goata007
16.06.2008, 00:40 |
Another example - Follica may actually work! (Hair Multiplication & Research) |
Someone asked Rassman this question last year about gefitinib:
"Have you ever heard of a drug called Gefitinib? P.A. Burt observed a few years ago that a patient treated with the drug who had been bald for many years experienced sudden robust hair growth. I know of one other anecdotal report in which a patient experienced terminal hair growth at the tip of his nose. Aside from this, I’m not able to find any other infromation on the drug. I wonder what its safety profile and mechanism of action would be, especially when administered concomitantly with finasteride. Cool, huh?"
Note the guy mentions "bald for many years". That's really exiciting, I was just talking about EGF inhibitor on another forum that how over expression of EGF could make it difficult for hair to grow and inhibiting it, followed by abrasion could actually help follicles.
There is a possibility that the bald guy probably shaved his head quite often, and when he got on gefitinib, he created a good environment for follicles to make terminal hair. Btw, People who don't know about gefitinib, this is one of the drugs used in Follica procedure
http://www.baldingblog.com/2007/07/27/gefitinib-grows-hair/
goata007 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO ---
"If we knew what it was that we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?" - Albert Einstein |
cal
25.06.2008, 21:12
@ Amilcar
|
We missed something about the Geftinib patient! |
I'm not really thinking much about this guy. Stranger things have happened. Whatever it was, I have a feeling that Folica understands the whole thing better than we do. I just take this as another sign that the basic theory of the project is viable.
If Folica's testing fails to regrow anything on the human testers, then I will start getting interested in the specifics of this guy's case. (And Folica probably will too!)
cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Amilcar
25.06.2008, 20:09
@ cal
|
We missed something about the Geftinib patient! |
The MILLION dollar question is ...what is the conjunction/scenario of events that made this patient regrow hair out of 1000 patients ?
It can be anything ..in short its Gefitinib + X ...What is this X ???
Amilcar is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
cal
25.06.2008, 19:55
@ goata007
|
We missed something about the Geftinib patient! |
In this case, I think the million dollar question is what condition his immune system was in at the time he regrew that hair. Drug-induced or otherwise.
The only real difference that we're aware of between the human/mouse skin tests for Folica is the immunosuppression that was done on the mice.
cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
goata007
25.06.2008, 19:52
@ Amilcar
|
We missed something about the Geftinib patient! |
» As a cancer patient he certainly must have been on other drugs ..can You
» ask that doctor, for us, about what he was taking at the time (except
» geftinib )
»
» Also not to be discarded the possiblity that He started some natural
» treatment(classic patient behaviour when seeing that the modern drugs are
» not working)...For instance Curcumin is known to be good at fighting
» cancer..at the same time Curcumin has deep interferings with the hair
» follicle pathways.
i asked about this, Dr. said that he wasn't doing anything for his hairloss, infact he didn't care. So for the guy it was actually sort of a bonus and was surprised by it.
As of treatment for his cancer, I'm not sure about that. Again, even though the patient is deceased the Doctor might be resistant to giving out full details of his medications/supplements. I think he was only taking gefitinib because the study was titled "hair growth after gefitinib".
goata007 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO ---
"If we knew what it was that we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?" - Albert Einstein |
Amilcar
25.06.2008, 19:15
@ Amilcar
|
goata007 this is for you |
Please read my previous post and tell me if you have any answer...
Amilcar is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Amilcar
25.06.2008, 09:33
(edited by Amilcar, 25.06.2008, 09:47)
@ Sceptic
|
We missed something about the Geftinib patient! |
As a cancer patient he certainly must have been on other drugs ..can You ask that doctor, for us, about what he was taking at the time (except geftinib )
Also not to be discarded the possiblity that He started some natural treatment(classic patient behaviour when seeing that the modern drugs are not working)...For instance Curcumin is known to be good at fighting cancer..at the same time Curcumin has deep interferings with the hair follicle pathways.
Amilcar is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
cal
20.06.2008, 02:51
@ rev
|
This is quite significant guys. Here's the image. |
The cancer patient's new hair characteristics:
I think a lot of the difference is that the new hairs just look weakened and not affected by greying. I don't see anything really DIFFERENT. Not in the sense of blond becoming brunette or curly hairs becoming straighter.
I think it looks like the new hairs' characteristics could have potentially been 100% fine (and probably also not greyed!) if the area's growth had gone full-bore according to the Folica plan and everything had worked right.
Benji:
Are you really saying that topical Minox won't be part of the deal for Folica's topical setup? I knew they were sensitive about the wound being treated, but I would have thought Minox would have been used topically if they were gonna try any of the drugs topically at all.
Okay, then what's the story on getting & using Loniten orally? Any thoughts?
Honestly I've never been a minox fan. I'd love to hear that it wasn't a major growth difference in the tests; I would just skip the Minox entirely.
cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
rev
your nightmares,
19.06.2008, 22:11
@ Mr. Frodo
|
This is quite significant guys. Here's the image. |
» i think this forum has totally lost it, you guys are thinking of using
» cancer drugs to treat hair loss ?
It sure beats obsessing over hairlines in the celebrity section.
You need to learn a thing or two about the history of recycling drugs.
.
rev is located in YOUR NIGHTMARES and he is available to meet: NO |
benji
19.06.2008, 16:23
@ TAGOHL
|
Wow! |
dayum.............!!!!! looks like his shaving area took over his nose....that IS weird, yikes!!!
benji is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Sceptic
19.06.2008, 15:38
@ hairback
|
the second publication |
» I have a request, next time can you put the link without spaces between?
» It's driving me crazy having to piece them together, thanks.
Yes, it must be a titanic effort , I guess doms will follow for several days
Sceptic is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Baccy
19.06.2008, 14:59
@ TAGOHL
|
Text of the article is here |
BTW Tagohl you're right about the quercetin. Widely available from supplement stores. It inhibits tyrosine kinase and it's as cheap as chips. It might be worth mixing up a topical with this instead of going down the hardcore drug route. It's also water soluble so a big plus there too.
Baccy has 1 Personal Journal(s). Click here to view
Baccy is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
hairback
19.06.2008, 14:56
@ risc
|
the second publication |
» » » Can you get either of the following?
» » »
» » An unusual terminal hair growth on the nose tip associated with
» gefitinib
» » therapy.
» »
» » Br J Dermatol. 2007 May;156(5):1087-8.
» »
» » PMID: 17388923 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
» » »
»
» link > http://www.m e g a f i l e u p l o a
» d.com/en/file/70629/AnUnusTermHairGrowOnTheNosTipAssoWithGefitinibTher-pdf.html
I have a request, next time can you put the link without spaces between? It's driving me crazy having to piece them together, thanks.
hairback is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
TAGOHL
19.06.2008, 14:43
@ risc
|
Wow! |
»» An unusual terminal hair growth on the nose tip associated with gefitinib
»» therapy.
»»
»» Br J Dermatol. 2007 May;156(5):1087-8.
»»
»» PMID: 17388923 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
»»
»»
» link > http://www.m e g a f i l e u p l o a
» d.com/en/file/70629/AnUnusTermHairGrowOnTheNosTipAssoWithGefitinibTher-pdf.html
Wow, talk about terminal hair growth in a strange place. I thought it would be just one or two follicles, not tons of them.
Thanks for posting all these papers.
TAGOHL is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
TAGOHL
19.06.2008, 14:40
@ benji
|
Sure, no problem. N/T |
N/T
TAGOHL is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
TAGOHL
19.06.2008, 14:38
@ goata007
|
Text of the article is here |
» Now i'm a little bit concerned about the hair quality though, Dr.Burt said
» the new hair had baby texture - probably thin & silky.
It didn't look too thin from an observer's viewpoint, but I suspect the silky texture etc. could have resulted from continued use of the gefitinib (changes in existing hair texture/characterisics are a known side-effect of this class of drugs). Of course, Follica's protocol would use gefitinib for just long enough for the new hair follicle to start to form. In other words, maybe Follica's protocol avoids this (although I certainly wouldn't complain too much otherwise -- it's a minor detail overall).
> However, he did retain his hair without DHT inhibitors, so that's a plus!
Wouldn't it be crazy if creating hair follicles in a high androgenic environment actually makes the new follicles enjoy androgens...just like body hair, which thrive on androgens.
TAGOHL is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
goata007
19.06.2008, 11:20
@ benji
|
Text of the article is here |
» Ive got a feeling the egf-inhibition, the anti-androgen, the minox, and
» the lithium would be more than enough though...............
Now i'm a little bit concerned about the hair quality though, Dr.Burt said the new hair had baby texture - probably thin & silky. However, he did retain his hair without DHT inhibitors, so that's a plus!
goata007 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO ---
"If we knew what it was that we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?" - Albert Einstein |
goata007
19.06.2008, 09:25
@ goata007
|
This is quite significant guys. Here's the image. |
» I emailed Dr. Burt (the one who wrote the article) and following is his
» response.
»
» "The patient maintained his hair up until death. The quality of the
» hair was finer and more like baby hair. He was able to go to his
» daughter's wedding with his new hair. Hair growth with EGFR receptor
» inhibitors is common but is often in unwanted areas. I have 2 patients
» whose eyelash growth on erlotinib is so intense they have to keep trimming
» them. Facial hair in women is a problem. As far as I am aware Astra Zeneca
» have not taken this side effect further. Gefitinib failed to get a license
» in the UK for treating non small cell lung cancer having had a set of
» adverse trial results which dramatically affected AZ's share price. It has
» been superceeded by erlotinib manufactured by Roche."
Few more answers from Dr. Burt:
1. was the patient completely bald in the area of new regrowth? Yes
2. The hair in picture, is that regrowth at one month of taking gefitinib? 2-3 months
3. did he regrow any more hair? Just that area
4. Also, did he used to shave his head/massage it etc, anything unusual? No. He had no interest in his baldness but was as amazed as I was.
goata007 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO ---
"If we knew what it was that we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?" - Albert Einstein |
benji
19.06.2008, 08:16
@ cal
|
Text of the article is here |
» Benji, to point this out again:
»
» Leflunomide has the EGF-R properties that we're hoping will grow hairs.
» But the much more common complaint from Leflunomide patients has been from
» hair LOSS than gain (at least after several weeks or months on the drug). I'd only be on the Arava for about 10 days, tops
» That suggests to me that continuing the EGF-R blocking after the critical
» period might do more harm than good for new hairs. Either that or else
» Folica missed something BIG about the whole process. Yes, hence why I'd only want to be on it for about ten days.....about day three after the wounding until day thirteen after the wounding. Hair germs were detected seven days post wounding in the human skin example in the patent....this would be that plus about five or six days, enough for the germs to really develop
» » I think just that issue alone could help explain some of the imperfect
» hair growth we see on the Gentifib patient's head in the pics. (But look
» at his density- NOT BAD to my eyes. If that new hair was thicker-shafted
» and longer it might look quite good. This isn't the kind of weak
» scattering of grafts that we've trained ourselves to expect from previous
» HM efforts.)
»
»
»
»
»
» As for the drugs, I'm wondering two things:
»
» 1. Do you know how Leflunomide might compare to Gentifib in the critical
» EGF-R issue? They both inhibit epidermal growth factor, I'd have to read up if this is done via tyrosine kinease activity with one of them or not, arava is an arthritis medication and getfitinib is for cancers if I remember correctly, so they obviously do other things...I know Gentifib looks like the better shot for skin Probably, its mentioned earlier in the patent paragraph that goes into this, but there were several other drugs mentioned also for egf-blockage....
» absorption, but what about orally? If I wanna mess with this now then
» could I just use oral Arava and skip the Gentifib?
»
» 2. Have we ever decided what Loniten & Minox & the antihistamine are
» bringing to the table? Anything major? Loniten and minox are the same thing. They were used in one of the experimental examples and found to enhance the hair growth. Loniten is simply pill form minox.....to be honest, if you used quite a bit of minox on the head, but above and below the treated area, some of it would affect the treated area. I wouldn't want to risk propylene glycol and alcohol on the wound. If I end up bothering with this, I only want to do it once. Make no mistake, dermabrading your scalp would probably hurt for several days as that is very sensitive skin (the head).
The anti-histamine is in the patent as an adjunctive. Other than just being an anti-inflammatory, I dont know why its in there, maybe they are just throwing everything they think could help at it.....who knows......but it is something in the patent people could add at home that takes no prescript....
Ive got a feeling the egf-inhibition, the anti-androgen, the minox, and the lithium would be more than enough though...............
benji is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
haroldo
19.06.2008, 06:39
@ haroldo
|
Text of the article is here |
Wow - that hair growth on the tip of the nose is kinda scary when you actually see it! I was expecting something a lot smaller. Instead it looks like a full-on 5 o clock shadow over the nose. Its possible that something less dramatic is going on with a lot of peeople but they arent making the connection.
At any rate EGF is only harmful to hair follicle formation in a short critical period. Constant use of EGFR inhibitors seems to lead to slower scalp hair growth as mentioned here.
hh
haroldo is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
haroldo
19.06.2008, 06:30
@ TAGOHL
|
Text of the article is here |
» » Benji, to point this out again:
» »
» » Leflunomide has the EGF-R properties
»
» This is an ancillary property of the drug.
»
» » That suggests to me that continuing the EGF-R blocking after the
» critical
» » period might do more harm than good for new hairs.
»
» Hair loss isn't a complaint with long-term gefitinib use, but it is with
» leflunomide, which means the hair loss isn't likely the result of blockade
» of the EGFR (otherwise, both drugs would cause hair loss).
Good point. I did a bit of reading on lefluonomide and got the impression that it was a pretty messy drug - effecting a lot of different processes and thus giving it a rather high side effect profile.
» » 1. Do you know how Leflunomide might compare to Gentifib in the
» critical
» » EGF-R issue?
»
» It's not likely to be as good, IMO. Also, leflunomide is a dirty drug in
» the sense that it does a lot more than interfere with the EGF pathway. So,
» while you may get some EGF antagonism, you are getting other stuff that you
» may not want. A couple of other downsides: leflunomide is a pro-drug (which
» means in order for it to work, it needs to be converted to its active
» form...which may or may not happen if it's used topically), and it has a
» very long half-life after oral use (meaning you'll still be getting its
» effects for a long while after stopping the drug).
Ah....you pretty much said all that already 
» » 2. Have we ever decided what Loniten & Minox & the antihistamine are
» » bringing to the table? Anything major?
»
» According to the patent, minoxidil enhances follicular neogenesis after
» wounding.
haroldo is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
risc
19.06.2008, 05:52
@ risc
|
the second publication |
» » Can you get either of the following?
» »
» An unusual terminal hair growth on the nose tip associated with gefitinib
» therapy.
»
» Br J Dermatol. 2007 May;156(5):1087-8.
»
» PMID: 17388923 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
» »
link > http://www.m e g a f i l e u p l o a d.com/en/file/70629/AnUnusTermHairGrowOnTheNosTipAssoWithGefitinibTher-pdf.html
risc is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
cal
19.06.2008, 05:14
@ TAGOHL
|
Thanks! N/T |
I can't imagine needing a whole batch of 30 Gentifib pills just for experimenting with a home-brewed topical on some test patches.
You guys with the $375 Gentifib bottles - Anybody wanna sell me a few of your pills thru the mail or something?
cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
TAGOHL
18.06.2008, 16:51
@ risc
|
Thanks! N/T |
N/T
TAGOHL is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
benji
18.06.2008, 16:19
@ TAGOHL
|
Benji... |
» » Damnit nix
»
» Nix was kind enough to post that source, but I had already found that
» website even before I asked him which site he was referring to. Of course,
» the day after I placed the order, another site agreed to sell it to me
» cheaper - $350 for 30 tabs...oh well.
thank you very much TAGHOL, I will be looking into this. Ive stated to others online that if they are thinking about trying a spot of the procedure, they might as well and try to cop the procedure as closely as possible....and for that they'd need what follica is using as much as possible.
benji is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Baccy
18.06.2008, 15:45
@ risc
|
...find just one article. |
» » Can you get either of the following?
» »
» » J Am Acad Dermatol. 2008 Apr;58(4):642-3.
» »
» » Epidermal growth factor receptor inhibitors and hair.
» »
» » Heymann WR.
» »
» » PMID: 18342710 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
» »
»
»
» link > http://www.m e g a f i l e u p l o a
» d.com/en/file/70534/EpGrowthFacReceptorInhibitors-and-hair-pdf.html
It looks like the effects of Gefitinib conflict with Follica's patent. Unless the action of the drug radically alters with the introduction of epidermal wounding.
Baccy has 1 Personal Journal(s). Click here to view
Baccy is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
risc
18.06.2008, 14:40
@ TAGOHL
|
...find just one article. |
» Can you get either of the following?
»
» J Am Acad Dermatol. 2008 Apr;58(4):642-3.
»
» Epidermal growth factor receptor inhibitors and hair.
»
» Heymann WR.
»
» PMID: 18342710 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
»
link > http://www.m e g a f i l e u p l o a d.com/en/file/70534/EpGrowthFacReceptorInhibitors-and-hair-pdf.html
risc is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
TAGOHL
18.06.2008, 14:17
@ cal
|
Text of the article is here |
I also prefer oral over topical, and 10 days isn't that long.
I'm not sure about combining leflunomide with gefitinib. I think gefitinib alone (either orally or topically) would probably be plenty. Leflunomide by itself may also be an option. The patent indicates the topical can have multiple drugs (EGF inhibitor, minox, finasteride, etc.), but IIRC, only one of the EGF inhibitors is used.
TAGOHL is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
TAGOHL
18.06.2008, 13:53
@ risc
|
To Risc |
Can you get either of the following?
J Am Acad Dermatol. 2008 Apr;58(4):642-3.
Epidermal growth factor receptor inhibitors and hair.
Heymann WR.
PMID: 18342710 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
An unusual terminal hair growth on the nose tip associated with gefitinib therapy.
Br J Dermatol. 2007 May;156(5):1087-8.
PMID: 17388923 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
TAGOHL is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
cal
18.06.2008, 13:49
@ TAGOHL
|
Text of the article is here |
Mr. Frodo -
Those Gentifib issues are a bunch of systemic problems with long-term oral use. We're talking short-term topical use for hair.
TAGOHL -
Yeah, I know Leflunomide isn't without issues if taken orally. I've read about the sides, the need to use activated charcoal or something to kick the stuff out of the body as soon as you want it gone, etc.
I just prefer temporary Leflunomide side effects over the long-term side effects of being bald, ya know what I mean? I'd give myself two weeks of the shiits or stomach aches or anything else I have to do if it'll regrow real hair right now and not 5 years from now.
But if this Gentifib source is legit then $375 for the cream of the crop sounds like a better idea (Even ghetto overseas Leflunomide still isn't VERY cheap).
Or even do some of both oral Leflu & topical Genti? We have no real dosage & topical mixture information on this stuff yet. And the patents don't give any specifics beyond that "some conbination of" wording. Can we go wrong with too much EGF-R inhibition?
cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
TAGOHL
18.06.2008, 13:42
@ bug2
|
Benji... |
» Damnit nix
Nix was kind enough to post that source, but I had already found that website even before I asked him which site he was referring to. Of course, the day after I placed the order, another site agreed to sell it to me cheaper - $350 for 30 tabs...oh well.
TAGOHL is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
TAGOHL
18.06.2008, 13:33
@ Baccy
|
Text of the article is here |
» Does the patent require topical application of gefitinib or oral ingestion?
The patent focuses on topical application, but it does mention oral administration as an alternative.
BTW, gefitinib is only one of several drugs mentioned in the patent. What you want to do is inhibit epidermal growth factor (EGF) -- several drugs are on the market that do this...gefitinib happens to be one of them.
TAGOHL is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
debris
18.06.2008, 12:57
@ goata007
|
This is quite significant guys. Here's the image. |
That just shows how hair is not important really.
» I emailed Dr. Burt (the one who wrote the article) and following is his
» response.
»
» "The patient maintained his hair up until death. The quality of the
» hair was finer and more like baby hair. He was able to go to his
» daughter's wedding with his new hair. Hair growth with EGFR receptor
» inhibitors is common but is often in unwanted areas. I have 2 patients
» whose eyelash growth on erlotinib is so intense they have to keep trimming
» them. Facial hair in women is a problem. As far as I am aware Astra Zeneca
» have not taken this side effect further. Gefitinib failed to get a license
» in the UK for treating non small cell lung cancer having had a set of
» adverse trial results which dramatically affected AZ's share price. It has
» been superceeded by erlotinib manufactured by Roche."
debris has 1 Personal Journal(s). Click here to view
debris is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Mr. Frodo
18.06.2008, 12:55
@ goata007
|
This is quite significant guys. Here's the image. |
» I emailed Dr. Burt (the one who wrote the article) and following is his
» response.
»
» "The patient maintained his hair up until death. The quality of the
» hair was finer and more like baby hair. He was able to go to his
» daughter's wedding with his new hair. Hair growth with EGFR receptor
» inhibitors is common but is often in unwanted areas. I have 2 patients
» whose eyelash growth on erlotinib is so intense they have to keep trimming
» them. Facial hair in women is a problem. As far as I am aware Astra Zeneca
» have not taken this side effect further. Gefitinib failed to get a license
» in the UK for treating non small cell lung cancer having had a set of
» adverse trial results which dramatically affected AZ's share price. It has
» been superceeded by erlotinib manufactured by Roche."
i think this forum has totally lost it, you guys are thinking of using cancer drugs to treat hair loss ?
Mr. Frodo is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
debris
18.06.2008, 12:54
@ benji
|
Text of the article is here |
Maybe he just had a hair transplant and was too ashamed to admit it to the woman doctor
debris has 1 Personal Journal(s). Click here to view
debris is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
bug2
18.06.2008, 12:34
@ TAGOHL
|
Benji... |
» Real quick, I am in a hurry...
»
» » I haven't been able to find it anywhere without a doc's prescript.....
»
» 3gchemist.com. Cost is $375 USD (+ $20 shipping) for 30 tabs @ 250mg. It's
» a generic version made by an Indian drug firm. I had never used this
» pharmacy before, but delivery was fast (they also give you a tracking
» number), and no script was required (even though the verbage on the website
» indicates you need one...there's a checkbox or radio button when you select
» the item asking if the drug you are buying needs a script...you just select
» no).
»
» I can give you some other places that I've used before which sell the
» brand name version, but the price exceeds $2K for 30 tabs.
Damnit nix
bug2 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Baccy
18.06.2008, 12:22
@ TAGOHL
|
Text of the article is here |
Does the patent require topical application of gefitinib or oral ingestion?
Baccy has 1 Personal Journal(s). Click here to view
Baccy is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
TAGOHL
18.06.2008, 11:27
@ cal
|
Text of the article is here |
» Benji, to point this out again:
»
» Leflunomide has the EGF-R properties
This is an ancillary property of the drug.
» That suggests to me that continuing the EGF-R blocking after the critical
» period might do more harm than good for new hairs.
Hair loss isn't a complaint with long-term gefitinib use, but it is with leflunomide, which means the hair loss isn't likely the result of blockade of the EGFR (otherwise, both drugs would cause hair loss).
» 1. Do you know how Leflunomide might compare to Gentifib in the critical
» EGF-R issue?
It's not likely to be as good, IMO. Also, leflunomide is a dirty drug in the sense that it does a lot more than interfere with the EGF pathway. So, while you may get some EGF antagonism, you are getting other stuff that you may not want. A couple of other downsides: leflunomide is a pro-drug (which means in order for it to work, it needs to be converted to its active form...which may or may not happen if it's used topically), and it has a very long half-life after oral use (meaning you'll still be getting its effects for a long while after stopping the drug).
» 2. Have we ever decided what Loniten & Minox & the antihistamine are
» bringing to the table? Anything major?
According to the patent, minoxidil enhances follicular neogenesis after wounding.
TAGOHL is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
TAGOHL
18.06.2008, 10:17
@ benji
|
Benji... |
Real quick, I am in a hurry...
» I haven't been able to find it anywhere without a doc's prescript.....
3gchemist.com. Cost is $375 USD (+ $20 shipping) for 30 tabs @ 250mg. It's a generic version made by an Indian drug firm. I had never used this pharmacy before, but delivery was fast (they also give you a tracking number), and no script was required (even though the verbage on the website indicates you need one...there's a checkbox or radio button when you select the item asking if the drug you are buying needs a script...you just select no).
I can give you some other places that I've used before which sell the brand name version, but the price exceeds $2K for 30 tabs.
TAGOHL is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
goata007
18.06.2008, 09:25
@ debris
|
This is quite significant guys. Here's the image. |
I emailed Dr. Burt (the one who wrote the article) and following is his response.
"The patient maintained his hair up until death. The quality of the hair was finer and more like baby hair. He was able to go to his daughter's wedding with his new hair. Hair growth with EGFR receptor inhibitors is common but is often in unwanted areas. I have 2 patients whose eyelash growth on erlotinib is so intense they have to keep trimming them. Facial hair in women is a problem. As far as I am aware Astra Zeneca have not taken this side effect further. Gefitinib failed to get a license in the UK for treating non small cell lung cancer having had a set of adverse trial results which dramatically affected AZ's share price. It has been superceeded by erlotinib manufactured by Roche."
goata007 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO ---
"If we knew what it was that we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?" - Albert Einstein |
Amilcar
18.06.2008, 08:18
@ risc
|
updated with new link |
risc, Thank you so much.
Amilcar is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
risc
18.06.2008, 08:07
@ Amilcar
|
updated with new link |
I find this article interesting " Nonscarring inflammatory alopecia associated with the epidermal growth factor receptor inhibitor gefitinib "
Published (August 2006) in the Journal of the American Academy of Dermatology.
link to this article > http://r a p i d s h a r e.com/files/123296392/the_epidermal_growth_factor_receptor_inhibitor_gefitinib.pdf.html
or
http://www.m e g a f i l e u p l o a d.com/en/file/70473/the-epidermal-growth-factor-receptor-inhibitor-gefitinib-pdf.html
( pls remove spaces )
risc is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Amilcar
18.06.2008, 07:21
@ risc
|
To risc |
Dear risc,
Would you please upload the studies in another filesharing site as Rapidshare is blocked for many of board members (including myself).
I still didt not see the entire gefitnib study.
Best Regards.
Amilcar is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
risc
18.06.2008, 07:15
(edited by risc, 18.06.2008, 07:53)
@ goata007
|
an interesting publication on gefitinib |
I find this article interesting " Nonscarring inflammatory alopecia associated with the epidermal growth factor receptor inhibitor gefitinib "
Published (August 2006) in the Journal of the American Academy of Dermatology.
link to this article > http://r a p i d s h a r e.com/files/123296392/the_epidermal_growth_factor_receptor_inhibitor_gefitinib.pdf.html
or
http://www.m e g a f i l e u p l o a d.com/en/file/70473/the-epidermal-growth-factor-receptor-inhibitor-gefitinib-pdf.html
( pls remove spaces )
risc is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
cal
18.06.2008, 06:40
@ cal
|
Text of the article is here |
(bump)
cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
cal
18.06.2008, 05:06
@ benji
|
Text of the article is here |
Benji, to point this out again:
Leflunomide has the EGF-R properties that we're hoping will grow hairs. But the much more common complaint from Leflunomide patients has been from hair LOSS than gain (at least after several weeks or months on the drug). That suggests to me that continuing the EGF-R blocking after the critical period might do more harm than good for new hairs. Either that or else Folica missed something BIG about the whole process.
I think just that issue alone could help explain some of the imperfect hair growth we see on the Gentifib patient's head in the pics. (But look at his density- NOT BAD to my eyes. If that new hair was thicker-shafted and longer it might look quite good. This isn't the kind of weak scattering of grafts that we've trained ourselves to expect from previous HM efforts.)
As for the drugs, I'm wondering two things:
1. Do you know how Leflunomide might compare to Gentifib in the critical EGF-R issue? I know Gentifib looks like the better shot for skin absorption, but what about orally? If I wanna mess with this now then could I just use oral Arava and skip the Gentifib?
2. Have we ever decided what Loniten & Minox & the antihistamine are bringing to the table? Anything major?
cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
benji
18.06.2008, 03:59
@ cal
|
Text of the article is here |
» I'm not sure what to make of the hair difference.
»
» But it is relevant that this patient grew this hair cold turkey - no
» depilation 3 days before, no wounding whatsoever(!), no 5-day wait between
» injury and the beginning of EGF-R inhibition, no stoppage of the EGF-R
» inhibition after 7-10 days.
»
» I think if the hair can be grown like this with so many of the factors
» totally missing . . . good sign. Very good sign, at least for the idea of
» getting any growth at all.
»
»
»
» Another thing that looks good: The hair isn't white.
as debris has pointed out, this is the only guy that grew hair.......i wonder if he might have shampooed his head a little harshly, or wore a hat that was a bit tight, or used a harsh shampoo up there, or was scratching his head (maybe he has dandruff) or anything that could have irritated the dermis and set this process off.........................the hair created looks a bit like very robust body hair if you look closely........
the good news is this: just imagine if he was on an anti-androgen, minoxidil, an anti-histamine, and used lithium while the hair was being "made", it might be even thicker and the hairs even larger........
benji is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
benji
18.06.2008, 03:52
@ TAGOHL
|
TAGOHL, where did you get the getifitinib? |
» For a drug, the density of regrowth is impressive.
»
» I've been staring at a bottle of gefitinib for about the past 10 days, not
» yet having cracked the seal. It seems too good to be true. I'm a believer
» and a non-believer at the same time. We shall see.
I haven't been able to find it anywhere without a doc's prescript.....
I have found Arava online supposedly without a prescript (if the site is legit).
To me, the biggest issue for "mainstreaming" follica someday (if it works in humans) for them is the fact that if it works like the patent suggests.....it really could be pretty easily replicated at home. All the necessary drugs can be taken orally (dutas, getifitinib, loniten, anti-histamine, lithium salts), so basically its depilate, wound on day three, start taking internals on day six, quit on day 16, dont use an anti-infective on the wound during healing.........that is about it.
TAGOHL, Ive also though that in the months leading up to "doing the procedure", one might use substances on the scalp that have been shown to decrease androgen-receptor expression in human cells (curcumoids, black tea flavoniods, fluridil, etc.) in hopes that the treated area might have less androgen receptor expression when it "remakes itself". Fluridil is actually in parts of the patent as is flutamide----I HOPE that if it works, that SOMEDAY "they" (its always "they" when referencing future scientific advances isn't it?) will be able to block certain genes during the process in which this hair is created and perhaps it wont have any tendencey to be MPB hair at all.......
I dont want to be excited about Follica out of the "hope/desperation" we saw people on this board be excited about Gho/Bazan/Washenik/Neosil/Kemp etc., but in reality........I cannot see any other way to "make" new hair from scratch other than HM, or either Follica or ACELL. Nothing else, other than perhaps creating tissue matrices where HM cells can be grown into fully differentiated hairs outside the body, that I can envision would create real "new" hair. If this does not work, and ACELL doesn't work.........I dont think anything ever will and men will simply be looking for ways to re-enlarge miniaturized hair (which I think wont work in vivo because long-miniaturized hair loses CD200 immuno-markers over time, and thus loses its autoimmune priveleges in any mammal with an immune system, and we aren't SCID mice).......henceforth I "hope" either Follica or ACELL works.
benji is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
debris
18.06.2008, 01:31
@ goata007
|
Text of the article is here |
Cheers goata, I did not notice that it pasted only the first page and not the rest of it where it actuall talks about the hair
Whats interesting that it says that only 1 guy out of 1331 had this hairy sideeffect.
He must have done something differently.
debris has 1 Personal Journal(s). Click here to view
debris is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
cal
18.06.2008, 00:47
@ goata007
|
Thanks, risc |
Maybe he was shaving his bald areas. That would be my strongest guess. And maybe some other medication amped-up the effect (immunosuppression meds of some other sort?)
Well, regardless of what else he was doing, I think it's still a pretty safe bet he didn't follow all of Folica's complicated instructions just right.
And something grew anyway. Something that looks a lot better than the BHTs that some guys have paid so much for.
More observations:
-- The new hair's differences between the rest of his old hair look like at least partially just the result of being younger in nature. The new hairs look thicker. They also look darker in color, but I'm not sure that the darker issue is truly a shade difference. In this case I think it may just be the absence of any greys in the new growth.
-- This guy may not have even been on any DHT inhibitors at the time he grew this. Potentially yet another good sign.
-- It also occurs to me that the continuation of the Gentifib AFTER the formation of any given hair follicle is probably a bad thing rather than a good one. (Leflunomide has actually caused complaints of hurting hair growth after several weeks/months.) His results might look better still if the Gentifib wasn't being continued after a given hair was formed.
cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
goata007
17.06.2008, 23:38
@ TAGOHL
|
Thanks, risc |
» I've been staring at a bottle of gefitinib for about the past 10 days, not
» yet having cracked the seal. It seems too good to be true. I'm a believer
» and a non-believer at the same time. We shall see.
I highly doubt it was just gefitinib that caused hair growth, there must have been some other factor - possibly part of that guy's routine i.e. eating something, shaving head or what not - that contributed significantly to hair growth. If it was just gefitinib then we would have heard about a lot of similar cases.
I really liked the way author wrote "...he is still on gefitinib and enjoying his new appearance." - hell yeah he is!
goata007 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO ---
"If we knew what it was that we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?" - Albert Einstein |
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