CIT
05.06.2008, 19:52 |
THE OFFICIAL POLL: Is donor density the same after strip harvesting? (Hair Transplant) |
Lets make it official. I vote yes. Does anyone second this vote?  All opinions and comments are very welcome.
Free online consultation form
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benji
05.06.2008, 22:18
@ CIT
|
THE OFFICIAL POLL: Is donor density the same after strip harvesting? |
» Lets make it official. I vote yes. Does anyone second this vote? All
» opinions and comments are very welcome.
»
» Free online consultation
» form
of course not........although if you have alot of fat wrinkles (extra skin a la Michael Jordan) on the back of your head, it might not be too affected after ONE big strip is taken out. The skin has to be stretched back to sew up again, pulling from both the top and beneath it. There is less SCALP period after a strip surgery...............removing donor scalp, not mere hairs.
BTW-------------If the wounding protocol at Follica doesn't work on the head......it still might be able to "make" more body hair for BHT's later on. I wonder if anyone has thought of that? Follica is one more reason to peruse a FUE over strip at this point also. More hair can be "made" in the best donor-area scalp only if it is STILL THERE.
|
HanginInThere
07.06.2008, 06:45
@ CIT
|
the density decreases |
» Lets make it official. I vote yes. Does anyone second this vote? All
» opinions and comments are very welcome.
»
» Free online consultation
» form
it is physically impossible for the answer to be yes
lets take a balloon for example, the balloon is your skull
lets start with 100k hairs in the shape of a typical mans hairline
lets go in, and theoretically remove 30,000 hairs through strip......this may not be possible but it is just for example purposes
no matter how you rearrange the hair, on the balloon, ...skull.........the surface area of the skull remains the same............and now you have only 70k hairs on the same surface area
there is no way physically possible to even remove 10 percent of the hair without there being a decrease in density on the scalp
---
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nwone
07.06.2008, 09:47
(edited by nwone, 07.06.2008, 09:53)
@ HanginInThere
|
the density decreases |
It's surely decreased if even the scalpel makes one incision in t he area. As previously stated, its like a scalp reduction on the back of the head. Hello!
|
HanginInThere
07.06.2008, 10:32
@ CIT
|
do you tell this to your patients |
» Lets make it official. I vote yes. Does anyone second this vote? All
» opinions and comments are very welcome.
»
» Free online consultation
» form
you are serious you are a transplant clinic and u believe the density remains the same? do you tell this to your patients?
if so , this is called fraud
---
Hangin Regimen...........
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bverotti
Belgium,
07.06.2008, 14:01
@ CIT
|
donor density is never the same after FUT or FUE |
Mathematically you can not take something wihout changing something.
However to the eye it might still look the same, our eyes can be fooled easily (and that the ultimate goals during an HT)
With FUE and small instruments it is possible to remove 2000 or 3000 grafts and the casual observer will NOT find any evidence. Give him a magnifying glass and he will find traces of FUE however
Same with donor stretching after FUT. The normal in the street guy wont be able to detect it, but it is definately happening.
I guess there are thresholds that can be approached for both FUE and strip ... going past a certain limit will cause visible thinning however. And as it is often the case in HT, variables are very patient depending.
---
Consultant for Prohairclinic Belgium http://www.prohairclinic.com/default.asp?language=en
FUE only institute since 2004
Specialized in FUE megasessions |
therapy
07.06.2008, 14:26
@ CIT
|
THE OFFICIAL POLL: Is donor density the same after strip harvesting? |
I think it is possible in theory.
|
HanginInThere
07.06.2008, 19:34
@ therapy
|
THE OFFICIAL POLL: Is donor density the same after strip harvesting? |
» I think it is possible in theory.
no it is impossible even in theory
the surface area remains the same and the amount of hair on that surface area....the donor site...........decreases............thus it is impossible for the density to remain the same
please explain how it is possible even in theory, for the density to remain the same
---
Hangin Regimen...........
Maxi Hair by Country Life 2/day
Kal Amino Max ..Chelated Multi Mineral..2/day
DHT blockers (daily intake)
Saw Palmetto, 320mg Standardized
Pygeum 500mg
Nettles 500mg
Beta Sitosterol 125mg
2% Nizoral Cream Topically Nightly,,,after Shampoo |
cal
07.06.2008, 19:59
@ HanginInThere
|
THE OFFICIAL POLL: Is donor density the same after strip harvesting? |
Hangin is right.
The total number of grafts on your head didn't get bigger, and your skull didn't get smaller. But after the surgery, there are a greater number of grafts in the recipient area.
Something had to give.
The scalp is being stretched over your whole head a little tighter. That means the hair in the donor area is being slightly thinned out when the smoke clears.
And the back of the neck's hairline & the forehead hairline are probably being pulled a little bit closer together too. But this is not a free-lunch gain. In terms of your neck hairline moving upwards in back, you also could have just raided that area with FUE too for the same results. And as for your forehead skin moving backwards, well, that's just enlarging the bald recipient area that you have to cover with HTs later!
HTs don't create new hair, they don't shrink the skull, and they increase the total area that the existing hairs are expected to cover. Simple mathematics demands a decrease in density.
|
readyfreddy
07.06.2008, 20:54
@ cal
|
THE OFFICIAL POLL: Is donor density the same after strip harvesting? |
» Hangin is right.
»
» The total number of grafts on your head didn't get bigger, and your skull
» didn't get smaller. But after the surgery, there are a greater number of
» grafts in the recipient area.
»
» Something had to give.
»
»
»
» The scalp is being stretched over your whole head a little tighter. That
» means the hair in the donor area is being slightly thinned out when the
» smoke clears.
»
» And the back of the neck's hairline & the forehead hairline are probably
» being pulled a little bit closer together too. But this is not a
» free-lunch gain. In terms of your neck hairline moving upwards in back,
» you also could have just raided that area with FUE too for the same
» results. And as for your forehead skin moving backwards, well, that's just
» enlarging the bald recipient area that you have to cover with HTs later!
»
»
» HTs don't create new hair, they don't shrink the skull, and they increase
» the total area that the existing hairs are expected to cover. Simple
» mathematics demands a decrease in density.
Even CIT voted yes, obviously it is a loaded question in order to promote Cole's fue.
No doubt about it, the density can be the same after strip. Most virgin scalps have enough laxity in the scalp, the loss in density (if any) will be minimal when the strip scar is sutured up. There is no excess skin left behind. No loss in density.
|
HanginInThere
07.06.2008, 21:14
(edited by HanginInThere, 07.06.2008, 21:24)
@ readyfreddy
|
pure BS |
you actually believe yourself , it appears
how do you propose............if density.............equals hairs per sq cm of scalp...............to account for the hairs that were removed, in the density equation
remove 3000 hairs .......doesnt matter how much laxity the scalp has. it could be like an uninflated beach ball, doesnt matter.................remove 3000 hairs..............new density
is equal to old number of hairs minus 3000 divided by the same sq cm of skull area or scalp area
your math is fantasy land
the only way for the density to remain the same.........is..............
for the amount of hairs on that scalp area to not change
this can be accomplished by only two choices
1..there was no hair removed
2. the scalp area..........if there was hair removed...........decreases accordingly................I am not talking about the skin on the scalp. I am talking about the sq cm of skull that the donor hair sits on
there is also a third option
3. the sides of the sutures are sewn together the density of the hair in the donor area remains the same.............that is , the hair inside the confines of the hairline......................and then the hairline above the neck , etc RISES, an equal amount to the amount of the strip cut out. in other words, cut out a one inch strip. the neckline hairline rises one inch
now this last option, truly is not even possible well it is, but it would look ridiculous, and the hair density in the skull area , donor area would stil have decreased dramatically..............since you have basically re arranged the hair in that area totally. but
I guess if you are convinced you are correct, you wont let facts get in the way, much less logic
---
Hangin Regimen...........
Maxi Hair by Country Life 2/day
Kal Amino Max ..Chelated Multi Mineral..2/day
DHT blockers (daily intake)
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Nettles 500mg
Beta Sitosterol 125mg
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cal
08.06.2008, 01:26
@ HanginInThere
|
pure BS |
We can debate whether the real-world impact of the density loss from srip HTs is noticeable. Some say it is, some say it isn't. Depends on a lot of things.
But there can be no debate about whether some loss must technically occur with each strip HT or not. It must. Cannot get something for nothing.
|
HanginInThere
08.06.2008, 01:34
@ cal
|
pure BS |
» We can debate whether the real-world impact of the density loss from srip
» HTs is noticeable. Some say it is, some say it isn't. Depends on a lot of
» things.
»
» But there can be no debate about whether some loss must technically occur
» with each strip HT or not. It must. Cannot get something for nothing.
i agree that many times it may not be noticeable, and this is logical since they say you start to noticeably see thinning, with a loss of 50 percent.......but the guys who say there is no density loss, are nuts
---
Hangin Regimen...........
Maxi Hair by Country Life 2/day
Kal Amino Max ..Chelated Multi Mineral..2/day
DHT blockers (daily intake)
Saw Palmetto, 320mg Standardized
Pygeum 500mg
Nettles 500mg
Beta Sitosterol 125mg
2% Nizoral Cream Topically Nightly,,,after Shampoo |
CIT
08.06.2008, 04:54
@ CIT
|
THE OFFICIAL POLL: donor density is DECREASED |
» Lets make it official. I vote NO!. Does anyone second this vote? All
» opinions and comments are very welcome.
»
» Free online consultation
» form
Sorry that was mistyped
---
Toll Free: 800 368 4247
USA: 1 (678) 566-1011
Email: consults@forhair.com
www.forhair.com |
nwone
08.06.2008, 14:35
@ CIT
|
THE OFFICIAL POLL: donor density is DECREASED |
» » Lets make it official. I vote NO!. Does anyone second this vote?
» All
» » opinions and comments are very welcome.
» »
» » Free online consultation
» » form
»
» Sorry that was mistyped
That's more like it. You can't take away and not expect density to be decreased. I thought density on different areas of the donor region varies anyways.
|
baldbaby
08.06.2008, 22:35
@ CIT
|
THE OFFICIAL POLL: Is donor density the same after strip harvesting? |
» Lets make it official. I vote yes. Does anyone second this vote? All
» opinions and comments are very welcome.
I think the question isn't clear for those who haven't had ht.
Do you mean that some people are complaining that overall density of the hair in the donor area actually goes DOWN after the strip is removed?
Wouldn't this mean that there is some additional hairloss in the donor area, like shock fallout, or a longer term thinning?
Have people observed this?
|
HanginInThere
08.06.2008, 22:39
@ baldbaby
|
THE OFFICIAL POLL: Is donor density the same after strip harvesting? |
» » Lets make it official. I vote yes. Does anyone second this vote?
» All
» » opinions and comments are very welcome.
»
» I think the question isn't clear for those who haven't had ht.
»
» Do you mean that some people are complaining that overall density of the
» hair in the donor area actually goes DOWN after the strip is removed?
»
» Wouldn't this mean that there is some additional hairloss in the donor
» area, like shock fallout, or a longer term thinning?
»
» Have people observed this?
the density goes down , because the skin is stretched after the strip is removed
---
Hangin Regimen...........
Maxi Hair by Country Life 2/day
Kal Amino Max ..Chelated Multi Mineral..2/day
DHT blockers (daily intake)
Saw Palmetto, 320mg Standardized
Pygeum 500mg
Nettles 500mg
Beta Sitosterol 125mg
2% Nizoral Cream Topically Nightly,,,after Shampoo |
readyfreddy
09.06.2008, 00:00
@ HanginInThere
|
pure BS |
» you actually believe yourself , it appears
»
» how do you propose............if density.............equals hairs per sq
» cm of scalp...............to account for the hairs that were removed, in
» the density equation
»
» remove 3000 hairs .......doesnt matter how much laxity the scalp has. it
» could be like an uninflated beach ball, doesnt
» matter.................remove 3000 hairs..............new density
»
» is equal to old number of hairs minus 3000 divided by the same sq cm of
» skull area or scalp area
»
» your math is fantasy land
»
» the only way for the density to remain the same.........is..............
»
» for the amount of hairs on that scalp area to not change
» this can be accomplished by only two choices
»
» 1..there was no hair removed
» 2. the scalp area..........if there was hair removed...........decreases
» accordingly................I am not talking about the skin on the scalp. I
» am talking about the sq cm of skull that the donor hair sits on
»
» there is also a third option
»
» 3. the sides of the sutures are sewn together the density of the hair in
» the donor area remains the same.............that is , the hair inside the
» confines of the hairline......................and then the hairline above
» the neck , etc RISES, an equal amount to the amount of the strip cut out.
» in other words, cut out a one inch strip. the neckline hairline rises one
» inch
»
» now this last option, truly is not even possible well it is, but it would
» look ridiculous, and the hair density in the skull area , donor area would
» stil have decreased dramatically..............since you have basically re
» arranged the hair in that area totally. but
»
» I guess if you are convinced you are correct, you wont let facts get in
» the way, much less logic
I wouldn't even bother reading your entire post cause you have no clue. Let me make this plain and simple. You take away some grafts and at the same time you remove the skin. It a zero sum game, no loss in density, as simple as that. It's not the same with fue. Fue doctors remove the grafts but they do not remove the skin so the density is lower over the same surface area.
|
HanginInThere
09.06.2008, 02:16
(edited by HanginInThere, 09.06.2008, 02:28)
@ readyfreddy
|
apparently you are outnumbered |
ever wonder why even the transplant clinics say the density decreases? and it is to their advantage to believe otherwise................sure doesnt help them get patients. But I guess the transplant docs are clueless in this instance right>
hey as long as you agree with yourself nothing else matters
---
Hangin Regimen...........
Maxi Hair by Country Life 2/day
Kal Amino Max ..Chelated Multi Mineral..2/day
DHT blockers (daily intake)
Saw Palmetto, 320mg Standardized
Pygeum 500mg
Nettles 500mg
Beta Sitosterol 125mg
2% Nizoral Cream Topically Nightly,,,after Shampoo |
CIT
09.06.2008, 09:15
@ HanginInThere
|
" I vote that density is decreased after any harvesting" |
» ever wonder why even the transplant clinics say the density decreases? and
» it is to their advantage to believe otherwise................sure doesnt
» help them get patients. But I guess the transplant docs are clueless in
» this instance right>
»
» hey as long as you agree with yourself nothing else matters
Sorry for the previous confusing mistyping.
Any time you decrease the area of any donor or recipient area then you will decrease the density of that area. Many patients have different densities from one specific area of the donor area to another.
After a strip is harvested, the angles of the hair may even be skewed because of the differences of the varying desities above and below the site of extraction as well as the directions of hair growth.
---
Toll Free: 800 368 4247
USA: 1 (678) 566-1011
Email: consults@forhair.com
www.forhair.com |
CIT
09.06.2008, 17:26
@ baldbaby
|
Density = Follicular units/donor Area |
» » Lets make it official. I vote yes. Does anyone second this vote?
» All
» » opinions and comments are very welcome.
»
» I think the question isn't clear for those who haven't had ht.
»
» Do you mean that some people are complaining that overall density of the
» hair in the donor area actually goes DOWN after the strip is removed?
»
» Wouldn't this mean that there is some additional hairloss in the donor
» area, like shock fallout, or a longer term thinning?
»
» Have people observed this?
Hi,
This effect of decreased density is a direct result from the Strip(FUT) procedure. A percentage of hair is destroyed at the moment the doctor makes the incisions to remove the strip. Hundreds to thousands of hairs can be inside of the strip.
Strip is a procedure and can also be referred to as a wedge of skin from the scalp.
Please remember, Density = Follicular units/donor Area, therefore density decreases if any donor area decreases.
---
Toll Free: 800 368 4247
USA: 1 (678) 566-1011
Email: consults@forhair.com
www.forhair.com |
bigmac
09.06.2008, 18:31
@ CIT
|
Density = Follicular units/donor Area |
»
» This effect of decreased density is a direct result from the Strip(FUT)
» procedure. A percentage of hair is destroyed at the moment the doctor
» makes the incisions to remove the strip. Hundreds to thousands of hairs
» can be inside of the strip.
»
» Strip is a procedure and can also be referred to as a wedge of skin from
» the scalp.
»
» Please remember, Density = Follicular units/donor Area, therefore density
» decreases if any donor area decreases.
Sorry CIT but you need to get your facts right before you post.Its quite obvious that you dont know how far FUT has progressed as well as FUE.
Please watch this video and learn something.
http://picasaweb.google.com/BobHaber2/HaberSpreader/photo?authkey=IzMfSCmz8uc#5202585668893214434
|
CIT
09.06.2008, 19:40
@ bigmac
|
Is a blade capable of making an incision in your donor without destroying an FU? |
» » Please remember, Density = Follicular units/donor Area, therefore
» density
» » decreases if any donor area decreases.
»
» Sorry CIT but you need to get your facts right before you post.Its quite
» obvious that you dont know how far FUT has progressed as well as FUE.
»
» Please watch this video and learn something.
»
» http://picasaweb.google.com/BobHaber2/HaberSpreader/phot?authkey=IzMfSCmz8uc#5202585668893214434
Good evening bigmac,
You may need to heed your advice. FUT will always involve decreasing the area of the donor area and FUE will always decrease donor density.
FUT will decrease the donor area to make it seem that density is the same at the site of extraction. With strip, the total area of the "safe zone" is decreased. Even with the best "trico closure" result, you may see a very small decrease in donor density but the donor area still remains smaller after the strip of tissue is taken.
FUE will decrease the donor density and will not necessarily decrease the area of the donor area. This is due to the shallow incisions involved with FUE.
Very interesting video but if fails to show the actual strip under magnification. Remember many patients will have a hair density of 200 to 170, and it would be virtually impossible to cut a linear incision in between each of these hairs without destroying a small percentage. Hair grows in many directions and the quantity of hairs on the donor would prevent a double bladed scalpel from destroying at least one follicular unit.
You are welcome to share actual evidence or published data to prove your view to be consistent with the truth. Please refer to the link below for visual aide displaying how density is affected as area is decreased.
Visual aide of decreased density as area decreases
My advice is not medical advice
---
Toll Free: 800 368 4247
USA: 1 (678) 566-1011
Email: consults@forhair.com
www.forhair.com |
HanginInThere
09.06.2008, 23:11
@ CIT
|
Is a blade capable of making an incision in your donor without destroying an FU? |
there are a lot of headstrong, tunnel vision guys on here who are SURE that density is unaffected by strip procedures
logic and evidence will not persuade them
their "science" is the type on the la la land channel...............they cannot dispute logical arguments so they invent their own new brand of dreamland science
---
Hangin Regimen...........
Maxi Hair by Country Life 2/day
Kal Amino Max ..Chelated Multi Mineral..2/day
DHT blockers (daily intake)
Saw Palmetto, 320mg Standardized
Pygeum 500mg
Nettles 500mg
Beta Sitosterol 125mg
2% Nizoral Cream Topically Nightly,,,after Shampoo |
bigmac
10.06.2008, 03:01
@ HanginInThere
|
Is a blade capable of making an incision in your donor without destroying an FU? |
» there are a lot of headstrong, tunnel vision guys on here who are SURE that
» density is unaffected by strip procedures
»
» logic and evidence will not persuade them
»
» their "science" is the type on the la la land channel...............they
» cannot dispute logical arguments so they invent their own new brand of
» dreamland science
Wow Hanging in there,i`m not saying density is not decreased.
I`ll be checking a few facts out and posting as i dont want to post inaccurate statements about fue.
|
bigmac
10.06.2008, 03:15
@ CIT
|
Is a blade capable of making an incision in your donor without destroying an FU? |
»
» Good evening bigmac,
»
» You may need to heed your advice. FUT will always involve decreasing the
» area of the donor area and FUE will always decrease donor density.
»
» FUT will decrease the donor area to make it seem that density is the same
» at the site of extraction. With strip, the total area of the "safe zone"
» is decreased. Even with the best "trico closure" result, you may see a
» very small decrease in donor density but the donor area still remains
» smaller after the strip of tissue is taken.
»
»
» FUE will decrease the donor density and will not necessarily decrease the
» area of the donor area. This is due to the shallow incisions involved with
» FUE.
»
»
»
» Very interesting video but if fails to show the actual strip under
» magnification. Remember many patients will have a hair density of 200 to
» 170, and it would be virtually impossible to cut a linear incision in
» between each of these hairs without destroying a small percentage. Hair
» grows in many directions and the quantity of hairs on the donor would
» prevent a double bladed scalpel from destroying at least one follicular
» unit.
»
»
»
» You are welcome to share actual evidence or published data to prove your
» view to be consistent with the truth. Please refer to the link below for
» visual aide displaying how density is affected as area is decreased.
»
Hi CIT
Hope you are well
I will see what i can do to show the strip under magnification as i will have to search about for it.
In the meantime here is something for you.
The fact of the matter is that FUE/CIT also has a level of transections that cannot be accounted for. Peripheral transections that occur in the donor area while the extractions are being performed is never accounted for nor is it ever brought up. Yes you can account for transections of FUE of the grafts that you extract and look under a microscope but YOU CANNOT account for the transections that DO occur within the donor area.
I have read of a single study that tried to account for peripheral transections a.k.a. "The Halo Effect". And the study said that as the punch size increased, the peripheral transections occurred more. So taking the two transection probabilities into account: The transections you can count under a microscope and the transections that are occurring in the donor are while the extractions are being performed, who knows what the actual transection rate is for FUE. No one ever knows for sure and you certainly have not addressed this."
I do enjoy a good debate with you and trust you will answer the above.
Cheers Bigmac.
|
scarred1
10.06.2008, 04:02
(edited by scarred1, 10.06.2008, 04:28)
@ HanginInThere
|
THE OFFICIAL POLL: Is donor density the same after strip harvesting? |
I can actually visualize two scenarios:
1. That the scalp is equally stretched over the entire donor area during a strip excision, similar to the balloon analogy, decreasing density per sq cm of hair bearing tissue. This assumes that there is NO excess scalp.
2. Secondly, that the scalp is not analogous to a balloon. Consider that the scalp may have excess hair bearing skin. visualize a piece of leather with 100,000 hairs that is 5% larger than the skull it covers. A wrinkle if you will. Remove the wrinkle without putting excess tension on the remaining leather. The skull size hasn't changed, and the leather hasn't stretched. Do you have less total hair? yes? Do you? Isn't the removed strip harvested and the hair re-planted? So now you have less leather and the same amount of hair....I digress, let's keep it simple and get back to my second scenario.
Has the effective donor density decreased? Hmmm. Let's do the math. Let's say the leather is 1000 sq centimeters. 100,000/1000= 100 hairs/sq centimeter. Now, remove the excess 5% of hair bearing leather. 1000-5%=950 sq centimeters. Let's assume the original density remained constant through out the sample. So we removed 5% of the hair as well. 100,000 hairs less 5% is 95,000 divided by the remaining 950 sq. centimeters of leather. Wouldn't that leave density at 100/sq centimeter?
Let's review
100,000/1000=100
95,000/950=100
(remember you still have 100,00 hairs-less any transection. But I wanted to keep the math simple for you mathematicians out there. Now what are you going to do when I tell you your overall density actually INCREASED )
|
HanginInThere
10.06.2008, 06:54
@ scarred1
|
lets compare it to a football field |
equate the area on your skull..................that is the area with hair covering it............to a foot ball field
the field size does not change
you go in and remove 10 sq feet of grass..............the area left is just dirt
the density of the grass on the area that does not include the dirt...........is unchanged
however the area where the grass has been removed................lets equate this to the area in a strip, where the strip has been removed.............that area...is still part of the square feet of the football field...........and it now has NO GRASS
lets say you could somehow magically stretch or stich the ends of the other grass field area together to cover up the area where the grass was removed..........fine......................are you still missing the equivalent of 10 square feet of grass on the football field....................yes there is no way you can deny this....................
there is 10 sq feet of grass............less..........grass........on the field than there was before.........no matter how you rearrange the grass......the field size remains the same, the 10 sq feet of grass is not there anymore
so how can the density be the same? its impossible
---
Hangin Regimen...........
Maxi Hair by Country Life 2/day
Kal Amino Max ..Chelated Multi Mineral..2/day
DHT blockers (daily intake)
Saw Palmetto, 320mg Standardized
Pygeum 500mg
Nettles 500mg
Beta Sitosterol 125mg
2% Nizoral Cream Topically Nightly,,,after Shampoo |
bigmac
10.06.2008, 16:44
@ HanginInThere
|
lets compare it to a football field |
Yes but if the football pitch had an uneven surface with a mound of earth running its length which was covered in grass.Take this mound out and the sides will fold down and meet perfectly and the excess is then redistributed.
No stretching at all
|
scarred1
10.06.2008, 19:32
@ HanginInThere
|
lets compare it to a football field |
» equate the area on your skull..................that is the area with hair
» covering it............to a foot ball field
»
» the field size does not change
»
» you go in and remove 10 sq feet of grass..............the area left is
» just dirt
»
» the density of the grass on the area that does not include the
» dirt...........is unchanged
»
» however the area where the grass has been removed................lets
» equate this to the area in a strip, where the strip has been
» removed.............that area...is still part of the square feet of the
» football field...........and it now has NO GRASS
»
» lets say you could somehow magically stretch or stich the ends of the
» other grass field area together to cover up the area where the grass was
» removed..........fine......................are you still missing the
» equivalent of 10 square feet of grass on the football
» field....................yes there is no way you can deny
» this....................
»
» there is 10 sq feet of grass............less..........grass........on the
» field than there was before.........no matter how you rearrange the
» grass......the field size remains the same, the 10 sq feet of grass is not
» there anymore
»
» so how can the density be the same? its impossible
O.K. ...Let's use your analogy.
But you must first assume that there is sufficient laxity in the turf to allow removal of the strip of grass, without creating so much tension that the turf will stretch. (or scar). In essence, excess turf.
So now the strip of grass has been removed, without tension or stretching. The now, flatter field is taut. but virtually the same size.
But guess what? you still have the grass from the section that was removed. It gets re-planted into the areas that needed fertilizer.. It wasn't disgarded, only the sod was. Now you have a greener, fuller, field of grass.
|
jotronic
10.06.2008, 20:00
@ bigmac
|
Is a blade capable of making an incision in your donor without destroying an FU? |
Hey guys, not really interested in getting into your strip bashing discussion BUT ...
Regarding your formula... "Density = Follicular units/donor Area"
Density is inversely proportional to donor area, thus a decrease in donor area will cause an INCREASE in density (although this is not exactly what occurs in strip). Grade 1 Math, CIT.
Please continue your strip bashing
---
Joe Tillman
aka, Jotronic
Hasson & Wong
www.hassonandwong.com
www.hairtransplanttv.com
Joe@HassonandWong.com
1.800.859.2266
The Truth Is In The Results
7917 FU Grafts |
CIT
10.06.2008, 20:36
@ jotronic
|
Let's make an incision in your donor without destroying an FU? |
» Hey guys, not really interested in getting into your strip bashing
» discussion BUT ...
»
» Regarding your formula... "Density = Follicular units/donor Area"
»
»
»
»
» Density is inversely proportional to donor area, thus a decrease in donor
» area will cause an INCREASE in density (although this is not exactly what
» occurs in strip). Grade 1 Math, CIT.
»
» Please continue your strip bashing
Jotronic,
Of course if you repeat the same previously stated formula then you will have made an accurate comment. What exactly occurs is that the number of hairs in the donor area decreases along with decreasing area.
I am clearly stating that the density in the surrounding few centimeters where the strip was taken is less dense than the rest of the donor area that isn't affected by the strip procedure. The blade also transects hairs, period.
---
Toll Free: 800 368 4247
USA: 1 (678) 566-1011
Email: consults@forhair.com
www.forhair.com |
benji
10.06.2008, 22:48
@ jotronic
|
Strip is a DONOR AREA SCALP REDUCTION |
» Hey guys, not really interested in getting into your strip bashing
» discussion BUT ...
»
» Regarding your formula... "Density = Follicular units/donor Area"
»
»
»
»
» Density is inversely proportional to donor area, thus a decrease in donor
» area will cause an INCREASE in density (although this is not exactly what
» occurs in strip). Grade 1 Math, CIT.
»
» Please continue your strip bashing
A strip is basically a donor area scalp reduction. The "donor area" (wreath) is SMALLER PERIOD after the surgery. The density might only be slightly less due to stretching, but the nape of the neck is being pulled up towards the back of the head and the top of the scalp is being somewhat streched downwards.
Men who have alot of rolls of extra scalp on the back of their heads/upper necks are much better strip candidates than other men because there is some extra skin there that can be pulled out.
|
bigmac
11.06.2008, 15:18
@ bigmac
|
Is a blade capable of making an incision in your donor without destroying an FU? |
» »
» » Very interesting video but if fails to show the actual strip under
» » magnification. Remember many patients will have a hair density of 200
» to
» » 170, and it would be virtually impossible to cut a linear incision in
» » between each of these hairs without destroying a small percentage.
» Hair
» » grows in many directions and the quantity of hairs on the donor would
» » prevent a double bladed scalpel from destroying at least one follicular
» » unit.
» »
» »
» »
» » You are welcome to share actual evidence or published data to prove
» your
» » view to be consistent with the truth. Please refer to the link below
» for
» » visual aide displaying how density is affected as area is decreased.
» »
» Hi CIT
»
» Hope you are well
»
» I will see what i can do to show the strip under magnification as i will
» have to search about for it.
» In the meantime here is something for you.
»
» The fact of the matter is that FUE/CIT also has a level of transections
» that cannot be accounted for. Peripheral transections that occur in the
» donor area while the extractions are being performed is never accounted for
» nor is it ever brought up. Yes you can account for transections of FUE of
» the grafts that you extract and look under a microscope but YOU CANNOT
» account for the transections that DO occur within the donor area.
»
» I have read of a single study that tried to account for peripheral
» transections a.k.a. "The Halo Effect". And the study said that as the punch
» size increased, the peripheral transections occurred more. So taking the
» two transection probabilities into account: The transections you can count
» under a microscope and the transections that are occurring in the donor are
» while the extractions are being performed, who knows what the actual
» transection rate is for FUE. No one ever knows for sure and you certainly
» have not addressed this."
»
» I do enjoy a good debate with you and trust you will answer the above.
»
» Cheers Bigmac.
Well CIT are you going to answer my question above about transection rates from fue.
Also if you watch the whole video you will notice how the blade only cuts to a certain depth and not right down to the bulb.Obviously if there is a bulb that is closer to the surface it can be damaged but a couple damaged is a very good result.
Here is the video again to watch.
http://picasaweb.google.com/BobHaber2/HaberSpreader/photo?authkey=IzMfSCmz8uc#5202585668893214434
Now again will you answer my questions as i`m very interested in your opinion on transection rates with fue/cit and if you could explain how your punches minimalise transections.
Please answer as i`ve answered you.
|
Jtelecom
11.06.2008, 17:46
@ bigmac
|
Is a blade capable of making an incision in your donor without destroying an FU? |
This is a very simple concept, bigmac. If one were to draw a straight line anywhere on the scalp, the chances of hitting a follicle or follicular unit are 100%. If one were to take, say, a .75 mm punch and pick and choose follicular units or follicles for removal, the chances of "hitting" surrounding follicles are quite minimal (maybe 5%, or so). So, mathematically speaking, the chances of damaging nearby follicles in a strip procedure are astronomical, whereas that chances of damaging follicles via FUE are really quite minimal, if not nonexistent.
Please explain the baloney about not going to the depth of the bulb. If that were the case, how in the world would the strip bearing the FU's be viable?
---
Jtelecom
5 Strip Surgeries (4 Bosley, 1 AlviArmani)
3 FUE Surgeries (2 Undisclosed, 1 AlviArmani)
(Latest FUE Surgery: June 6, 2008 - AlviArmani Los Angeles) |
mwinston
11.06.2008, 18:11
@ bigmac
|
War on HT method |
» » »
» » » Very interesting video but if fails to show the actual strip under
» » » magnification. Remember many patients will have a hair density of
» 200
» » to
» » » 170, and it would be virtually impossible to cut a linear incision in
» » » between each of these hairs without destroying a small percentage.
» » Hair
» » » grows in many directions and the quantity of hairs on the donor would
» » » prevent a double bladed scalpel from destroying at least one
» follicular
» » » unit.
» » »
» » »
» » »
» » » You are welcome to share actual evidence or published data to prove
» » your
» » » view to be consistent with the truth. Please refer to the link below
» » for
» » » visual aide displaying how density is affected as area is decreased.
» » »
» » Hi CIT
» »
» » Hope you are well
» »
» » I will see what i can do to show the strip under magnification as i
» will
» » have to search about for it.
» » In the meantime here is something for you.
» »
» » The fact of the matter is that FUE/CIT also has a level of transections
» » that cannot be accounted for. Peripheral transections that occur in the
» » donor area while the extractions are being performed is never accounted
» for
» » nor is it ever brought up. Yes you can account for transections of FUE
» of
» » the grafts that you extract and look under a microscope but YOU CANNOT
» » account for the transections that DO occur within the donor area.
» »
» » I have read of a single study that tried to account for peripheral
» » transections a.k.a. "The Halo Effect". And the study said that as the
» punch
» » size increased, the peripheral transections occurred more. So taking
» the
» » two transection probabilities into account: The transections you can
» count
» » under a microscope and the transections that are occurring in the donor
» are
» » while the extractions are being performed, who knows what the actual
» » transection rate is for FUE. No one ever knows for sure and you
» certainly
» » have not addressed this."
» »
» » I do enjoy a good debate with you and trust you will answer the above.
» »
» » Cheers Bigmac.
»
» Well CIT are you going to answer my question above about transection rates
» from fue.
» Also if you watch the whole video you will notice how the blade only cuts
» to a certain depth and not right down to the bulb.Obviously if there is a
» bulb that is closer to the surface it can be damaged but a couple damaged
» is a very good result.
» Here is the video again to watch.
» http://picasaweb.google.com/BobHaber2/HaberSpreader/photo?authkey=IzMfSCmz8uc#5202585668893214434
»
» Now again will you answer my questions as i`m very interested in your
» opinion on transection rates with fue/cit and if you could explain how your
» punches minimalise transections.
»
» Please answer as i`ve answered you.
Dude,
Popular belief states that strip surgeons should go below the bulb to take some fatty tissue and avoid damaging the strip. I think that the scalpels would transect more than "two" FUs. You may want to check your bologna before you post. That's Oscar Meyer!
CIT, and the other members have a good point to share.
|
bigmac
12.06.2008, 02:53
@ mwinston
|
War on HT method |
Dear all,
I am glad you have great input into this debate. Your input is valuable, however CIT's answers to my direct and very specific questions are needed here. CIT????"
|
CIT
12.06.2008, 19:38
@ bigmac
|
Documentation |
» Dear all,
»
» I am glad you have great input into this debate. Your input is valuable,
» however CIT's answers to my direct and very specific questions are needed
» here. CIT????"
bigmac,
Our transection rate in currently from 2% to 3% on any given day. Any transection is properly documented and the donor area are examined as FU distribution varies on each patient. Each FUE clinic must represent itself and properly document it's own data. Every graft is extracted under high magnification and placed under magnification.
This is not to mention that there may be clinic who don't document the surgery.
Innovation, experience, surgeons' insight and devices specifically designed for each hair restoration patients' donor enable preservation of the donor area.
---
Toll Free: 800 368 4247
USA: 1 (678) 566-1011
Email: consults@forhair.com
www.forhair.com |
bigmac
13.06.2008, 05:25
@ CIT
|
Documentation |
"CIT,
First let me thank you for answering half of the questions asked. However you left out the most important part of the question that no one wishes to answer or address. I do understand that each and every graft must be checked in order to confirm the transections acquired upon extraction as well as to count the numbers per graft. Most clinics that perform FUE have adopted this documentation but what intrigues me more is the fact that sometimes follicular units in the donor area can be damaged by the punch DURING the extraction process. While it might not be a regular occurance, it is more evident in higher density patients that have higher numbers of hairs per graft and a density that is normal to high (very tightly packed follicular units) . The study that I read and quoted in the previous post (from a sponsored clinic on this site), stated that given these conditions, PERIPHERAL TRANSECTIONS IN THE DONOR AREA ARE INEVITABLE, AND INCREASING PUNCH SIZE WILL INCREASE THE PERIPHERAL TRANSECTIONS AKA "THE HALO EFFECT".
So I ask you once more. How do you account for peripheral transections? Or is this just something that is over looked... which would then even the playing field of the strip vs. FUE transection accountability given perfect conditions for both procedures? In other words... Transection rates for both procedures are virtually similar (3%-10%) taken into account advancements in both procedures and knowing full well that peripheral transections during FUE are real and unaccounted for.
The second part of this debate is really easy when speaking about the strip excision and density changes. I asked the opinion of a well known and accomplished strip surgeon what he thought happened to the density in the donor area when you excise a strip and FUE. It is simple. The OVERALL DENSITY DECREASES... Dah! If you started out with 100 follicular units overall, then take a 25% strip out of the middle, then, what happens?
1. The overall density decreases by 25% However the density decrease occurs in one area and after the suture of the upper and lower strip, the density decrease is virtually unnoticed... at first... then...
2. Healing begins and some stretch back can occur, which can potentially pull folicular units apart from one another... ONLY near the strip line. though.
3. The area right at the strip suture line. If all conditions are perfect, i.e. virgin scalp, good closure, patient follows post op instructions, resulting in a pencil line scar, the decrease in density AROUND THE SCAR (during stretch back) WILL BE LESS THAN 5% WHICH WILL BE NEGLIGIBLE TO THE NAKED EYE. Everywhere else will have the exact density pre-strip.
So there it is. However I asked the doctor one last question, " Doc, What happens to the overall and local density in FUE? He says there is a DIFFUSE DECREASE IN DENSITY. Which is the decrease in density overall and not localized as much as the density decrease around a strip excision suture line.
This makes sense. This doesn't give any procedure a better outcome in terms of density but IMO does provide more questions, insight and clarity instead of dodging the truth."
Thanks bigmac.
|
CIT
13.06.2008, 18:05
@ bigmac
|
Official poll: Here are the numbers up close and personal |
» "CIT,
»
» First let me thank you for answering half of the questions asked. However
» you left out the most important part of the question that no one wishes to
» answer or address. I do understand that each and every graft must be
» checked in order to confirm the transections acquired upon extraction as
» well as to count the numbers per graft. Most clinics that perform FUE have
» adopted this documentation but what intrigues me more is the fact that
» sometimes follicular units in the donor area can be damaged by the punch
» DURING the extraction process. While it might not be a regular occurance,
» it is more evident in higher density patients that have higher numbers of
» hairs per graft and a density that is normal to high (very tightly packed
» follicular units) . The study that I read and quoted in the previous post
» (from a sponsored clinic on this site), stated that given these
» conditions, PERIPHERAL TRANSECTIONS IN THE DONOR AREA ARE INEVITABLE, AND
» INCREASING PUNCH SIZE WILL INCREASE THE PERIPHERAL TRANSECTIONS AKA "THE
» HALO EFFECT".
»
» So I ask you once more. How do you account for peripheral transections? Or
» is this just something that is over looked... which would then even the
» playing field of the strip vs. FUE transection accountability given perfect
» conditions for both procedures? In other words... Transection rates for
» both procedures are virtually similar (3%-10%) taken into account
» advancements in both procedures and knowing full well that peripheral
» transections during FUE are real and unaccounted for.
»
» The second part of this debate is really easy when speaking about the
» strip excision and density changes. I asked the opinion of a well known and
» accomplished strip surgeon what he thought happened to the density in the
» donor area when you excise a strip and FUE. It is simple. The OVERALL
» DENSITY DECREASES... Dah! If you started out with 100 follicular units
» overall, then take a 25% strip out of the middle, then, what happens?
» 1. The overall density decreases by 25% However the density decrease
» occurs in one area and after the suture of the upper and lower strip, the
» density decrease is virtually unnoticed... at first... then...
» 2. Healing begins and some stretch back can occur, which can potentially
» pull folicular units apart from one another... ONLY near the strip line.
» though.
» 3. The area right at the strip suture line. If all conditions are perfect,
» i.e. virgin scalp, good closure, patient follows post op instructions,
» resulting in a pencil line scar, the decrease in density AROUND THE SCAR
» (during stretch back) WILL BE LESS THAN 5% WHICH WILL BE NEGLIGIBLE TO THE
» NAKED EYE. Everywhere else will have the exact density pre-strip.
»
» So there it is. However I asked the doctor one last question, " Doc, What
» happens to the overall and local density in FUE? He says there is a DIFFUSE
» DECREASE IN DENSITY. Which is the decrease in density overall and not
» localized as much as the density decrease around a strip excision suture
» line.
»
» This makes sense. This doesn't give any procedure a better outcome in
» terms of density but IMO does provide more questions, insight and clarity
» instead of dodging the truth."
»
» Thanks bigmac.
Bigmac,
You are very welcome. The basic mathematics of one’s donor area can vary based on race. Caucasians usually have a higher hair density and Asians typically have a lower hair density. Each patient is not created equal and no two donors are the same
The majority of patients who have a finer thickness of hair usually have more hairs per follicular unit. Patients who have larger follicular units typically have thicker hairs. The trade off is significant in some cases because the hair follicles may even be wavier.
Our clinic uses small customized devices after careful examination of any given patient’s donor area. You will see from the photo below, the follicle angulations, instrumentation, and magnification account for low transaction.
Peripheral transaction is insignificant as you may notice that follicular units are naturally distributed on the donor area. To ensure that this doesn’t occur, Dr. Cole routinely changes devices during the procedure as follicle may splay in different directions. To compensate for the characteristics, Dr.Cole uses his judgment to determine what instrument will accomplish the best result on the donor area as well as recipient area.
Below is a microscope photo taken of an above average donor that measures a donor density of 250 hairs per square centimeter and 90 follicular units per square centimeter. Please remember that the follicular units naturally grow at a density that allows tolerance for these extremely small geometric instruments to harvest between them. There is no pattern at which the FU are harvested other than being harvested at a low density for preservation of the area. I will have you know that “diffuse decrease in density” is another way of saying that our clinic uses an actual device on the donor area as to not over-harvest any one particular area. I would be enlightened to see the data that shows any peripheral transaction from a given clinic. With the small instruments we use at our clinic, peripheral transaction is non-existent. Every graft is examined before the next process occurs. Once I do find an isolated incident where a surrounding FU was compromised then I will post the recorded data.
In the end, the donor area or donor density will always decrease by any harvesting method. The questions of a lifetime will be which patients will have the unbearable side-effects. What patients will have the luxury of wearing their desired hair style, and what donor resource will be available after the laxity of the donor is non-existent. Each patient must decide if the risks outweigh the benefits.
Get your for free consult right here!
---
Toll Free: 800 368 4247
USA: 1 (678) 566-1011
Email: consults@forhair.com
www.forhair.com |
jotronic
13.06.2008, 21:25
@ CIT
|
Is a blade capable of making an incision in your donor without destroying an FU? |
There has been some mention of how the blade from a scalpel absolutely must destroy many many grafts during extraction. CIT mentioned that it is virtually impossible to NOT destroy some hairs when using a DOUBLE blade scalpel. I agree, that's why better clinics use a single blade scalpel. Here's the trick though; If one were to remove a strip with a "linear" incision as CIT suggests then of course hair will be destroyed, multi-blade scalpel or single. The key is to NOT cut a straight line but navigate between the follicular bundles and make adjustments on the fly.
Here are a few example photos of a strip done right...
![[image]](http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3047/2576002175_846c49e8a2_o.jpg)
![[image]](http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3106/2576002263_960d340bf6_b.jpg)
![[image]](http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3067/2576831552_9ccdf8fcea_b.jpg)
As you can see, the follicles at the edge of the tissue are perfectly fine and hardly a trasectional waste land. As with any procedure however, results will vary from clinic to clinic.
As far as donor density goes, a proper strip taken from a patient with laxity suitable for the intended size procedure will experience no decrease in density especially none that is perceptible to the human eye. I say suitable for the intended size session because a good clinic will close with minimal tension and there are ways to decrease the tension during the procedure. You get to the higher threshhold of what is possible with strip, then yeah, the decrease in density will occur but even then it is pretty hard to see. My donor area is a bit thinner after 8000 grafts with Dr. Wong and my two nasty mini-grafts sessions with Dr. Norris but the decrease is slight and I've had more work done than most here. The great thing is that skin has an amazing ability to expand and even regrow under tension. This is why you don't read about megasession patients complaining that their donor area has thinned.
With FUE there is an immediate decrease in density because the tissue that the FU used to reside in is still intact and left behind. Less hair, same amount of tissue. The ability to actually see this depends however on the original donor density and of course how localized or spread out the extraction area is. You pull 1000 grafts over the entirety of a patients true donor zone and nothing will seem out of place, to the patient or to those around them. You take those same 1000 grafts out of a single area then people will be asking why you have a hole in your hair. It's pretty simple, really, and only means that a clinic, strip or FUE, needs to exercise some basic common sense when performing a procedure.
---
Joe Tillman
aka, Jotronic
Hasson & Wong
www.hassonandwong.com
www.hairtransplanttv.com
Joe@HassonandWong.com
1.800.859.2266
The Truth Is In The Results
7917 FU Grafts |
Jtelecom
13.06.2008, 22:45
(edited by Jtelecom, 13.06.2008, 23:01)
@ jotronic
|
Is a blade capable of making an incision in your donor without destroying an FU? |
"With FUE there is an immediate decrease in density because the tissue that the FU used to reside in is still intact and left behind. Less hair, same amount of tissue."
I see what you are saying and you have put it out there in a very elegant and straightforward manner. However, the above statement is not 100% correct. For example, when a surgeon uses a .75 mm diameter punch, the tissue, along with the embedded FU are extracted and not left behind still intact. For a 3000 graft FUE procedure using a .75 mm punch, approximately 13.25 square centimeters of tissue are removed in the process. A 1.0 mm punch yields about 24 square centimeters of tissue (about a 9-inch by 1 centimeter strip)
---
Jtelecom
5 Strip Surgeries (4 Bosley, 1 AlviArmani)
3 FUE Surgeries (2 Undisclosed, 1 AlviArmani)
(Latest FUE Surgery: June 6, 2008 - AlviArmani Los Angeles) |
CIT
13.06.2008, 23:35
@ bigmac
|
take a look up close - round 2 |
Bigmac,
You are very welcome. The basic mathematics of one’s donor area can vary based on race. Caucasians usually have a higher hair density and Asians typically have a lower hair density. Each patient is not created equal and no two donors are the same
The majority of patients who have a finer thickness of hair usually have more hairs per follicular unit. Patients who have larger follicular units typically have thicker hairs. The trade off is significant in some cases because the hair follicles may even be wavier.
Our clinic uses small customized devices after careful examination of any given patient’s donor area. You will see from the photo below, the follicle angulations, instrumentation, and magnification account for low transaction.
Peripheral transaction is insignificant as you may notice that follicular units are naturally distributed on the donor area. To ensure that this doesn’t occur, Dr. Cole routinely changes devices during the procedure as follicle may splay in different directions. To compensate for the characteristics, Dr.Cole uses his judgment to determine what instrument will accomplish the best result on the donor area as well as recipient area.
Below is a microscope photo taken of an above average donor that measures a donor density of 250 hairs per square centimeter and 90 follicular units per square centimeter. Please remember that the follicular units naturally grow at a density that allows tolerance for these extremely small geometric instruments to harvest between them. There is no pattern at which the FU are harvested other than being harvested at a low density for preservation of the area. I will have you know that “diffuse decrease in density” is another way of saying that our clinic uses an actual device on the donor area as to not over-harvest any one particular area. I would be enlightened to see the data that shows any peripheral transaction from a given clinic. With the small instruments we use at our clinic, peripheral transaction is non-existent. Every graft is examined before the next process occurs. Once I do find an isolated incident where a surrounding FU was compromised then I will post the recorded data.
In the end, the donor area or donor density will always decrease by any harvesting method. The questions of a lifetime will be which patients will have the unbearable side-effects. What patients will have the luxury of wearing their desired hair style, and what donor resource will be available after the laxity of the donor is non-existent. Each patient must decide if the risks outweigh the benefits.
![[image]](img/uploaded/764_image188.jpg)
Free online consultation form to find your treatment plan
---
Toll Free: 800 368 4247
USA: 1 (678) 566-1011
Email: consults@forhair.com
My advice is not medical advice
www.forhair.com
---
Toll Free: 800 368 4247
USA: 1 (678) 566-1011
Email: consults@forhair.com
www.forhair.com |
jotronic
13.06.2008, 23:39
@ Jtelecom
|
Is a blade capable of making an incision in your donor without destroying an FU? |
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