Travis Bickle
Post strip surgery HELL,
02.07.2008, 02:23 |
Cal, MPB, Debris, Benji & JTR (Hair Multiplication & Research) |
Hi Guys.
1st of all,I would really like to thank you for your contributions to this board.
I am feeling really low today.I just have a couple of questions/ideas I’d like to bounce of you all.I know you guys don’t have the answers but I do respect your opinions & really need to get things of my chest.
I think it is completely pointless to talk about Follica as they don’t even know when human trials will begin.
Even though I have pretty much dismissed the dream that ICX will give me my life back,they are the only people offering a solution that can be available to the public anytime soon.Like I said before,I am really down & am desperate for anything that will help me.Can it be that ICX-TRC can regrow hairs,just not to the level they had hoped? Maybe it can grow 30-40 hairs/cm2? I would be very happy with that result as I could cover my scars.Do you think they would still be willing to release a product that wont cover your head but offer some coverage at least?
Also,what do you think about Farjo’s comments in regards to combining DP cells with keratin? My donor area has pretty much been destroyed.I would be willing to undergo a traditional HTP with hairs that were grown outside of my body.It is certainly a better solution than this ridiculous body hair transplants.We could have an endless amount of scalp hair to cover our heads. Everyone could have tens of thousands of grafts transplanted into their scalp. This to me seems to be the most realistic solution to our problems. It's not what we have all hoped for but it’s better than hiding under a baseball cap.I wonder if ICX has been trialling this as well or if they have just been focusing on injecting the scalp with cells? What do you know about this overlooked option ?
Thanks for your time guys.
Travis Bickle is located in POST STRIP SURGERY HELL and he is available to meet: NO ---
It’s only after a bald man is butchered by a strip surgeon that he realises that there is nothing wrong with being bald.
It’s better to be naturally bald then disfigured. |
debris
06.07.2008, 16:04
@ Mr.Fantastic
|
cal, for follica and FDA |
I think that it is easy to answer. Many times something grew hair on mice and did not in humans. The mice are immunosupressed. That means it was 1000x easier to grow the hair there.
Get on some immunosupressive drugs. Its said that if you did so, you will grow hair.
debris has 1 Personal Journal(s). Click here to view
debris is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
debris
06.07.2008, 15:11
@ Travis Bickle
|
debris |
» »
» » Travis: I say, fck it. Go and send your pics to Hairsite now. Start
» » freaking doing something about your situation finaly!
»
» YOU MUST BE JOKING!!! The only photo I will send him is a photo of my
» ASS!! The doctor who butchered Jtelecom is promoted by Hairsite.Not to
» mention the doctor who butchered me.
» The HTP forum is a corpse full of maggots.I only go there to try & keep
» the virgins away from the syphilis,aids,herpes & hepatitis spreading
» whores.
I dunno what your situation is. I've seen some bad cases being fixed there though.
debris has 1 Personal Journal(s). Click here to view
debris is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Mr.Fantastic
06.07.2008, 14:03
@ cal
|
cal, for follica and FDA |
» I just think there's too much worrying about too many of the wrong things
» with Folica right now.
»
»
»
» -- I see essentially no worries about us having access to the method.
» Fcuk the approval process, there are local derms and chinese pharmacies.
» That's all we need to know if we're really serious about getting this done.
» (Yes, I really think it can be made to work just as well this amateur way.
» Anything that's worth knowing will have to be listed in the patents
» SOMEWHERE or another.)
»
» -- I see little reason to seriously worry about hair characteristics.
» And I think that whatever desired regrowth doesn't get accomplished on the
» first pass will probably be attainable with several passes anyway. (And
» the mice/skin tests got GREAT density and hair thickness. I think it's
» gonna be all-or-nothing with real humans, and I see little reason to expect
» anything in between.)
»
» -- I see no likely safety issues in the short-term. And the FDA won't
» really find out whether some of these long-term issues are relevant,
» they'll just stamp it as "unknown" and send it to market with a little
» disclaimer.
»
»
»
»
» The only thing really worth worrying about is:
»
» DOES IT WORK ON REAL LIVE HUMANS THE SAME WAY IT WORKED ON THE
» MOUSE-GRAFTED HUMAN SKIN?
Would there be any reason to believe that the grafted human skin would take on the same characteristics of the mice skin shortly after it is grafted? Is there any study out there about this?
Mr.Fantastic is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
cal
06.07.2008, 01:36
@ TAGOHL
|
cal, for follica and FDA |
I just think there's too much worrying about too many of the wrong things with Folica right now.
-- I see essentially no worries about us having access to the method. Fcuk the approval process, there are local derms and chinese pharmacies. That's all we need to know if we're really serious about getting this done. (Yes, I really think it can be made to work just as well this amateur way. Anything that's worth knowing will have to be listed in the patents SOMEWHERE or another.)
-- I see little reason to seriously worry about hair characteristics. And I think that whatever desired regrowth doesn't get accomplished on the first pass will probably be attainable with several passes anyway. (And the mice/skin tests got GREAT density and hair thickness. I think it's gonna be all-or-nothing with real humans, and I see little reason to expect anything in between.)
-- I see no likely safety issues in the short-term. And the FDA won't really find out whether some of these long-term issues are relevant, they'll just stamp it as "unknown" and send it to market with a little disclaimer.
The only thing really worth worrying about is:
DOES IT WORK ON REAL LIVE HUMANS THE SAME WAY IT WORKED ON THE MOUSE-GRAFTED HUMAN SKIN?
cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
TAGOHL
05.07.2008, 19:48
@ Sceptic
|
cal, for follica and FDA |
» IMHO, if follica is basically dermabrasion + EGF inhibitors, then it will
» be a joke,
That's the heart and soul of their procedure. We've posted the excerpts from their patents a number of times on this forum. EGF inhibits hair follicle formation, and blocking it has the opposite effect.
Minus the protocol details we don't know, it really is that simple. That's one of the beauties of their procedure, and it's the reason why Follica thinks they can get it to market so quickly. Whether or not it actually works...that's what the human trial will show us.
TAGOHL is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Mr.Fantastic
05.07.2008, 18:54
@ Travis Bickle
|
cal, for follica and FDA |
» You know what my fear is?
» ICX must have trialed their nonsense on mice prior to humans,right? They
» must have had encouraging results in mice for them to trial it on humans?
» Obviously the positive results in mice didn’t translate into humans.Who is
» to say that Follica will even work in humans? Maybe it will tank in its
» first trial? I hope not,but many “experts” have already said that animals
» can regrow their hair at the drop of a hat.
The biggest glaring difference I see in Follica's accidental hair growth on a mice is that hair (lots of it) was grown on a human skin grafted on the mouse. Most everything else in the past grew hair on mice skin. I don't think this alone would be a gaurantee, but it is a very good sign and it raised my eyebrows.
Mr.Fantastic is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Mr.Fantastic
05.07.2008, 18:49
@ debris
|
cal, for follica and FDA |
» I think you are right but I don't agree with you  I certainly hope it
» was just derma + EGF.
There is a chance it could be that simple? We wouldn't know unless people tried. So far all I've seen are people using some kind of home abrasion or puncturing and apply lithium. You may sprout a few hairs but that will not be enough for many of us, not by a long shot. All the other Sh$t they put in the patent could just be for window dressing, or not. It just could be that simple and just nobody has stumbled upon it until now. Who here is gonna try? Sounds simple right "derma + EGF"? If that alone don't work, you'll have to build off it and figure what is missing from the method. I say start with the simpliest first and go from there.
Mr.Fantastic is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Travis Bickle
Post strip surgery HELL,
05.07.2008, 18:21
@ Sceptic
|
cal, for follica and FDA |
You know what my fear is?
ICX must have trialed their nonsense on mice prior to humans,right? They must have had encouraging results in mice for them to trial it on humans? Obviously the positive results in mice didn’t translate into humans.Who is to say that Follica will even work in humans? Maybe it will tank in its first trial? I hope not,but many “experts” have already said that animals can regrow their hair at the drop of a hat.
Travis Bickle is located in POST STRIP SURGERY HELL and he is available to meet: NO ---
It’s only after a bald man is butchered by a strip surgeon that he realises that there is nothing wrong with being bald.
It’s better to be naturally bald then disfigured. |
Travis Bickle
Post strip surgery HELL,
05.07.2008, 18:09
@ MPB
|
Cal, MPB, Debris, Benji & JTR |
» A lot of people shoot down this idea but depending on what kind of damage
» you have, specifically a bad strip scar, you can get somewhat decent
» coverage using BHT depending, of course, on the quality of your body hair.
» I did that for my strip scar an although it isn't perfect, it did help to
» some extent.
Here’s my problem. Let’s say that Benji ,debris & cal are the top HTP doctors. I go to Benji for a consultation & he makes scandalous allegations about debris & cal. I then go & consult with debris & he makes scandalous allegations about Benji & Cal. Then I go to cal who then tells me scandalous things about Benji & debris. WHO DO I BELIEVE? Are they all butchers or is 1 out the 3 the an honest doctor? How do i find out who is lying & who is telling the truth? I can’t! I have to pay tens of thousands of dollars to find out the hard way.
Besides, look at the results on the HTP forum, they are laughable
» My take on Follica. The patent is out there. There are people right now
» trying all kinds of different applications mentioned in the patent. Odds
» are pretty soon someone will hit the mark. This should be enough incentive
» for Follica to get their arse in gear and get something to market pronto...
» before all these so called hair "junkies" steal their limelight.
I agree.This is an incredibly cut through industry.I wouldn’t put it past another HTP doctor stealing follicas idea,adding something new,calling it their own invention & beating Follica to the finish line.
In some ways, it is good that people like Armani are talking about their own cellular solutions.Nothing gets people moving like friendly competition.
Travis Bickle is located in POST STRIP SURGERY HELL and he is available to meet: NO ---
It’s only after a bald man is butchered by a strip surgeon that he realises that there is nothing wrong with being bald.
It’s better to be naturally bald then disfigured. |
Travis Bickle
Post strip surgery HELL,
05.07.2008, 18:04
@ debris
|
debris |
»
» Travis: I say, fck it. Go and send your pics to Hairsite now. Start
» freaking doing something about your situation finaly!
YOU MUST BE JOKING!!! The only photo I will send him is a photo of my ASS!! The doctor who butchered Jtelecom is promoted by Hairsite.Not to mention the doctor who butchered me.
The HTP forum is a corpse full of maggots.I only go there to try & keep the virgins away from the syphilis,aids,herpes & hepatitis spreading whores.
Travis Bickle is located in POST STRIP SURGERY HELL and he is available to meet: NO ---
It’s only after a bald man is butchered by a strip surgeon that he realises that there is nothing wrong with being bald.
It’s better to be naturally bald then disfigured. |
Travis Bickle
Post strip surgery HELL,
05.07.2008, 18:02
@ topcat611
|
TOPCAT611 |
»
» Your situation can't be any worse then my own.
Wonna bet ?
Get a good concealer and
» get on with your life.
Camouflage developed by the US military couldn’t hide my damage let alone spray on hair.
I would be curious to know who butchered you, as I
» am possibly seeking to remedy my current situation as best I can and
» definitely don't want to make the mistake of choosing the wrong clinic.
I am sorry but I cannot tell you the name of the strip surgeon who butchered me as that will leave me wide open to legal prosecution.Ironic isn’t it? I couldn’t do anything to him but he can sue me.
» Your rant on the ht board was right on. 95% of hairtransplants look like
» crap and are easily picked out of a crowd. The see through hair is a dead
» give away along with patients that were seriously disfigured.
Yes but thousands still line up thinking that a HTP will work for them.I think when people lose their hair they also lose common sense.
» email me at htrepair1@yahoo.com
Travis Bickle is located in POST STRIP SURGERY HELL and he is available to meet: NO ---
It’s only after a bald man is butchered by a strip surgeon that he realises that there is nothing wrong with being bald.
It’s better to be naturally bald then disfigured. |
Sceptic
05.07.2008, 14:53
@ MPB
|
cal, for follica and FDA |
» So I guess your point is- is that Follica is spending all this time,
» effort and money to basically recreate Propecia.
Sorry, I don't understand, what's your point ?
Sceptic is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
MPB
05.07.2008, 14:49
@ Sceptic
|
cal, for follica and FDA |
» » I certainly hope it
» » was just derma + EGF.
»
» me too, I’d love to be proved wrong, but I think the key to hair growth is
» unknown at this time. I remember when Waseda was talking about growth
» factors some years ago, the man did his research, I hope he is well, I
» liked him, from then I still have a list about growth factors and their
» effects on hair, for example :
»
» " both fibroblast growth factor (FGF) and epidermal growth factor (EGF)
» inhibit growth of the hair and hair follicle. Fibroblast growth factor type
» 5 (FGF5) is an especially potent inhibitor. Receptors for these ligands
» were found by immunohistochemical methods on papilla cells, matrix cells
» and stem sells in the bulge region of the hair follicle In a recent in
» vivo, 3-month trial conducted in Europe, a popular lipido-sterol extract of
» S repens (Permixon.) was found to inhibit 5a-reductase, decrease epidermal
» growth factor, and reduce DHT. These changes, found particularly evident in
» the periurethral region, have been observed in previous studies and
» resemble the effects of finasteride. Researchers observed that the
» preferential reduction of DHT and epidermal growth factor content in this
» tissue may explain the clinical improvement of obstructive BPH symptoms."
»
So I guess your point is- is that Follica is spending all this time, effort and money to basically recreate Propecia.
MPB has 1 Personal Journal(s). Click here to view
MPB is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Sceptic
05.07.2008, 14:26
@ debris
|
cal, for follica and FDA |
» I certainly hope it
» was just derma + EGF.
me too, I’d love to be proved wrong, but I think the key to hair growth is unknown at this time. I remember when Waseda was talking about growth factors some years ago, the man did his research, I hope he is well, I liked him, from then I still have a list about growth factors and their effects on hair, for example :
" both fibroblast growth factor (FGF) and epidermal growth factor (EGF) inhibit growth of the hair and hair follicle. Fibroblast growth factor type 5 (FGF5) is an especially potent inhibitor. Receptors for these ligands were found by immunohistochemical methods on papilla cells, matrix cells and stem sells in the bulge region of the hair follicle In a recent in vivo, 3-month trial conducted in Europe, a popular lipido-sterol extract of S repens (Permixon.) was found to inhibit 5a-reductase, decrease epidermal growth factor, and reduce DHT. These changes, found particularly evident in the periurethral region, have been observed in previous studies and resemble the effects of finasteride. Researchers observed that the preferential reduction of DHT and epidermal growth factor content in this tissue may explain the clinical improvement of obstructive BPH symptoms."
Two posts frow waseda I keep :
1 )
VEGF (vascular endothelial growth factor) (aka: VPF: (vascular permeability >factor))
KGF (keratinocyte growth factor)
FGF (fibroblast growth factor)
EGF (epidermal growth factor)
TGF (transforming growth factor)
IGF (insulin-like growth factor)
HGF/SF (hepatocyte growth factor/scatter factor)
PDGF (platelet-derived growth factor)
There they are, in order of significance (as far as I can tell). VEGF appears to be the most important growth factor.
2 ) My theory is many growth factors are needed for re-generation of hair follicles. One growth factor is not enough. We need more.
minox---VEGF, HGF inducer.
Zn++ ion---IGF-1 inducer.
Growing Shot S---aFGF inducer.
Procyainidins in Morehairin---PKC ( Protein kinase C inhibitor ) inhibitors.
Souhakuhi extract---unknown yet.
perilla leaf extract---TNF alpha, mast cell degranulation inhibitor
bayberry extract---DHT inhibitor
spiro solution---anti-androgen
Sceptic is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
debris
05.07.2008, 14:07
@ Sceptic
|
cal, for follica and FDA |
» » They
» » patented a procedure which includes dermabrasion + EGF inhibitors, and
» » that's clearly what they are going to use. It's what produces the hair
» » growth. What Follica HASN'T specified in full detail (it's ambiguous in
» the
» » patent) are things like depth and size of abrasion, length of drug
» » application, additional drugs like minox, etc.
»
» IMHO, if follica is basically dermabrasion + EGF inhibitors, then it will
» be a joke, I hope there is something more, but I doubt it; not to mention
» that playing with growth factors is very dangerous if you don't know very
» well what you are doing.
I think you are right but I don't agree with you I certainly hope it was just derma + EGF.
debris has 1 Personal Journal(s). Click here to view
debris is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Sceptic
05.07.2008, 13:57
@ TAGOHL
|
cal, for follica and FDA |
» They
» patented a procedure which includes dermabrasion + EGF inhibitors, and
» that's clearly what they are going to use. It's what produces the hair
» growth. What Follica HASN'T specified in full detail (it's ambiguous in the
» patent) are things like depth and size of abrasion, length of drug
» application, additional drugs like minox, etc.
IMHO, if follica is basically dermabrasion + EGF inhibitors, then it will be a joke, I hope there is something more, but I doubt it; not to mention that playing with growth factors is very dangerous if you don't know very well what you are doing.
Sceptic is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
debris
05.07.2008, 13:25
(edited by debris, 05.07.2008, 13:55)
@ TAGOHL
|
cal, for follica and FDA |
I think I'd repeat my point.
The only way you could persuade me that it is not going to happen my way is that you'd show me a clear way how FOLLICA and their investors and no one else could make money from dermabrasion + offlabel use of already existing drug and how they could prevent others from stealing this money off of them and performing the procedure themselves. I think this is the major concern. Patenting a procedure is not enough, anyone can start claiming well I just did dermabrassion, patient did not tell me he's on EGF inhibitors!! For these quite obvious reasons, patent for a procedure like that is practically not enforcable by law. Whether if your procedure involves a drug that only you can license anyone to manufacture, you are much better off. If someone starts manufacturing it and selling it without the license, customs could identify and get him in no time. And if you sue them, you are very likely to easily win.
Procedure is hard to control, you hardly can count how many of these were performed. You just dunno, alll you know for sure is that significant amount of money goes to someone else because he does it himself. Its easy to find excuses and hard to convince anyone that he actually performed the procedure. They could claim anything, even stupid excuses that it just grew on its own would probably be pretty hard to dismiss.
Whether if you have your little beautiful proprietary molecule, then no one can manufacture it for medical purposes without a license, you know how many doses were manufactured and that pretty much translates to the amount of procedures performed. You can control the price of it through your licensing fees. You have great control, and easy ways how to prevent anyone from stealing from you.
Completely different topic is that the patent they issued is probably well written. I seriously doubt that it will be just straightforward EGF inhibition + dermabrasion. Though this is another possible reason to go with their own drug, its not so important as the investors reason.
BTW Anyone already found a potent and easily obtainable EGF inhibitor so we could try it ourselves? If that does not work, then its proved that they will research their own drug coctail. This means we should know if I was wrong in quite short time.
debris has 1 Personal Journal(s). Click here to view
debris is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
TAGOHL
05.07.2008, 12:33
@ debris
|
cal, for follica and FDA |
»» What 'trial money'?
»
» You think they do it for free?
Aside from processing fees, this isn't pay-for-approval.
» Yes they have. Thats good for patients, bad for investors. Investors rule
» patients.
Huh? It's great for investors. New drugs cost a FORTUNE and many YEARS of time. What investor wants to pay and wait for all that?
» This does not mean that follica will just start doing dermabrasion + EGF
» inhibition.
Did you read the patent? Why am I arguing with a clueless dork? They patented a procedure which includes dermabrasion + EGF inhibitors, and that's clearly what they are going to use. It's what produces the hair growth. What Follica HASN'T specified in full detail (it's ambiguous in the patent) are things like depth and size of abrasion, length of drug application, additional drugs like minox, etc.
» 1) They'd be fools if they did study that shows this works, anyone could
» copy it and start doing it and they could not prevent them from doing so,
Do you know what a patent is, son? I am sure they did their homework before investing millions of dollars in this. Their procedure will be protected. If someone wants to get creative and try to steal it, that will be for the courts to handle.
» dr's are doing dermabrasion and other pharmas are selling EGF inhibitors.
Which is the point -- Follica is not going to create new drugs for this.
» Yes, IND is to start trials. What is so weird on it?
WTF? Um, because they are starting human trials around now, BEFORE the IND?
Follica just received a round of funding for the purpose of human trials, and they stated they are soon starting those trials. They stated they are using already approved drugs, too. Why don't you get a clue?
» I'm aware of of label uses, but its not primary way how pharmas do
» business and make money.
They make significant amount of money from off-label use of drugs. A while back, I posted an article about this.
» Also Off label would mean, that the drug would be being manufactured &
» sold by some other pharma, so some other pharma would be making money on
» it, not follica.
Follica does not make drugs. Follica will not be marketing drugs. I am sure that the cost of the drugs (plus any mark-ups) will be factored into to the cost of the procedure. BTW, pharmacies don't make drugs, but they make money selling them.
TAGOHL is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
debris
05.07.2008, 08:43
(edited by debris, 05.07.2008, 09:25)
@ debris
|
cal, for follica and FDA |
So I have tried to find out the fee amount that goes to FDA and although I've found that the fees do exist (what a surprise!! I do not think any of you seriously thought they do it for free, did you? ), I was not able to find the fee amount.
What I was able to dig up is the total yearly drug application fee revenues. They are quite high (around $455,000,000.00 in 2007) though its not so high as I would have expected. So it may be true that financially FDA is not too interested in a single trial. And that point can be removed.
debris has 1 Personal Journal(s). Click here to view
debris is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
debris
05.07.2008, 07:52
@ rev
|
cal, for follica and FDA |
rev: I'm not a lawyer and definately do not know much about american government so you may be right, though it would be a bit non american if there was an agency who'se purpose was not to make money. Though as I said you may be right so I assume you are.
debris has 1 Personal Journal(s). Click here to view
debris is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
rev
your nightmares,
05.07.2008, 06:11
@ debris
|
cal, for follica and FDA |
» » » a) FDA will want the trial money
» »
» » What 'trial money'?
»
» You think they do it for free? Come on. you must have already heard of it
» Its called capitalism. By the same means us federal reserve bank makes
» money and is far from us, or federal. It's privately held and their goal is
» to make money. FDA is no diferent.
I call BULLSHTT on that comment. Application fees are one thing, but the FDA + profit models = a major conflict of interest to public health / lawsuit. Moreso, the FDA is not privately held. It's an agency within the Department of Health and Human Services.
I think your comments overstepped your chronic pessimism this time (I didn't think it was possible, but here we are). You cut into us for speculating the Follica concept (fair enough), but you're doing the same with the FDA. That goes beyond speculation; that's hypocrisy.
.
rev is located in YOUR NIGHTMARES and he is available to meet: NO ---
InterCytex –noun
a place where good ideas go to die.
Follica –noun
a clandestine organization that puts the C.I.A to shame.
Ken Washenik, MD, PhD –noun
inventor of the world famous "5 year" timeline |
debris
05.07.2008, 01:39
(edited by debris, 05.07.2008, 02:01)
@ TAGOHL
|
cal, for follica and FDA |
» » My opinion is, yes it will need trials. Reasons are:
»
» They may go through trials, but not for the goofy reasons you mention.
»
» » a) FDA will want the trial money
»
» What 'trial money'?
You think they do it for free? Come on. you must have already heard of it Its called capitalism. By the same means us federal reserve bank makes money and is far from us, or federal. It's privately held and their goal is to make money. FDA is no diferent.
»
» » c) Folica will use more then just aproved drugs
»
» Follica has stated publicly that they are using ALREADY approved drugs.
» Developing brand new drugs for this is retarded.
»
Yes they have. Thats good for patients, bad for investors. Investors rule patients.
» » d) Investors will want a procedure that is exclusive and hard to copy
» » without being easily prosecuted by law
»
» EGF inhibitors are already on the market, as are dermabrasion tehcniques.
»
This does not mean that follica will just start doing dermabrasion + EGF inhibition.
1) They'd be fools if they did study that shows this works, anyone could copy it and start doing it and they could not prevent them from doing so, dr's are doing dermabrasion and other pharmas are selling EGF inhibitors. Realisticaly, Where's follicas money in here? They won't do anything that does not give them monopoly on the procedure. Thats certain. No investor will fund anything that wont include their very own drugs. No investor will fund research on something that other pharmas manufacture and sell and that docs would use off label. Why? Because there is no money in it for the investor.
2) it will not be so simple imho, that means, this will not work miracles so they will try harder, but here I may be wrong. All in all point 1) is relevant.
» » f) The follica estimate of 3 years to IND suggests
»
» No, the article's estimate. In fact, the person who wrote the article is
» confused. INDs come before trials, not after.
»
Yes, IND is to start trials. What is so weird on it? If their phase of development is discovery, 3 years for IND so they could start trials sounds perfectly reasonable. And all evidence suggests that they are really just in that discovery phase.
» » g) Its logical. how many untrialed procedures or
» » drugs are being done by doctors?
»
» Are you kidding? Drugs are used all the time by docs for conditions
» unrelated to what they were approved for. It's called off-label use.
I'm aware of of label uses, but its not primary way how pharmas do business and make money. If you want to be serious and get your product to get to many patients you need trials.
Also Off label would mean, that the drug would be being manufactured & sold by some other pharma, so some other pharma would be making money on it, not follica. Its much harder for them to prevent drs from doing dermabrasion, then to develop and exclusively manufacture a precisely phased drug coctail that is needed for the procedure and that they only have license to manufacture & sell.
==================================================================
Its either the guys who do wounding + WNT / EGF experiments will succeed soon (and so far they haven't provided any pics so its safe to assume it somehow works, but not too great) or waiting for follica will be pretty long.
The only real immediate hope is that someone on some of the hl forums will try the EGF inhibition + wounding and it will just work miracles.
==================================================================
debris has 1 Personal Journal(s). Click here to view
debris is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
TAGOHL
04.07.2008, 23:52
@ debris
|
cal, for follica and FDA |
» My opinion is, yes it will need trials. Reasons are:
They may go through trials, but not for the goofy reasons you mention.
» a) FDA will want the trial money
What 'trial money'?
» c) Folica will use more then just aproved drugs
Follica has stated publicly that they are using ALREADY approved drugs. Developing brand new drugs for this is retarded.
» d) Investors will want a procedure that is exclusive and hard to copy
» without being easily prosecuted by law
EGF inhibitors are already on the market, as are dermabrasion tehcniques.
» f) The follica estimate of 3 years to IND suggests
No, the article's estimate. In fact, the person who wrote the article is confused. INDs come before trials, not after.
» g) Its logical. how many untrialed procedures or
» drugs are being done by doctors?
Are you kidding? Drugs are used all the time by docs for conditions unrelated to what they were approved for. It's called off-label use.
TAGOHL is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Amilcar
04.07.2008, 20:58
@ cal
|
RIGHT |
Morality of the story : we will be fixed about Follica and Acell in 6 months at max.
Amilcar is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
cal
04.07.2008, 19:01
@ debris
|
RIGHT |
Well, like I've said before, I see no automatic reason to assume that any early/simple Folica method will produce mediocre results.
The previous HM schemes have been mechanically doing something to every single follicle. Either literally working on every follicle individually, or else something pretty close to that situation using TONS of injections. No wonder they had inconsistent growth. It's like trying to plant grass in your backyard one seed at a time.
With Folica, either the drugs and wounding is enough to cause the growth or it isn't. I see no reason to assume that there will be a major hit or miss result from follicle to follicle. Especially if the drugs are taken interally.
I suspect that either the Folica hairs will all come back strong, or they'll all come back weak. And even if they're weak, several passes may totally fix that.
cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
debris
04.07.2008, 17:11
(edited by debris, 04.07.2008, 17:17)
@ cal
|
RIGHT |
I think you are right that we all will see pretty soon if the basic cheap follica works well or not.
Unfortunately so far, it looks like the coverage the ppl get is way far from anything that could help Travis.
There is still some chance that ppl will find some miracle drug combination. But It certainly is more likely that wounding will stop being hot topic in few monts from now on. The same way other promising things ended. Of course some ppl will keep doing it, but some ppl use ZIX as well, and it obviously does not mean that it would be any miracle cure.
We all know that it can be done. This is imho significant. The photo of the guy was pretty cool actually. I hope it was not fake or something stupid like "patient did not want to mention HT to his hot cancer female doctor".
I think the hair looked weak and different enough to assume it really was not HT. This brings us to the fact that maybe after a lot of tries someone will find the combination that works.
All in all, if travis tried to do something for himself now, he surely would not get hurt. Home made folica procedure (if it ever will work) will work for him even if he already goes through some repaair job in the mean time.
And if the home made tests fail, he can at least benefit from the fact he did not waste another 5 years doing nothing.
Really Travis, how bad your situation is?
debris has 1 Personal Journal(s). Click here to view
debris is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
cal
04.07.2008, 16:47
@ Amilcar
|
RIGHT |
MPB is right about Folica's future if it works.
People complaining about how Folica will have to do 10 years of trials - many of us are just more committed than that. What this method really requires is several hundred bucks, a mailing address, a credit card #, and a local dermatologist. That's it.
Look at the cost, recovery, growout time, and relative benefit ratio next to any kind of conventional HT. Do you want your hair back or not? I do.
As for long term risks with an unapproved method, I agree it's an issue.
But ask yourself whether any "legitimate" method from Folica will really be a guarantee of any improvment. They might spend 6 years approving the stuff, but they still won't really know the decades-long risk much better than anyone does right now. The FDA won't really make them find out, the FDA will just make the method carry a warning about unknown long-term risks. (Same with Finasteride, and I think that kind of hormone manipulation in young men has a hell of a lot more likelyhood of long term damage than Folica's deal does.)
cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Amilcar
04.07.2008, 09:19
@ AJ
|
RIGHT |
» And don't forget Bosley has an exclusive option to negotiate an agreement
» with Intercytex at the end of Phase II (not sure when that is officially).
» If they don't sign an agreement, that will say a lot about Intercytex.
Thats Right, Bosley is surely way better informed than us, and do have, for sure, behind the scences secret communication channels with Intercytex. Therefore they are in a unique position to judge the situation of Intercytex technology. In other words if Intercytex comes to resolve the Chinese maze of multiplying hair-inducing Dermal papillas they will know about it before anybody else and sign without delay.
Amilcar is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Amilcar
04.07.2008, 09:05
@ debris
|
No Debris, Travis should wait a bit more |
» Travis: I say, fck it. Go and send your pics to Hairsite now. Start
» freaking doing something about your situation finaly!
I dont think so Debris, Travis should wait few more months to see what comes from Acell. If not for the hair growth that would be for the scar healing.
Amilcar is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
MPB
04.07.2008, 08:01
@ debris
|
Cal, MPB, Debris, Benji & JTR |
» My advice is to focus on existing solutions.
»
» I dont know how badly butchered you are. Try contacting Hairsite. Really
» consider body hair transplants or a hair system.
»
A lot of people shoot down this idea but depending on what kind of damage you have, specifically a bad strip scar, you can get somewhat decent coverage using BHT depending, of course, on the quality of your body hair. I did that for my strip scar an although it isn't perfect, it did help to some extent. I hated feeling that bald skin and terrible "itching" that went with it. Hair systems? Again it is a replacement for a ball-cap for me since I don't have the luxury of wearing one in the professional environment I work at. I know it can be a burden, but people have learned to adapt on more serious matters.
My take on Follica. The patent is out there. There are people right now trying all kinds of different applications mentioned in the patent. Odds are pretty soon someone will hit the mark. This should be enough incentive for Follica to get their arse in gear and get something to market pronto... before all these so called hair "junkies" steal their limelight. Black markets exist all over the place and since the Follica approach is relatively inexpensive to replicate, the guinea pigs will be out in full force. Hell maybe it will take 3-5 yrs for Follica to come to market, but I believe results will be substantiated from their protocol long before this.
MPB has 1 Personal Journal(s). Click here to view
MPB is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
debris
04.07.2008, 03:06
(edited by debris, 04.07.2008, 04:59)
@ omgIamBald
|
cal, for follica and FDA |
» simply does follica have to go through FDA?
»
» if it does, it's gonna suck..
»
» it will take at least 7 years..
»
»
well opinions vary. But realistically, we have seen an investors article (a summary of what company does and whats their goal and expectations targeted to venture capitalists) where they clearly state that they will need 3 years for IND.
This suggests that they are currently in a phase of discovery. Now they will do much more work to find out candidate drugs then they will fill IND, and start human what? TRIALS!.
My opinion is, yes it will need trials. Reasons are:
a) FDA will want the trial money
b) FDA will be concerned about potential unwanted growth and safety
c) Folica will use more then just aproved drugs (both to reach the effectiveness they want in mpb scal, and also to protect themselves, they will not develop a technique that any junkie can copy and use, so its probable that they will try to chuck in an important component that they can patent and exclusively manufacture & control)
d) Investors will want a procedure that is exclusive and hard to copy without being easily prosecuted by law
e) Currently whole folica thing is hyped for sure. What we heard from media is at least 100% better then reality. Thats how mass media works when it comes to breakthroughs.
f) The follica estimate of 3 years to IND suggests that they do plan to go through trials and further supports the hypothesis, that their stage of development is "early discovery" and probably plan to gather more safety data and formulate a candidate drug and then fill in IND so they can go through trials
g) Its logical. If you dismis gray market drugs (and follica for sure will not want to participate in a gray market) how many untrialed procedures or drugs are being done by doctors? Even freaking rogaine foam had a trial even though the drug is exactly the same as in rogaine minoxidil solution which already was aproved for the same indication.
In fact, I'm quite certain that it will need trials. Willing to take a stake if anyone was interested.
Of course there is some probability that the 3 years to IND was a press error and they meant 3 years to "lets give all full head of hair". But this surely sounds a bit utopistic to anyone old enough to be reading these forums for more then few years. It does not work like that. Human trials take ages and most of them fail even though all companies do absolute maximum to ensure it would work at pre clinical stages in order to save themselves from wasting hundreds of millions on human trials for a drug that fails.
debris has 1 Personal Journal(s). Click here to view
debris is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
debris
04.07.2008, 02:27
@ cal
|
TRC |
» ICX is commercially dying.
»
» Aderans has never shown us anything to start with.
»
» Dr Gho is still trying, but he's working with a lone candle in the dark
» and he needs a floodlight.
»
» Dr Armani says he's working on something, but personally I suspect that
» comment is just buying time to keep selling aggressive transplants.
»
»
»
»
» Folica or bust. That's what it really boils down to.
If you limit yourself to 5 years from now on, what you said means that there wont be anything new in that time. Certainly not anything even close so it could be a viable option for a serious repair job.
I'd say, fairly biggest chance is that the wounding + acell or gefinitib will start to work for someone on some web forums. Though, if none of the guys shows pictures in the next few months, the chances of it working will be pretty low.
Really guys, you must be nuts if you believe that follica or someone will save this guys head in just few years. How many times you were hoping before and how many times it turned out to first long series of delays then excuses and then disapointment?
Travis: I say, fck it. Go and send your pics to Hairsite now. Start freaking doing something about your situation finaly!
debris has 1 Personal Journal(s). Click here to view
debris is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
omgIamBald
04.07.2008, 02:24
@ cal
|
cal, for follica and FDA |
simply does follica have to go through FDA?
if it does, it's gonna suck..
it will take at least 7 years..
» ICX is commercially dying.
»
» Aderans has never shown us anything to start with.
»
» Dr Gho is still trying, but he's working with a lone candle in the dark
» and he needs a floodlight.
»
» Dr Armani says he's working on something, but personally I suspect that
» comment is just buying time to keep selling aggressive transplants.
»
»
»
»
» Folica or bust. That's what it really boils down to.
omgIamBald is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
cal
04.07.2008, 00:04
@ AJ
|
TRC |
ICX is commercially dying.
Aderans has never shown us anything to start with.
Dr Gho is still trying, but he's working with a lone candle in the dark and he needs a floodlight.
Dr Armani says he's working on something, but personally I suspect that comment is just buying time to keep selling aggressive transplants.
Folica or bust. That's what it really boils down to.
cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
AJ
03.07.2008, 22:26
@ benji
|
TRC |
And don't forget Bosley has an exclusive option to negotiate an agreement with Intercytex at the end of Phase II (not sure when that is officially). If they don't sign an agreement, that will say a lot about Intercytex.
AJ is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
benji
03.07.2008, 19:38
@ Travis Bickle
|
TRC |
» I am so conflicted about ICX.... Desperation is a bad thing.
» Maybe, MAYBE this pre-stimulation of the scalp is giving them the results
» they had hoped for? Maybe this is the key to providing great For all we know the prestimulation is only abrasion and nothing else, they dont say» »
Their website states, “All 19 subjects in the trial have now been treated
» using a range of injection and scalp pre-stimulation techniques”
» Maybe it has taken them this long to work out what injection method works
» best with a certain pre stimulation technique? Maybe they have finally
» found the right combination & in September they will have good news ? Maybe
» not ? I don’t know. Maybe these results will encourage them to conduct
» more trials themselves? The one thing we DO KNOW FOR CERTAIN is that they are looking for some entitity to step in and pay them to do any more research or to buy the research info they already have. They intend to not research it any furhter unless someone else pays for it.
They are only human, it’s natural to become
» disillusioned. If they see that they have made a break through & the finish
» line is insight, they might get a second wind & keep on going ? (Damn this
» sounds pathetic) They need money for this.............and their stock price has been going down. Unless the third cohort have "wow" growth, and ICX publishes some photos of before-and-after pictures in the media that get would-be investors very excited, I cant see folks lining up to invest personally. »
» On a sad note,they removed the paragraph from their website that mentioned
» a date for manufacturing this product.Who knows ? At one time they talked of a "small scale commercialization sometime in 2008". A lot of us now feel really mislead by that verbiage because they have now stated that they will only keep working on TRC if some other entity pays them to do so. This is not a sign of a company that thinks theyve come up with a good solution to baldness to most. It sounds like they are growing "some" hair, but not nearly enough to market it as a real cure. New hair thickness that is equivalent to what a man has on his forearm isn't going to get it, and they know that. To be honest, I'd be happy if they were just growing that much, so someone might be able to get multiple sessions over several years........
Follica is in my mind, the best chance for something near-term.
benji is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
topcat611
03.07.2008, 17:59
@ Travis Bickle
|
TRC |
I wouldn't lose hope, medical technology is accelerating at a very fast pace. It could be the cure comes from a country like Germany or China where regulations are not as tough.
Your situation can't be any worse then my own. Get a good concealer and get on with your life. I would be curious to know who butchered you, as I am possibly seeking to remedy my current situation as best I can and definitely don't want to make the mistake of choosing the wrong clinic.
Your rant on the ht board was right on. 95% of hairtransplants look like crap and are easily picked out of a crowd. The see through hair is a dead give away along with patients that were seriously disfigured.
email me at htrepair1@yahoo.com
topcat611 has 1 Personal Journal(s). Click here to view
topcat611 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO ---
I am not a HT doctor, I am a HT victim.
http://hairsite.com/serendipity/authors/19-Topcat611 |
Travis Bickle
Post strip surgery HELL,
03.07.2008, 17:12
@ benji
|
Follica |
I don’t dismiss FOLLCIA,I just think it’s pointless to talk about Follica when they don’t even know when the human trials will begin.I hope with all my heart that it works because i am losing my mind.I have gotten to the stage where suicide is a real option.
People here where so convinced that ICX would work,there was 1 thread after the other & everyone was certain we were saved.Based on what I had read here I was convinced that I would get my life back.I cannot explain to you how bitterly disappointed I was when it failed.I almost cried.To be honest with you,as childish as this sounds,I was really bitter at some of the guys here for raising my hopes. Maybe others here can relate to my emotions?
I see the same thing happening with Follica & that frightens me.Everyone has forgotten how certain they were that ICX were the solution & now they are praising Follica the same way.I don’t want to put myself through that rollercoaster ride of emotions again.
I guess i will have to wait & see what happens just like everybody else.
Travis Bickle is located in POST STRIP SURGERY HELL and he is available to meet: NO ---
It’s only after a bald man is butchered by a strip surgeon that he realises that there is nothing wrong with being bald.
It’s better to be naturally bald then disfigured. |
Travis Bickle
Post strip surgery HELL,
03.07.2008, 17:02
@ Max
|
TRC |
I am so conflicted about ICX.... Desperation is a bad thing.
Maybe, MAYBE this pre-stimulation of the scalp is giving them the results they had hoped for? Maybe this is the key to providing great results? Who knows, maybe they will come out in September & say, “We have finally got it right”
Their website states, “All 19 subjects in the trial have now been treated using a range of injection and scalp pre-stimulation techniques”
Maybe it has taken them this long to work out what injection method works best with a certain pre stimulation technique? Maybe they have finally found the right combination & in September they will have good news ? Maybe not ? I don’t know. Maybe these results will encourage them to conduct more trials themselves? They are only human, it’s natural to become disillusioned. If they see that they have made a break through & the finish line is insight, they might get a second wind & keep on going ? (Damn this sounds pathetic)
On a sad note,they removed the paragraph from their website that mentioned a date for manufacturing this product.Who knows ?
Travis Bickle is located in POST STRIP SURGERY HELL and he is available to meet: NO ---
It’s only after a bald man is butchered by a strip surgeon that he realises that there is nothing wrong with being bald.
It’s better to be naturally bald then disfigured. |
Max
03.07.2008, 08:17
@ BALDIE42
|
TRC - lets hope the get a partner and start trial 3. |
» » The new update is in September, let's see if they start Trial 3
»
» They are not starting trial 3 unless they have got a partner by then,lets
» hope the get a partner and start trial 3.
As I see it, is our only hope TRC for the closest 3 years.Whats aboute Follica.I see nothing,perhaps a mouse in the Laboratory
The market is so big,they must get a partner
Max is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
BALDIE42
Uk,
03.07.2008, 07:45
@ Max
|
TRC - lets hope the get a partner and start trial 3. |
» The new update is in September, let's see if they start Trial 3
They are not starting trial 3 unless they have got a partner by then,lets hope the get a partner and start trial 3.
BALDIE42 is located in UK and he is available to meet: NO |
Max
03.07.2008, 06:41
@ cal
|
TRC |
The new update is in September, let's see if they start Trial 3
Max is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
cal
02.07.2008, 16:07
@ debris
|
Cal, MPB, Debris, Benji & JTR |
If Folica works, it won't take us 5 years to find out. Probably not even two.
cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
debris
02.07.2008, 14:48
@ Travis Bickle
|
Cal, MPB, Debris, Benji & JTR |
My advice is to focus on existing solutions.
I dont know how badly butchered you are. Try contacting Hairsite. Really consider body hair transplants or a hair system.
I know it sux, but its better to do something about your suffering now rather then suffer another 10 years and then find out that nothing has changed that again we are 5 years away.
debris has 1 Personal Journal(s). Click here to view
debris is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
cal
02.07.2008, 13:39
@ benji
|
Cal, MPB, Debris, Benji & JTR |
If it works and somebody gets it done, they'll probably be surprised at the lengths that a small number of men will go to in pursuing it.
cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
benji
02.07.2008, 12:14
@ Travis Bickle
|
Cal, MPB, Debris, Benji & JTR |
»
» I think it is completely pointless to talk about Follica as they don’t
» even know when human trials will begin. Well, sorry but some of us like talking about Follica and will continue to do so. Feel free to ignore us and dont even look at threads that are follica related if they annoy you. There are posters here who annoy me, but I just ignore them.
»
» Even though I have pretty much dismissed the dream that ICX will give me
» my life back,they are the only people offering a solution that can be
» available to the public anytime soon.Actually Follica and ACELL are two other viable possibilities to do this. In fact, since ICX and Aderans have been workign on HM since about 2002, but still dont have a working protocol ready to sell yet, it would seem that the later two companies might have a much better chance. You haven't seen NBC news willing to do stories on ICX or Aderans yet have you? Probably because the medical editor wouldn't approve of the stories after researching them, as they just haven't presented enough evidence to be worthy of a story yet.
Like I said before,I am really down &
» am desperate for anything that will help me.Can it be that ICX-TRC can
» regrow hairs,just not to the level they had hoped? That is very likely to be the case. They have grown some hairs, but not nearly enough. If they were growing chia pets on men's heads, you would have seen pictures of men with new hair by now. Maybe it can grow 30-40
» hairs/cm2? I'd be happy if it was doing that much, one could just get the procedure done yearly to increase results hopefully. I would be very happy with that result as I could cover my
» scars.Do you think they would still be willing to release a product that
» wont cover your head but offer some coverage at least? I dont know if there is enough market potential for something that just gave you "comb over" results for them to spend enough money for a phase three FDA trial to justify it, even though I wish they would market a product that gave "comb over" results so one could hopefully just get it done again and again over the years to increase the results myself. »
» Also,what do you think about Farjo’s comments in regards to combining DP
» cells with keratin? My donor area has pretty much been destroyed.I would be
» willing to undergo a traditional HTP with hairs that were grown outside of
» my body. This is the best observation you have made in my opinion. Aderans is supposedly working on just this scenario. They are supposedly using tissue matrices to grow proto-hairs from dermal papilla cells and other cells for re-implantation back into the body later. Obviously they weren't having the success they were hoping for with the straight cellular injections into the body as they had hoped to and this is why its taking so much longer. Will they have success? I dont know. I hope they do. I hope they ALL do. I want patten baldness defeated for all humanity. It is certainly a better solution than this ridiculous body hair
» transplants. Body hair transplants haven't worked out like I had hoped. They just cant be placed as closely togehter as we would like, and not everybody's body hair takes on longer growth phases. The hair also doesn't get wider with diameter when placed up there even with the greater blood supply. However, a few really badly scarred men have had some success with them and Im happy some of those guys got their lives back, and Im glad some doctors were willing to try it. In my opinion, only men with very hair bodies with very large body hairs would have a chance at having acceptable coverage with body hair as matter of routine. Even then, its still a whale of a time/m monetary commitment. I have to consider this scenario for people like yourself though...............lets say follica in the MPB area just doesn't work well or just makes more MPB hair that only last a couple of years, but abrading the chest or face could make alot more body or beard hair for a man who has thick chest hair or a mega-beard...........just perhaps some of these men could be helped by "making" more body hair to be used "up there". Its certainly not the elegant solution I want for humanity, but I would like to see the scarred guys in particular get coverage as the buzz is out of the question for the really badly scarred at this point. Maybe ACELL will be able to do something for that scarring down the line though. Im not quick to look down on any possibility for prematurely balding, hurting, scarred up men as you can probably tell. We could have an endless amount of scalp hair to cover our
» heads. Everyone could have tens of thousands of grafts transplanted into
» their scalp. This to me seems to be the most realistic solution to our
» problems. Yep, that would be great. It's not what we have all hoped for but it’s better than hiding
» under a baseball cap. (Or a wig, even worse).I wonder if ICX has been trialling this as well or if
» they have just been focusing on injecting the scalp with cells? What do you
» know about this overlooked option ? |
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