was 6.44%.
"Additionally, an ISGA score of 'clear' was achieved by 39% of patients treated with ketoconazole foam, and 33% of patients treated with ketoconazole cream," the authors wrote.
The researchers added that the most frequent adverse ketoconazole-foam reactions were mild and transient application-site reactions, resulting in no early subject withdrawals from the study.
[A Randomized, Double-Blind, Double-Dummy, Placebo-Controlled Study of the Safety and Efficacy of Ketoconazole Foam, 2%, Versus Ketoconazole 2% Cream in the Treatment of Seborrheic Dermatitis. Abstract 397]
HanginInThere is located in HAIR LOSS UNIVERSITY and he is available to meet: NO ---
Hangin..(ideal regimen) ........current regimen is just Saw Palmetto and Beta Sis
Maxi Hair by Country Life 2/day
Kal Amino Max ..Chelated Multi Mineral..2/day
DHT blockers (daily intake)
Saw Palmetto, 320mg Standardized
Pygeum 500mg
Nettles 500mg
Beta Sitosterol 125mg |
HanginInThere
Hair loss University,
23.03.2008, 16:32
@ benji
|
You will see a lot complaining about the Shampoo |
You will see a lot complaining about the Shampoo
HanginInThere is located in HAIR LOSS UNIVERSITY and he is available to meet: NO ---
Hangin..(ideal regimen) ........current regimen is just Saw Palmetto and Beta Sis
Maxi Hair by Country Life 2/day
Kal Amino Max ..Chelated Multi Mineral..2/day
DHT blockers (daily intake)
Saw Palmetto, 320mg Standardized
Pygeum 500mg
Nettles 500mg
Beta Sitosterol 125mg |
HanginInThere
Hair loss University,
23.03.2008, 16:37
@ benji
|
What is YOUR personal testimonial |
also as to the nizoral shampoo, have YOU regrown hair with the shampoo? If not , and all you can do is post some studies..............then you do not have any credibility on the board, and you will become just another Jacob, who posts studies but has no personal results of his own.
Studies, as I said, mean nothing, if YOU do not achieve success with that product or supplement or treatment. What good is a study saying X percent of trialists got success with XYZ, if it did not work ON YOU.
Me with Nizoral cream, yes I used it, yes I recommend it, yes I think my hair is much stronger, less fragile, and even though I have been off my supplements, oral DHT blockers for about 3 months , my hair has not deteriorated now, since using the NIZ cream.
that NEVER happened before. If i went off my supps, within 3 months I would lose 1 third of my hair, before using NIZ
THAT is a personal testimonial, do YOU have the same to offer to the board
HanginInThere is located in HAIR LOSS UNIVERSITY and he is available to meet: NO ---
Hangin..(ideal regimen) ........current regimen is just Saw Palmetto and Beta Sis
Maxi Hair by Country Life 2/day
Kal Amino Max ..Chelated Multi Mineral..2/day
DHT blockers (daily intake)
Saw Palmetto, 320mg Standardized
Pygeum 500mg
Nettles 500mg
Beta Sitosterol 125mg |
benji
23.03.2008, 22:57
@ HanginInThere
|
What is YOUR personal testimonial |
Hangin,
I never said that the shampoo was BETTER than the cream. The cream is almost assuredly better...................but the shampoo has been shown to be helpful in AGA.
My "regimine" for the most part is finasteride (never had any side effects), nizoral about twice a week, and copper peptides (usually prox-n after the shower). My results are that my hair has gotten darker over the years Ive done this. I rotate tricomin in with the prox-n (cheaper) also. Ive kept what I have had since about 03' very well, but haven't regrown my temples. I like to spray a blast of tricomin mist in my face-----it helps you look younger.
Im not saying keto cream isn't effective..............I know its effective. I just dont want more than about one topical. The anti-androgenic effect of both finas and nizoral are probably "enough" to keep what one has. Im not diggin' on your regimine. I do however, disagree with the assertion that nizoral is useless or that shampoo isn't an acceptable way to get an indication to the dermis. Its not as effective as a cream or foam or spray, but it can indeed get some effect. Chuck Fraiser has NANO shampoo pictures and you can tell he got thickening on it -alone-with no other treatment. They are on HLT.
No flames.....................Im tired. The board is "tired". Just trying to find out as much as possible and bounce it off what others have been able to pick up and show with studies or reason. Thats all we have at this point. 
benji is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
benji
24.03.2008, 00:04
@ TAGOHL
|
And this is where follica is most probably going to fail |
» »we are humans and not immunosuppressed mice which can do
» » that.
»
» It's not quite the same thing. The one study showed that pre-existing
» balding follicles could grow and enlarge again, similar to control hairs
» that were also transplanted onto these mice. If Follica is creating new
» hair follicles, and if these new follicles are not immediately sucseptible
» to AGA, I think they'll grow fine on the human scalp, just like the hair at
» the back and sides.
»
» I think the *real* question here is what phenotype the newly created
» follicles take on. They can start 'balding' immediately or soon afterward
» (similar to follicles already on the way out due to AGA), they could
» 'bald' over a long period of time (similar to our existing follicles,
» which are good for at least 15-20 years after they are created in utero),
» or they never bald (similar to hair at the back and sides of the head.)
IM guessing that they, if they have the same genetic makeup of the hairs that were "there" would bald a few years afterwards because of the adult levels of androgen that they would face...........Its hard for me to imagine that they would get a "second" childhood period of twelve years or whatever where they are just fine.
I must admit about using anti-androgens during the "making" process though. High androgens in fetal development are linked with long ring fingers on males and females. More aggression and althletic performance (females) are linked with this statistically. Fluridil and Cyteperone Acentate and spiro are mentioned in the patent. Perhpas if androgens are low enough during these hairs development, perhaps the defective androgen receptor gene would not form in such a way as to lead to later baldness? Fluridil was shown to down the very presence of androgen receptor sites over time..............
Science would be getting a "second change" to make hair during the follica process if its "doable". Perhaps the precise genes that lead to baldness could be "blocked" during this time? Im hopeful for this approach..........and honestly have considered trying it on myself after really delving into the patent. Lithium chloride is cheap and obtainable and pure apple juice has polyphenols that block the EGF receptor. NO-mimetics like argnine and minox are available to us. I wish they'd get the ball rolling at follica and test some guys. If you cant tell, Im anxious for human baldness to be a thing of the past..........for all of us.
benji is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
BRUTUS
24.03.2008, 00:09
@ cricket
|
about tacrolimus ? |
Has anyone heard of this stuff?
Part III.Wound Healing, Inflammation, and Fibrosis
Thymosin Beta 4 Induces Hair Growth via Stem Cell Migration and Differentiation
DEBORAH PHILPa, SHARLEEN ST-SURINa, HEE-JAE CHAa, HYE-SUNG MOONa, HYNDA K. KLEINMANa AND MICHAEL ELKINa
a Cell Biology Section, NIDCR, NIH, Bethesda, Maryland, USA
Key Words: cell migration • hair follicle growth • angiogenesis • wound healing • stem cells • cell survival • inflammation • gene expression • laminin-5 • proteases • zyxin • endothelial cells • thymosin beta 4 • keratinocytes • MMPs • TIMPs
Address for correspondence: Hynda K. Kleinman, Ph.D., Cell Biology Section, NIH, NIDCR, Building 30, Room 433, 30 Convent Dr. MSC 4370, Bethesda, MD 20892. Voice: 301-496-4069; fax: 301-402-0897. hkleinman@dir.nidcr.nih.gov
Thymosin beta 4 is a small 43-amino-acid molecule that has multiple biological activities, including promotion of cell migration angiogenesis, cell survival, protease production, and wound healing. We have found that thymosin beta 4 promotes hair growth in various rat and mice models including a transgenic thymosin beta 4 overexpressing mouse. We have also determined the mechanism by which thymosin beta 4 acts to promote hair growth by examining its effects on follicle stem cell growth, migration, differentiation, and protease production.
Part III.Wound Healing, Inflammation, and Fibrosis
Thymosin Beta 4 Induces Hair Growth via Stem Cell Migration and Differentiation
DEBORAH PHILPa, SHARLEEN ST-SURINa, HEE-JAE CHAa, HYE-SUNG MOONa, HYNDA K. KLEINMANa AND MICHAEL ELKINa
a Cell Biology Section, NIDCR, NIH, Bethesda, Maryland, USA
Key Words: cell migration • hair follicle growth • angiogenesis • wound healing • stem cells • cell survival • inflammation • gene expression • laminin-5 • proteases • zyxin • endothelial cells • thymosin beta 4 • keratinocytes • MMPs • TIMPs
Address for correspondence: Hynda K. Kleinman, Ph.D., Cell Biology Section, NIH, NIDCR, Building 30, Room 433, 30 Convent Dr. MSC 4370, Bethesda, MD 20892. Voice: 301-496-4069; fax: 301-402-0897. hkleinman@dir.nidcr.nih.gov
Thymosin beta 4 is a small 43-amino-acid molecule that has multiple biological activities, including promotion of cell migration angiogenesis, cell survival, protease production, and wound healing. We have found that thymosin beta 4 promotes hair growth in various rat and mice models including a transgenic thymosin beta 4 overexpressing mouse. We have also determined the mechanism by which thymosin beta 4 acts to promote hair growth by examining its effects on follicle stem cell growth, migration, differentiation, and protease production.
BRUTUS is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
HanginInThere
Hair loss University,
24.03.2008, 00:35
@ benji
|
What is YOUR personal testimonial |
» Hangin,
»
» I never said that the shampoo was BETTER than the cream. The cream is
» almost assuredly better...................but the shampoo has been shown
» to be helpful in AGA.
»
» My "regimine" for the most part is finasteride (never had any side
» effects), nizoral about twice a week, and copper peptides (usually prox-n
» after the shower). My results are that my hair has gotten darker over the
» years Ive done this. I rotate tricomin in with the prox-n (cheaper) also.
» Ive kept what I have had since about 03' very well, but haven't regrown my
» temples. I like to spray a blast of tricomin mist in my face-----it helps
» you look younger.
»
»
»
» Im not saying keto cream isn't effective..............I know its
» effective. I just dont want more than about one topical. The
» anti-androgenic effect of both finas and nizoral are probably "enough" to
» keep what one has. Im not diggin' on your regimine. I do however, disagree
» with the assertion that nizoral is useless or that shampoo isn't an
» acceptable way to get an indication to the dermis. Its not as effective as
» a cream or foam or spray, but it can indeed get some effect. Chuck Fraiser
» has NANO shampoo pictures and you can tell he got thickening on it
» -alone-with no other treatment. They are on HLT.
»
»
»
» No flames.....................Im tired. The board is "tired". Just trying
» to find out as much as possible and bounce it off what others have been
» able to pick up and show with studies or reason. Thats all we have at this
» point.
if you can keep what you have that is , way more difficult than most guys realize.
If most guys on the board could just keep what they have, no regrowth, they would be ecstatic
However
in order to even keep what you have, you must cure a lot of the problems that are causing the problem in the first place, example clean out a lot of DHT with prop, fin, natural 5 ar blockers, etc which is what I did, and that in turn causes a lot of thickening and regrowth. in thinning areas, the bald areas are almost impossible to fix though, with any regimen short of a hair transplant
if you are not on super hair vitamin, i think you might want to try it, I have heard nothing but positive feedback on it, and I havce taken them for 20 yrs. I would never stop taking them, i think they help tremendously with hair strength, growth rate, keeps hair from breaking off, etc etc etc. overall hair health. They will cause some regrowth in the early stages of thinning, but not in the later stages if you have high DHT accumulation
HanginInThere is located in HAIR LOSS UNIVERSITY and he is available to meet: NO ---
Hangin..(ideal regimen) ........current regimen is just Saw Palmetto and Beta Sis
Maxi Hair by Country Life 2/day
Kal Amino Max ..Chelated Multi Mineral..2/day
DHT blockers (daily intake)
Saw Palmetto, 320mg Standardized
Pygeum 500mg
Nettles 500mg
Beta Sitosterol 125mg |
TAGOHL
24.03.2008, 19:54
@ benji
|
And this is where follica is most probably going to fail |
» Lithium chloride is cheap and obtainable
» and pure apple juice has polyphenols that block the EGF receptor.
Shoot, I have tons of lithium. In the past, I was considering taking a piece of sandpaper and abrading a very small section of skin on my stomach or side, and then applying some lithium daily to see what happens. I wouldn't know what dose to use, though. When i get really bored, I'll play around.
TAGOHL is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
benji
24.03.2008, 23:06
@ TAGOHL
|
And this is where follica is most probably going to fail |
» » Lithium chloride is cheap and obtainable
» » and pure apple juice has polyphenols that block the EGF receptor.
»
» Shoot, I have tons of lithium. In the past, I was considering taking a
» piece of sandpaper and abrading a very small section of skin on my stomach
» or side, and then applying some lithium daily to see what happens. I
» wouldn't know what dose to use, though. When i get really bored, I'll play
» around.
Ive looked at the patent. The re-epilithialization period for human skin is much shorter than in mouse skin. Human hair germs were detected in seven days after wounding. Ive seen a picture that I cant link to the rest of the board, but it was very impressive. The guy who runs "tressless.com" had the photo and sent it to me in my email at HLT. I dont have the link, but ALOT of new hair was forming in the mouse skin and it was impressive.
I think by reading the patent, they will add the wnt from 3 to 5 days POST wounding, along with the egf-receptor blocker. Did you know lithium chloride used to be considered as a replacement for table salt? It tastes like table salt. It has long-term toxicity, but I imagine just eating some of it on an apple might get enough in the blood stream to get to the scalp (Im always amazed at just how little a finasteride pill is, and the fact that .2mgs is almost as effective as 1 full pill---and how it can do what it does to scalp hair). I am just hoping it can "make" hair in the donor area---to give us more donor hair so it can be moved up front. If your donor area was 50% thicker, just think of how much one could transplant without having an un-natural thinness (have seen this in person several times) in the back? It would be a de facto "solution" for most all of us unless one was way up on the norwood scale. The patent "schedule" looked like this...........pluck hair-wait three days............abrade-wait 3 to 5 days.........apply topical or take internals until 9 days after wound date. That was it. The epilithial layer was all that had to be removed until skin was pink, shiny, and smooth. There was no blood.
If one done this, I wouldn't expect the hair made to differ from the hair that occured in whatever body part it was done on though........
To remove hair, they simply plucked hair, wait three days..........abrade........and apply epidermal growth factor after skin re-epilithialized. No more hair. That might be something they could do if they hit "a home run" and it worked wonderfully to get rid of the vellus hairs one has in balding areas (and their respective full-sized sebaceous glands), but that is of course getting way ahead of the game. Im wishing them luck, but temper my expectations until I see in vivo human proof. But I AM glad someone is trying this, as I hate to put all my eggs in the HM basket in case its not doable.
benji is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
MPB
25.03.2008, 06:16
@ benji
|
And this is where follica is most probably going to fail |
»
»
» To remove hair, they simply plucked hair, wait three
» days..........abrade........and apply epidermal growth factor after skin
» re-epilithialized. No more hair. That might be something they could do if
» they hit "a home run" and it worked wonderfully to get rid of the vellus
» hairs one has in balding areas (and their respective full-sized sebaceous
» glands), but that is of course getting way ahead of the game. Im wishing
» them luck, but temper my expectations until I see in vivo human proof. But
» I AM glad someone is trying this, as I hate to put all my eggs in the HM
» basket in case its not doable.
What is the purpose for plucking the hair... what biological mechanism does this provoke?
MPB has 1 Personal Journal(s). Click here to view
MPB is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
mjones
04.11.2008, 15:20
@ HanginInThere
|
Japanese study nizoral CREAM ie Ketoconazole |
» Your implication that the shampoo works better because of absorbing into
» a wet scalp, although on its face it may appear valid, does not hold true,
» since the study subjects all applied the cream immediately after
» shampooing, thus onto a WET SCALP,
»
»
» http://www.hairsite.com/hair-loss/forum_entry-id-6113-page-4-category-3-order-last_answer.html
»
»
»
» Ketoconazole (KCZ), an imidazole anti-fungal agent, is known to be
» effective for the treatment of seborrheic dermatitis and dandruff. In
» addition, 2% KCZ shampoo was found to improve hair density and the size and
» proportion of anagen follicles in androgenetic alopecia (AGA) [1] and, in
» combination with finasteride, to have an additive effect for AGA [2].
» Recently, it has been reported that topical application of KCZ stimulates
» hair growth in C3H/HeN mice [3]. However, whether topical KCZ is effective
» enough to improve the clinical appearance of AGA is not yet clear. We
» therefore carried out an open trial of topical 2% KCZ lotion (Nizoral®) in
» combination with shampoos. Furthermore, to identify the mechanism, which
» can explain the clinical effect of KCZ on AGA, we performed transient
» transfection assays using CV-1 cells transfected with androgen receptors
» (AR).
»
» The six Japanese males from 23 to 51 years old were enrolled in this study
» with their written informed consent. They presented with grade II vertex to
» IVa AGA according to the Hamilton–Norwood classification [4]. The subjects
» applied topical 2% KCZ lotion (Nizoral®) almost every day during or
» immediately after hair washing with their own unmedicated shampoos. When
» they revisited our clinic every several months, clinical pictures were
» obtained to determine the efficacy of the treatment. Two of the men, one 23
» years old with grade II vertex and the other 25 years old with Va AGA,
» showed remarkable hair regrowth after 6 and 10 months, respectively (Fig.
» 1). The 23-year-old male stopped using KCZ and 3 months later hair loss
» recurrence on the vertex was noted (Fig. 1c). When he started using KCZ
» again during shampooing, hairs on the vertex grew again after 3 months
» (Fig. 1d). These findings constitute evidence of the clinical efficacy of
» KCZ for AGA. A 41-year-old male showed a slight increase in vertex hair
» growth after 1 year. Other three of the men, 31, 38 and 51 years old did
» not show significant improvement. These findings suggest that topical KCZ
» with shampoo can be effective for some males with AGA.
»
»
»
» Fig. 1. A 23-year-old Japanese man who used 2% ketoconazole (KCZ) lotion
» during shampooing everyday. Six months later, hair regrowth was attained
» (b) in comparison with the pre-treatment condition (a). Suspension of use
» for 3 months, however, caused recurrent hair loss (c). Renewed use of KCZ
» induced renewed growth of vertex hair (d). A 25-year-old Japanese man with
» AGA (e) applied 2% KCZ lotion immediately after shampooing everyday. Ten
» months later, hair regrowth was apparent (f).
»
» To identify the mechanism, which can explain the effect of KCZ on AGA, we
» performed transient transfection assays using an androgen-responsive
» synthetic promoter for CV-1 cells transfected with AR. At 50–70% confluency
» in a 24-well plate, the CV-1 cells, maintained in Dulbecco's modified
» Eagle's medium (DMEM) supplemented with 10% fetal bovine serum, were
» transfected with the transfection reagent Fugene-6 (Roche Diagnostics
» Corp., Indianapolis, IN, USA) according to the manufacturer's instructions.
» For luciferase assays, we transfected 0.1μg of the reporter plasmid,
» pGL2-GRE3-bG-luc [5], 12.5ng of pCI-neo-BamX-AR(Gly23) [5] and 0.2μg
» of the pRL-CMV vector, the Renilla luciferase control reporter vector
» driven by the CMV immediate-early enhancer/promoter, as the internal
» controls. At 24h after transfection, we added fresh DMEM supplemented with
» 10% charcoal-treated fetal bovine serum with methyltrienolone (R1881, a
» stable synthetic androgen) or ethanol as a mock vehicle. The cells were
» also treated with KCZ (Janssen, L.P., Titusville, NJ) or ethanol as a mock
» vehicle. At 48h after transfection, the cells were harvested for luciferase
» assays. Luciferase activities were measured with a luminometer using the
» Dual-Luciferase™ reporter assay system (Promega, Madison, WI). The results
» were summarized from three independent sets of transfections and presented
» as mean±S.D.; statistical significance was tested with Student's t-test.
» The results demonstrated that 10 or 20μg/ml KCZ reduced luciferase
» activity to 67.5% (p<0.01) or 49.9% (p<0.03), respectively, reflecting its
» suppressive action on AR (Fig. 2). This finding suggests that KCZ improves
» AGA through the suppression of AR activity.
»
»
»
» Fig. 2. KCZ effect on R1881-induced AR transcactivity in CV-1 cells
» transfected with AR. We used the transfection reagent Fugene-6 (Roche
» Diagnostics Corp., Indianapolis, IN, USA) to transfect 0.1μg of the
» reporter plasmid, pGL2-GRE3-bG-luc, 12.5ng of pCI-neo-BamX-AR(Gly23) and
» 0.2μg of pRL-CMV vector (lanes 1–6) into CV-1 cells cultured at 50–70%
» confluency in a 24-well plate. The infected cells were treated with
» 10−9M R1881 (lanes 2–6) or ethanol as a mock vehicle (lane 1). After
» overnight incubation, KCZ at the indicated concentration was added to the
» cultures. The activities of the various reporter genes were compared with
» the luciferase activity in the presence of R1881 and the absence of KCZ
» (lane 2).
»
» Dermal papilla cells are the main targets for androgen in hair follicles,
» as evidenced by immunohistochemistry [6] and reporter assays [7] for the
» detection of AR. Deep penetration of KCZ into dermal papilla is therefore
» necessary to realize the suppressive action on androgen in vivo. The use of
» KCZ in combination with detergent containing shampoos in this study may
» enhance KCZ penetration. On the other hand, a recent study demonstrated
» that KCZ stimulates hair growth in mice [3], suggesting that its effect on
» hair is androgen independent. To summarize, KCZ may exert its effect on AGA
» in both an androgen-dependent and -independent manner.
»
»
»
»
» References
» return to Article Outline
»
» [1]. [1]Pierard-Franchimont C, De Doncker P, Cauwenbergh G, Pierard GE.
» Ketoconazole shampoo: effect of long-term use in androgenic alopecia.
» Dermatology. 1998;196:474–477. MEDLINE | CrossRef
»
» [2]. [2]Khandpur S, Suman M, Reddy BS. Comparative efficacy of various
» treatment regimens for androgenetic alopecia in men. J Dermatol.
» 2002;29:489–498. MEDLINE
»
» [3]. [3]Jiang J, Tsuboi R, Kojima Y, Ogawa H. Topical application of
» ketoconazole stimulates hair growth in C3H/HeN mice. J Dermatol.
» 2005;32:243–247. MEDLINE
»
» [4]. [4]Norwood OT. Male pattern baldness: classification and incidence.
» South Med J. 1975;68:1359–1365. MEDLINE
»
» [5]. [5]Inui S, Nakao T, Itami S. Modulation of androgen receptor
» transcriptional activity by anti-acne reagents. J Dermatol Sci.
» 2004;36:97–101. Abstract | Full Text | Full-Text PDF (135 KB) | MEDLINE |
» CrossRef
»
» [6]. [6]Itami S, Kurata S, Sonoda T, Takayasu S. Interaction between
» dermal papilla cells and follicular epithelial cells in vitro: effect of
» androgen. Br J Dermatol. 1995;132:527–532. MEDLINE
»
» [7]. [7]Inui S, Itami S, Pan HJ, Chang C. Lack of androgen transcriptional
» activity in human keratinocytes. J Dermatol Sci. 2000;23:87–92. Abstract |
» Full Text | Full-Text PDF (106 KB) | MEDLINE | CrossRef
So was this the shampoo they used that grew the hair or the cream after?? I use 2% Keto for like 2 weeks now..3x a week...makes my hair thicker and fuller....but do i need to use a cream nizoral after?? Can some one explain it to me....??
mjones is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Amilcar
04.11.2008, 17:30
@ benji
|
I've this idea |
What if we move our vellus hair (from the MPB area) back to the donor area ? will it grow back ? If it does all we have to do is a process of getting the donor to the balding areas and visversa..should I file for a Patent ???
Amilcar is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
thegreek
04.11.2008, 19:19
@ Amilcar
|
I've this idea |
» What if we move our vellus hair (from the MPB area) back to the donor area
» ? will it grow back ? If it does all we have to do is a process of getting
» the donor to the balding areas and visversa..should I file for a Patent ???
when do you think you can have something on the market?5 years?
thegreek has 1 Personal Journal(s). Click here to view
thegreek is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
HairKing
04.11.2008, 19:35
@ thegreek
|
I've this idea |
I believe in the Secret and asked the "Universe" what the missing link to Benji's question is and it said the answer is related to viruses , polarity and electromagnetism.....
http://jeffsutherland.com/complementary/2004/10/why-do-people-go-bald.html
Intrigued by comments on hair loss and frequency effects I analyzed many different cases of Alopecia Areata. Recently, my son returned from Baghdad with an itchy scalp and sure enough, he picked up the "bald head virus!" It was a good opportunity to test him carefully and update the frequencies.
In every case of complete hair lost I found a virus with frequency 365466 and in most cases of partial hair loss, I found the bacterial form of the virus predominated with frequency 254466. As you will recall from previous postings with a photo of the SV40 virus attacking a cell, there are four components of a virus that can be seen in the photo. So you need four frequencies.
In testing a few people with little hair loss I found the same organism so the virus is quite widespread. I suspect that the observed genetic predisposal to hair loss is confounded by the fact that familial infections are common.
In any event, the following F100 program wipes out the virus. If you have a plasma device that only operates below 10000hz, then devide the frequencies by 64.
repeat 60
dwell 60
duty 50
pulse 64 75
converge 23 1
365466
254456
155646
65636
end repeat
posted by Jeff Sutherland
HairKing is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Amilcar
04.11.2008, 19:42
@ thegreek
|
I've this idea |
» » What if we move our vellus hair (from the MPB area) back to the donor
» area
» » ? will it grow back ? If it does all we have to do is a process of
» getting
» » the donor to the balding areas and visversa..should I file for a Patent
» ???
»
» when do you think you can have something on the market?5 years?
lol , We dont really know, we are doing everything we can.
Amilcar is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
saturn
05.11.2008, 15:14
@ benji
|
And this is where follica is most probably going to fail |
Could we use Daktarin Gold?
saturn is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
cal
05.11.2008, 18:35
@ saturn
|
And this is where follica is most probably going to fail |
I think you guys are worrying too much over this mice & immune issue. I don't see what this issue changes about the Folica situation.
Regardless of the immune system suppression results, the bottom line is that the mice with human skin grafts are producing some entirely new human hair follicles that didn't previously exist. Maybe they needed immune suppression to form, but we can do that temporarily on ourselves too if we have to.
These are gonna be new follicles. They won't have 20 years of DHT exposure. I see no reason to assume the immune system would eat the new follicles alive like androgen-wrecked ones as soon as it gets back online. No more than it was eating the original follicles before the DHT got to them, and no more that it's currently eating you donor wreath follicles right now.
The immune response attack is PROPORTIONAL to the amount of androgen damage in the follicle, remember? It's not just an on/off thing. You've always had a raging-poweful immune system, but it was only partially miniaturizing certain follicles for years in your teens, remember?
If you time-traveled and transplanted one of your current (balded) follicles onto your head back 10 years ago, then think of what would happen: Your 1998 self's immune system would still immeidately attack the 2008-sourced follicle down to its 2008 level of miniaturization, while leaving the rest of the 1998 follicles much less miniaturized at the time.
Likewise, a no-androgen-exposure follicle sprouted on your head in 2008 would get only a childhood-level immune attack, even though the existing follicles alongside it might still be getting chewed down to nothing because of the long term androgen damage.
So I think as long as we can get a new batch of these goddamn follicles fully formed right in the first place, they shouldn't rely on immune system suppression just for their continued survival.
cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
debris
06.11.2008, 14:02
@ benji
|
Vellus hairs and Donora area hairs equal when transplanted to mice |
my idea is topical antibiotic (doxycycline or penicilin).
Supposedly 2 applications are enough to get the hair growing for 6 months or longer.
Other than that, if its not the DHT (even 100% reduction of DHT wont get your hair back), and if immuno suppresed mice can regrow miniaturized hair, then its either:
- the immune system
- the mice
that make the difference.
IF we consider that there are some ppl who claim that immunosupressives grow your hair back the best,
then I'd conclude its the immune system that makes the difference.
there is something that makes the follicle unloved by your immune system. shut this up and you'll have hair again.
debris has 1 Personal Journal(s). Click here to view
debris is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
cal
07.11.2008, 17:58
@ debris
|
Vellus hairs and Donora area hairs equal when transplanted to mice |
I agree.
I have no doubt that whacking the immune system temporarily should work to regenerate some hairs for us.
The only questions to my mind (and they're big ones) is whether we can controllably get the hair good enough for our purposes, and whether the hairs will remain viable once immune system activity returns to the area.
Anecdotal real world cases and Folica-spoken indications seem to say yes to both issues. My fingers remain firmly crossed.
I think the situation with Folica's impact on pre-existing hairs is still a great big blank page though.
Will Folica make the body fix them? Get rid of them? How does their presence and condition affect the regeneration and qualities of the all-new follicles?
We've been talking about this stuff for a couple of years now when you count people just paying attention to research in general. And I still don't think we've concluded much of anything about this aspect of Folica.
cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
goata007
07.03.2009, 10:06
@ benji
|
Vellus hairs and Donora area hairs equal when transplanted to mice |
very interesting research! Are there anymore studies that back this up?
Why don't the scientists just study balding & non-balding follicles i.e. do a genetic comparison? if the both follicles are from same person, than it should be much easier to identify the key genetic differences between balding & non-balding follicles. And once we have a complete list of genetic differences, it might also be easier to find the real cause and fix it.
goata007 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO ---
"If we knew what it was that we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?" - Albert Einstein |
AJ
07.03.2009, 13:03
@ goata007
|
Vellus hairs and Donora area hairs equal when transplanted to mice |
The genes are identical in balding and non-balding follicles in one person. That's how they use DNA to identify people. If your genes were different throughout the body, they wouldn't be able to use DNA to identify somebody. It's just how the genes are expressed that causes some follicles to bald. That's why they compare genes from different people to try and find genetic causes of diseases (including baldness).
AJ is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
harm2
07.03.2009, 18:12
@ benji
|
Vellus hairs and Donora area hairs equal when transplanted to mice |
» When one really considers the fact that vellus hairs from male pattern bald
» me can grow as well or even better than donor area hair when moved to an
» immuno deficient mouse's back.................it makes me want to chuck all
» studies in mice.
»
»
» Lets see................castrates dont lose anymore hair, so we know that
» male hormone is causing the hair loss.
»
» But castrates only grow back a little of what was recently lost----about
» like guys on dutasteride or finasteride.
»
»
» So what then is keeping our miniaturized hairs small on our own heads. Why
» wont they grow back if you are on finasteride and shampoo with nizoral?
» Does the immune system keep attacking them when they are
» small..........there has got to be a reason for them not- re-enlarging like
» they do on these mice.
»
»
» Anybody got any ideas?
I don't understand one thing: Why do you think that a slick balled head, is actually filled with small hairs? sure when I look at dad's head I see a few small hairs here and there, but if all his hairs were there, only very small, surely i would see them. So is these hypothesis that follicles never die based on any thing?
harm2 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
cal
07.03.2009, 21:12
@ harm2
|
Vellus hairs and Donora area hairs equal when transplanted to mice |
A 'slick bald head" is filled with tiny hairs from the original follicles. This is not a theory, it's a simple fact. Examine your head with a magnifying glass or something powerful enough, and they'll be there.
Balded follicles don't "die." They don't vanish. The follicles would still be there if you took a dead cadaver's bald scalp and dissected it looking for them.
The balded follicles are just effectively shut down by the body. Unplugged. All signs point to the method of shutting them down being an immune system attack that holds them perpetually out of action.
cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
goata007
07.03.2009, 22:42
@ harm2
|
Vellus hairs and Donora area hairs equal when transplanted to mice |
» I don't understand one thing: Why do you think that a slick balled head,
» is actually filled with small hairs? sure when I look at dad's head I see a
» few small hairs here and there, but if all his hairs were there, only very
» small, surely i would see them. So is these hypothesis that follicles
» never die based on any thing?
I went from NW1 - NW6 in about 6 years. If the lightning is right, I can easily see dense vellus hair all over my NW1 area. Those minitaurized follicles would probably stop making even vellus hair in next 5 years or so, that's why I'm interested in saving as many as I can.
goata007 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO ---
"If we knew what it was that we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?" - Albert Einstein |
goata007
07.03.2009, 22:46
@ AJ
|
Vellus hairs and Donora area hairs equal when transplanted to mice |
» The genes are identical in balding and non-balding follicles in one person.
» That's how they use DNA to identify people. If your genes were different
» throughout the body, they wouldn't be able to use DNA to identify somebody.
» It's just how the genes are expressed that causes some follicles to bald.
» That's why they compare genes from different people to try and find genetic
» causes of diseases (including baldness).
I know that DNA is the same all over, I was talking about gene expression, signalling etc in balding vs non-balding follicles. The fact that to this day there is no clear cut answer to why follicles minitaurize means that most of the scientists working on a cure are basically going the band-aid route - instead of actually understanding the problem at the root level.
goata007 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO ---
"If we knew what it was that we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?" - Albert Einstein |
cal
08.03.2009, 04:27
@ goata007
|
Vellus hairs and Donora area hairs equal when transplanted to mice |
»
» I know that DNA is the same all over, I was talking about gene expression,
» signalling etc in balding vs non-balding follicles. The fact that to this
» day there is no clear cut answer to why follicles minitaurize means that
» most of the scientists working on a cure are basically going the band-aid
» route - instead of actually understanding the problem at the root level.
I totally agree. It's infuriating.
The net total amount of money & effort & time dumped into these millions of pathetic MPB products would have probably cracked this sh*t a long time ago. But no, it's all one operation after another doing the same things to get a product onto the market before their shareholders pull the plug on their funding.
It's crazy.
The military could never have invented the Atomic bomb like this. It's like splitting up all the scientists involved in the Manhattan Project into dozens of teams each operating independently, assigning each team one single type of explosive to mess with, and then hoping that one of these teams will make a nuclear explosion work out of it.
cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
harm2
08.03.2009, 19:16
@ cal
|
Vellus hairs and Donora area hairs equal when transplanted to mice |
» A 'slick bald head" is filled with tiny hairs from the original follicles.
» This is not a theory, it's a simple fact. Examine your head with a
» magnifying glass or something powerful enough, and they'll be there.
»
»
»
» Balded follicles don't "die." They don't vanish. The follicles would
» still be there if you took a dead cadaver's bald scalp and dissected it
» looking for them.
»
» The balded follicles are just effectively shut down by the body.
» Unplugged. All signs point to the method of shutting them down being an
» immune system attack that holds them perpetually out of action.
I looked and for every hair my dad had there isn't a small one instead. do you have any proof of this my friend?
Because if what you say is true, then one could do a very interesting thing:
take out all of a balled man's follicles and transplant them into a immunosuppressant mouse, let them grow, and transplant them back into the balled man's head. sure the immune response would surely come again, but in theory he would have a period of time with a full set of hair. I just don't believe that my dad still has he's 100000 follicles he used to.
harm2 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
goata007
08.03.2009, 20:52
@ harm2
|
Vellus hairs and Donora area hairs equal when transplanted to mice |
» I looked and for every hair my dad had there isn't a small one
» instead. do you have any proof of this my friend?
After a while - ie. 10+ years the follicle minitaurize even more and stop producing vellus hair as well. if you had temples for over 10 years now, you can check that for yourself as well.
goata007 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO ---
"If we knew what it was that we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?" - Albert Einstein |
cal
09.03.2009, 04:50
@ goata007
|
Vellus hairs and Donora area hairs equal when transplanted to mice |
Yeah, what Goata007 said.
There's no reason that bald men can't have inactive follicles on their heads. Honestly I'm surprised that this idea has aroused such strong feelings from you.
The whole reason that follicles have proven so goddamn difficult to clone or reactivate is because they're not that straightforward. They're deceptively small and they seem to do a very simple job, but they've actually turned out to be pretty complex little motherf*ckers. Our MPB problem would be a lot easier to fix if follicles were just disposable little things that our skin liked to spit out & replace at will like shark's teeth.
Follicles are really more like a bunch of tiny little organs than they are like a simpler "tissue" that we can throw in a petri dish and grow lots of. (Throw skin cells in a dish and they do multiply. But the new skin cells don't bring any new scalp follicles along with them.)
We can't easily control and replace follicles for the same reasons that we can't control & generate entire kidneys & lungs & hearts. Hence, we've resorted to literally transplanting other follicles if we want to get new hairs anywhere that the original visible hair is lost.
Researchers are just now finding evidence that the body has ability to generate any 100% new follicles after leaving the womb. It's not something that the body wants to do readily. HM is pushing the envelope past what ever normally occurs in the body's aging & healing processes.
cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
goata007
09.03.2009, 07:00
@ cal
|
Vellus hairs and Donora area hairs equal when transplanted to mice |
» Yeah, what Goata007 said.
»
» There's no reason that bald men can't have inactive follicles on their
» heads. Honestly I'm surprised that this idea has aroused such strong
» feelings from you.
Was this last sentence for me? I had heard that follicles don't actually die, they minitaurize. But there is so much info out there, some even by doctors, stating that follicles die few years after minitaurization. This study definitely proves that follicles don't die. Does the study also mention for how long the vellus hair had been minitaurized i.e. if it's less than 2-3 years then the follicle probably still was in pretty good shape. However, if it's well over 5 years then that's really good news for us - especially people like me & baccy.
» Researchers are just now finding evidence that the body has ability to
» generate any 100% new follicles after leaving the womb. It's not something
» that the body wants to do readily. HM is pushing the envelope past what
» ever normally occurs in the body's aging & healing processes.
But wouldn't it be easier if they just find out which signalling from the immune system is actually supressing the follicle and then just make a topical for it. I've never heard of any scientist taking this route. Afterall the above study does proves that the follicle is still there just suppressed, so why not just unleash it's full potential instead of going the hardcore route of creating a new follicle?
NOTE: Can anyone Please upload this full study?
goata007 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO ---
"If we knew what it was that we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?" - Albert Einstein |
cal
09.03.2009, 07:30
@ goata007
|
Vellus hairs and Donora area hairs equal when transplanted to mice |
goata007, I hadn't actually aimed any of that post at you.
As for the issue of regeneration vs reactivation, I basically agree with you. Specifics aside, I think it's crazy for the hair research world to have invested so much effort into cloning follicles when there are live follicles all over our heads still.
It's like a car mechanic saying he doesn't understand what's wrong with your car's engine, so he intends to build you a whole new engine because he thinks that will be easier than fixing it.
cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Sceptic
09.03.2009, 07:59
@ cal
|
Vellus hairs and Donora area hairs equal when transplanted to mice |
» As for the issue of regeneration vs reactivation, I basically agree with
» you. Specifics aside, I think it's crazy for the hair research world to
» have invested so much effort into cloning follicles when there are live
» follicles all over our heads still.
»
» It's like a car mechanic saying he doesn't understand what's wrong with
» your car's engine, so he intends to build you a whole new engine because he
» thinks that will be easier than fixing it.
easier said than done, don't you think ?
Sceptic is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
harm2
09.03.2009, 08:37
@ cal
|
Vellus hairs and Donora area hairs equal when transplanted to mice |
» Yeah, what Goata007 said.
»
» There's no reason that bald men can't have inactive follicles on their
» heads. Honestly I'm surprised that this idea has aroused such strong
» feelings from you.
»
»
»
» The whole reason that follicles have proven so goddamn difficult to clone
» or reactivate is because they're not that straightforward. They're
» deceptively small and they seem to do a very simple job, but they've
» actually turned out to be pretty complex little motherf*ckers. Our MPB
» problem would be a lot easier to fix if follicles were just disposable
» little things that our skin liked to spit out & replace at will like
» shark's teeth.
»
»
» Follicles are really more like a bunch of tiny little organs than they are
» like a simpler "tissue" that we can throw in a petri dish and grow lots of.
» (Throw skin cells in a dish and they do multiply. But the new skin cells
» don't bring any new scalp follicles along with them.)
»
» We can't easily control and replace follicles for the same reasons that we
» can't control & generate entire kidneys & lungs & hearts. Hence, we've
» resorted to literally transplanting other follicles if we want to get new
» hairs anywhere that the original visible hair is lost.
»
» Researchers are just now finding evidence that the body has ability to
» generate any 100% new follicles after leaving the womb. It's not something
» that the body wants to do readily. HM is pushing the envelope past what
» ever normally occurs in the body's aging & healing processes.
My friend, do you have any scientific proof for this fact, or is it just something that you know it true?
And if this is a reality, what about my idea of extracting all the follicles of a bald man and transplanting them in a immunesupprasnt mouse, letting them grow, and putting them back in the bald man's head?
harm2 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
goata007
09.03.2009, 08:42
@ harm2
|
Vellus hairs and Donora area hairs equal when transplanted to mice |
» My friend, do you have any scientific proof for this fact, or is it just
» something that you know it true?
The whole point of this thread is to show scientific evidence that minitaurized follicles are still capable of growing thick hairs. The first post is the proof! not only that, I've also told you about my very own case i.e. dense vellus hair all over NW1 area.
» And if this is a reality, what about my idea of extracting all the
» follicles of a bald man and transplanting them in a immunesupprasnt mouse,
» letting them grow, and putting them back in the bald man's head?
The problem is that those follicles would have mouse blood etc in them, you can't just stick it back into a human head.
goata007 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO ---
"If we knew what it was that we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?" - Albert Einstein |
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