benji
05.07.2008, 15:37 |
follica patent in a paragraph (Hair Multiplication & Research) |
Quote:
The invention further features a kit including a composition formulated for topical administration including (i) a small molecule EGFR inhibitor selected from leflunomide, gefitinib, erlotinib, lapatinib, canertinib, vandetanib, CL-387785, PKI166, pelitinib, HKI-272, and HKI-357; and (ii) an additional biologically active agent selected from an antihistamine, an anti-inflammatory, a retinoid, an anti-androgen, an immunosuppressant, a channel opener, an antibiotic, and an antimicrobial. In one embodiment, the small molecule EGFR inhibitor is gefitinib or erlotinib and the additional biologically active agent is a channel opener selected from minoxidil, diazoxide, and phenytoin.
Time related stuff from the patent:
Quote:
for applying the composition to the skin of a subject once or twice daily, for applying the composition to the skin of a subject for at least 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, or even 10 consecutive days, for administering the composition during the night, or administering the composition during the day. The invention features a method for generating a hair follicle or stimulating a hair growth on the skin of a subject by (i) disrupting the skin of the subject (for example, resulting in the induction of reepithelialization of the skin of the subject) and (ii) contacting the cells of the skin with a small molecule EGFR inhibitor, or a metabolite thereof, in an amount sufficient to generate hair follicles or stimulate hair growth on the skin. In certain embodiments, step (a) is performed less than two weeks, 10 days, 8 days, 5 days, or even 3 days prior to step (b). In other embodiments, step (a) is performed simultaneous with, or more than one day, two days, 3 days or one week after step (b).
The very simpleist embodiment of the patent:
Quote:
In a particular embodiment of the methods, kits, and compositions of the invention, the EGFR inhibitor is administered, formulated, or is part of a kit with an anti-androgen (e.g., finasteride ) and a channel opener (e.g., minoxidil).
In still another embodiment of the methods, kits, and compositions of the invention, the topical formulation is a cream, lotion, stick, ointment, gel, spray, foam, patch, aerosol, wound dressing, or drop.
Quote:
The disruption of the epidermis can be induced between 3-12 days (e.g., 4-12, 5-12, 4-11, 6-11, 6-10, 6-9, 7-8, 5-11, 5-10, or 7-10 days) prior to the addition of the compositions of the invention.
Any of the above-described methods may be used to remove a precise amount of epidermal tissue. For example, the methods of abrasion described herein may be used to achieve:
• Removal of the stratum comeum through removal of the first 10-30 μm of dead skin cells.
I'd like to add an editorial note here..................3 days after wouding, or better yet 4, is likely when the skin will have re-epilithialized unless you took off more than the stratum cornelium in a human being. Hair germs were detected in human skin on the SCID mice at day 7. We heal quicker than mice do. So, on about day 4 or 5, one can probably feel reasonably safe to use the egf blocker and minox. One can be on finas for the entire time........
Most important example in the patent:
Quote:
Example 7: EDIHN induces new hair follicles in human skin. Grafting. Discarded human adult scalp from the preauricular area obtained from plastic surgery was grafted onto immunodeficient (scid) mice. The graft was bandaged and allowed to heal, then was used in the wound healing study 3 months after grafting.
Results: To determine whether human skin responded to EDIHN as did mouse skin, human skin was grafted onto SCID (immuno-defϊcient) mice and subjected to depilation by plucking and wound induction three days later. Seven days following wound induction, formation of new HF was observed in the human skin (Figure 2 IA; arrows indicate new HF) by hematoxylin and eosin staining of paraffin embedded tissue sections.
In additional experiments, adult human skin was grafted onto mice, abraded, and examined at 7 days post-abrasion. New HF were generated in the human skin, which mimicked normal hair follicle formation during fetal development, as evidenced by staining for S100A6 or S100A4 (Figure 21B).
The results of this Example show that EDIHN can be used to generate hair growth in human skin as for mouse skin
benji is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Amilcar
05.07.2008, 16:32
@ benji
|
benji |
» Quote:
» The invention further features a kit including a composition formulated
» for topical administration including (i) a small molecule EGFR inhibitor
» selected from leflunomide, gefitinib, erlotinib, lapatinib, canertinib,
» vandetanib, CL-387785, PKI166, pelitinib, HKI-272, and HKI-357; and (ii)
» an additional biologically active agent selected from an antihistamine, an
» anti-inflammatory, a retinoid, an anti-androgen, an immunosuppressant, a
» channel opener, an antibiotic, and an antimicrobial.
whats the point of using an anti androgen ?
Do you think the antibiotic and antimicrobial are here only for safety reasons ?
In one embodiment,
» the small molecule EGFR inhibitor is gefitinib or erlotinib and the
» additional biologically active agent is a channel opener selected from
» minoxidil, diazoxide, and phenytoin.
»
»
»
»
»
»
»
» Time related stuff from the patent:
»
»
» Quote:
» for applying the composition to the skin of a subject once or twice daily,
» for applying the composition to the skin of a subject for at least 2, 3,
» 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, or even 10 consecutive days, for administering the
» composition during the night, or administering the composition during the
» day. The invention features a method for generating a hair follicle or
» stimulating a hair growth on the skin of a subject by (i) disrupting the
» skin of the subject (for example, resulting in the induction of
» reepithelialization of the skin of the subject) and (ii) contacting the
» cells of the skin with a small molecule EGFR inhibitor, or a metabolite
» thereof, in an amount sufficient to generate hair follicles or
» stimulate hair growth on the skin. In certain embodiments, step (a) is
» performed less than two weeks, 10 days, 8 days, 5 days, or even 3 days
» prior to step (b). In other embodiments, step (a) is performed
» simultaneous with, or more than one day, two days, 3 days or one week after
» step (b).
»
Step (a) is (i) the disrupting and step(b) is (ii) the EGFR inhibition or what ?
»
»
»
»
»
»
» The very simpleist embodiment of the patent:
»
» Quote:
» In a particular embodiment of the methods, kits, and compositions of the
» invention, the EGFR inhibitor is administered, formulated,
» or is part of a kit with an anti-androgen (e.g., finasteride ) and a
» channel opener (e.g., minoxidil).
»
» In still another embodiment of the methods, kits, and compositions of the
» invention, the topical formulation is a cream, lotion, stick, ointment,
» gel, spray, foam, patch, aerosol, wound dressing, or drop.
»
»
»
»
»
»
»
» Quote:
» The disruption of the epidermis can be induced between 3-12 days
» (e.g., 4-12, 5-12, 4-11, 6-11, 6-10, 6-9, 7-8, 5-11, 5-10, or 7-10
» days) prior to the addition of the compositions of the invention.
»
ALL these are possible durations for the disrupting process with lower and higher bounds ?
» Any of the above-described methods may be used to remove a precise amount
» of epidermal tissue. For example, the methods of abrasion described herein
» may be used to achieve:
»
» • Removal of the stratum comeum through removal of the first 10-30
» μm of dead skin cells.
»
Could not read that level of disrupting in-depth ? how much ?
»
» I'd like to add an editorial note here..................3 days after
» wouding, or better yet 4, is likely when the skin will have
» re-epilithialized unless you took off more than the stratum cornelium in a
» human being. Hair germs were detected in human skin on the SCID mice at day
» 7. We heal quicker than mice do. So, on about day 4 or 5, one can probably
» feel reasonably safe to use the egf blocker and minox. One can be on finas
» for the entire time........
»
3 days or 4 through which you just do nothing ?
»
»
» Most important example in the patent:
»
» Quote:
» Example 7: EDIHN induces new hair follicles in human
» skin. Grafting. Discarded human adult scalp from the
» preauricular area obtained from plastic surgery was grafted onto
» immunodeficient (scid) mice. The graft was bandaged and allowed to heal,
» then was used in the wound healing study 3 months after grafting.
»
EDHN must stand for the whole process of disrupting+ EGFR yet I could not figure it out ? what does it stand for ?
» Results: To determine whether human skin responded to EDIHN as did mouse
» skin, human skin was grafted onto SCID (immuno-defϊcient) mice and
» subjected to depilation by plucking and wound induction three days later.
» Seven days following wound induction, formation of new HF was observed
» in the human skin (Figure 2 IA; arrows indicate new HF) by hematoxylin
» and eosin staining of paraffin embedded tissue sections.
THE last sentence about the hematoxylin..eosin to the end...Are t hey talking about the markers they used to show the new HFs ?
»
» In additional experiments, adult human skin was grafted onto mice,
» abraded, and examined at 7 days post-abrasion. New HF were generated in the
» human skin, which mimicked normal hair follicle formation during fetal
» development, as evidenced by staining for S100A6 or S100A4 (Figure 21B).
»
Dont they say for how long they did the abrasion in those experimentations ?
Also can you give the links for those figures !
» The results of this Example show that EDIHN can be used to generate
» hair growth in human skin as for mouse skin
Best regards.
Amilcar is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO ---
Here is the future :
![[image]](http://www.monsterup.com/upload/1220481775.jpg) |
benji
05.07.2008, 17:00
@ Amilcar
|
benji |
Quote:
Example 7: EDIHN induces new hair follicles in human skin. Grafting. Discarded human adult scalp from the preauricular area obtained from plastic surgery was grafted onto immunodeficient (scid) mice. The graft was bandaged and allowed to heal, then was used in the wound healing study 3 months after grafting.
Results: To determine whether human skin responded to EDIHN as did mouse skin, human skin was grafted onto SCID (immuno-defϊcient) mice and subjected to depilation by plucking and wound induction three days later. Seven days following wound induction, formation of new HF was observed in the human skin (Figure 2 IA; arrows indicate new HF) by hematoxylin and eosin staining of paraffin embedded tissue sections.
In additional experiments, adult human skin was grafted onto mice, abraded, and examined at 7 days post-abrasion. New HF were generated in the human skin, which mimicked normal hair follicle formation during fetal development, as evidenced by staining for S100A6 or S100A4 (Figure 21B).
The results of this Example show that EDIHN can be used to generate hair growth in human skin as for mouse skin
read that experiment with HUMAN SKIN that grew HUMAN HAIR over and over and over and over Amilcar. There isn't any big mystery to what they intend to do.
"How long was dermabrasion performed?" ----ARE YOU KIDDING ME?????? Until the stratum conelium was removed, with a felt-wheeled instrument. Probably a less than 30 seconds
benji is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Amilcar
05.07.2008, 17:20
@ benji
|
benji |
Can you ,please, answer my questions one by one ?
In the experimentations they only talk about the disrupting, dont they talk about what EGFR inhibitor they used or for how long ?
There is no discussion here concerning the WNT pathways, how comes ?
Amilcar is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO ---
Here is the future :
|
benji
05.07.2008, 17:38
@ Amilcar
|
benji |
http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/fetch.jsp?SEARCH_IA=US2007020842&DBSELECT=PCT&C=10&TOTAL=5&IDB=0&TYPE_FIELD=256&SERVER_TYPE=19-10&QUERY=%28FP%2Fcotsarelis%29+&START=1&ELEMENT_SET=B&SORT=41240713-KEY&RESULT=1&DISP=25&FORM=SEP-0%2FHITNUM%2CB-ENG%2CDP%2CMC%2CAN%2CPA%2CABSUM-ENG&IDOC=1408926&IA=US2007020842&LANG=ENG&DISPLAY=DESC
Thats the follica kit patent. I suggest you read it. Lithium Chloride and wnt aren't even mentioned in this patent. They have probably found out that although these increase the amount and size of hairs, that they aren't necessary to grow it on human skin.............
http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?wo=2006105109&IA=WO2006105109&DISPLAY=DESC
that is the older follica patent, it has info about the usage of wnt7a or substitutes that can mimic it.
in the most basic expermient, they wounded human skin grafted onto a SCID mouse..............and seven days later hair germs were detected in wounded skin with no adjuvants needed. They have found that by blocking epidermal growth factor with drugs like getfitinib, that more (and probably larger) hair follicles form. They have also found that usage of minoxidil and finasteride or other anti-androgens, aid the environment in the abraded skin surface area to be more condusive to better results insosfar as new hair is concerned. They have also found that three days before abrading the skin, that plucking the hairs present in the area will put all of them in a new anagen phase at the time of the abrasion, and the growth signalls radiated off the anagen hairs seems to help the process make more new hair also.
Basically it looks like this...........depilate, wait three days, abrade, start the finasteride, wait three to five days (or at least until the skin re-epilithializes after the abrasion), then take the egf-inhbitor, and the minoxidil for several days (but less than ten days).................other things in the patent apparently help more hairs form, but in the most basic copyrighted form of the patent these three things (finas, egf-blocker, minox) are all they use after the abrasion. If it makes new hairs, I'd strongly recommend staying on the finasteride because they are made in mpb areas from the same stem cell lines..........
You really need to read through both of the patents though............
Example 7 in the patent is the one to focus on because it grew human hair on human skin.
benji is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Amilcar
05.07.2008, 17:56
@ benji
|
benji |
Thanks benji for your insights.
that hair depilation must be painful am I right ? did they talk about that depilation in the second patent the one in which they did not mention WNT pathways ? my point is the following : is it possible that they think that they can get the body to activate its WNT pathways through depilating the scalp hair (getting as much as possible hair into anagen phase) ? thus there is no need to mimic WNT through lithuim or similarities
» I'd strongly recommend staying on the finasteride because they are made in mpb
» areas from the same stem cell lines..........
Did you read their letter to Nature journal ? in the abstract they stated that completely new hair stem cells are generated from once simple epithelial cells (not belonging to the old stem cell lines), so may be your assumption that those are the same old stem cell lines and hence the de novo hair HF are androgen sensitive is arguable ?
Amilcar is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO ---
Here is the future :
|
Travis Bickle
Post strip surgery HELL,
05.07.2008, 18:44
@ Amilcar
|
benji |
Follica's idea seems so straight forward & so realistic.It’s almost too good to be true.It doesn’t have that high tech fantasy science feel to it as TRC has.You know what I mean? It is cutting edge but not like TRC was.
I know that all my posts involve speculation & no facts but I wonder if someone at Follica has already tried it on a part of their own body? If all the drugs & dermabrasion are FDA approved already why would you fear trying it on your own body?
Follica's idea seems to be the least dangerous(in terms of serious side effects) of all the ideas floating around right now.It’s not like someone would fear cancer or losing a limb by trying it on their arm or leg.Maybe they already know that it can work in humans & they just need to go through the human trial process for formality?
The one thing that really interests me about Follica is that it’s a procedure that won’t be restricted to HTP doctors.Any doctor,dermatologist or plastic surgeon will be able to perform this procedure.At least we will finally be done with these degenerate HTP doctors.
Travis Bickle is located in POST STRIP SURGERY HELL and he is available to meet: NO ---
It’s only after a bald man is butchered by a strip surgeon that he realises that there is nothing wrong with being bald.
It’s better to be naturally bald then disfigured. |
benji
05.07.2008, 18:58
@ Travis Bickle
|
benji |
» Follica's idea seems so straight forward & so realistic.It’s almost too
» good to be true.It doesn’t have that high tech fantasy science feel to it
» as TRC has.You know what I mean? It is cutting edge but not like TRC was. I know exactly what you mean. I felt the same way myself until I did a little reading about it and found out that test animals including rabbits have been found to generate de noveau hair follicles in response to wounds as far back as the fifties---but a doctor named William Straihlin (or some such spelling) wrote a paper dissing it all as "hair migrating in" from the sides of the wound and the discovery was just ignored. In the seventies, Arthur Kligman noted some dermabrasion patients (acne) noted some de noveau hair growth on their faces in response to dermabrasion and even wrote of it in a Dermatolgical journal. »
» I know that all my posts involve speculation & no facts but I wonder if
» someone at Follica has already tried it on a part of their own body? If all
» the drugs & dermabrasion are FDA approved already why would you fear trying
» it on your own body?
Follica's experient number 7 in the patent shows that human skin was grafted to a immunodeficient mouse, wounded.............and hair germs formed 7 days later. That is why I even gave it the time of day initially. That one experiment.
» Follica's idea seems to be the least dangerous(in terms of serious side
» effects) of all the ideas floating around right now.It’s not like someone
» would fear cancer or losing a limb by trying it on their arm or leg.Maybe
» they already know that it can work in humans & they just need to go through
» the human trial process for formality? Yup, this is kinda what I think. Im hoping it can work in the former donor areas of men who have had FUE transplants done, for these are the areas that would produce donor-quality hair. If it can make hair on male-pattern-bald scalp, I imagine that hair will still be suceptible to male hormone and henceforth a man would do well to stay on finasteride after its formation. Id love to be wrong about that though.
» » The one thing that really interests me about Follica is that it’s a
» procedure that won’t be restricted to HTP doctors.Any doctor,dermatologist
» or plastic surgeon will be able to perform this procedure.At least we will
» finally be done with these degenerate HTP doctors. More supply usually equals lower prices. Its not a "surgery", just dermabrasion with an egf-inhibiting drug, minox, finasteride, a antihistamine, a retinoid, and a anti-microbial and immunosuppressant topically applied for a mere 10 day period at the longest. Not a big hassle. I dont know if they will have you refrain from washing the scalp during this time though based on some statements in the first patent. On the HT docs.............there are some good ones on this site, but the big chains like Bosley, MHR, NuHart, Elliot and True have caused so much pain and disfigurement, I hope they get left out of any potential procedure. Those outfits have wrecked many lives.
benji is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
cal
06.07.2008, 01:47
@ benji
|
benji |
Thanks for continually laying this stuff out in english, Benji. I think many of us really appreciate it.
One thing:
- I still wonder about the Loniten/Minox factor.
Do you have any thoughts about whether they're literally talking about putting regular topical Minox onto the wound as part of the protocol? Or are they only considering systemic Loniten pills (probably for fear of alcohol disruption to the healing process)?
I also wonder whether the whole benefit gained from the Minox/Loniten is very significant or not.
cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Mr.Fantastic
06.07.2008, 04:21
@ benji
|
benji |
» http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/fetch.jsp?SEARCH_IA=US2007020842&DBSELECT=PCT&C=10&TOTAL=5&IDB=0&TYPE_FIELD=256&SERVER_TYPE=19-10&QUERY=%28FP%2Fcotsarelis%29+&START=1&ELEMENT_SET=B&SORT=41240713-KEY&RESULT=1&DISP=25&FORM=SEP-0%2FHITNUM%2CB-ENG%2CDP%2CMC%2CAN%2CPA%2CABSUM-ENG&IDOC=1408926&IA=US2007020842&LANG=ENG&DISPLAY=DESC
»
»
»
» Thats the follica kit patent. I suggest you read it. Lithium Chloride and
» wnt aren't even mentioned in this patent. They have probably found out that
» although these increase the amount and size of hairs, that they aren't
» necessary to grow it on human skin.............
»
»
»
»
» http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?wo=2006105109&IA=WO2006105109&DISPLAY=DESC
»
» that is the older follica patent, it has info about the usage of wnt7a or
» substitutes that can mimic it.
»
»
»
»
»
» in the most basic expermient, they wounded human skin grafted onto a SCID
» mouse..............and seven days later hair germs were detected in wounded
» skin with no adjuvants needed. They have found that by blocking epidermal
» growth factor with drugs like getfitinib, that more (and probably larger)
» hair follicles form. They have also found that usage of minoxidil and
» finasteride or other anti-androgens, aid the environment in the abraded
» skin surface area to be more condusive to better results insosfar as new
» hair is concerned. They have also found that three days before abrading
» the skin, that plucking the hairs present in the area will put all of them
» in a new anagen phase at the time of the abrasion, and the growth signalls
» radiated off the anagen hairs seems to help the process make more new hair
» also.
» Basically it looks like this...........depilate, wait three days, abrade,
» start the finasteride, wait three to five days (or at least until the skin
» re-epilithializes after the abrasion), then take the egf-inhbitor, and the
» minoxidil for several days (but less than ten days).................other
» things in the patent apparently help more hairs form, but in the most basic
» copyrighted form of the patent these three things (finas, egf-blocker,
» minox) are all they use after the abrasion. If it makes new hairs, I'd
» strongly recommend staying on the finasteride because they are made in mpb
» areas from the same stem cell lines..........
»
»
»
» You really need to read through both of the patents though............
»
»
»
» Example 7 in the patent is the one to focus on because it grew human hair
» on human skin.
Very good summary of it all benji. I agree that if it works you should stay on a AA of your choice.
Mr.Fantastic is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
MPB
06.07.2008, 09:05
@ benji
|
benji- any more advice; ready to try this |
Ok—So I think I am ready to try this. I am already on finas so I hope that doesn’t alter any results. I will start the test in the donor area where I seem to have some miniaturization going on so the fibrosis should not be a factor.
First: dermabrade. I know people on other sites are using 200? grade sandpaper to take out the stratum cornelium. I am still not sure how deep this would be…just enough to make it extremely red? Maybe a certain pain threshold could be a gage for this. I know the patent describes plucking out existing hairs (depilation) to get better results but I think for a home trial, I’ll skip this step.
Second: play the waiting game. I think I’ll try 5 days since it seems to be the median mark described in the patent, however, I’m still not sure what care should be taken through this stage. Shower or not shower. I don’t understand how just adding water would disrupt the process. Obviously stay away from soap or other irritating detergents.
Last: (And I’m still not sure on the duration of this step- applying the composition to the skin of a subject for at least 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, or even 10 consecutive days).I guess I’ll go for the full 10 days. Apply Rogaine. I guess it doesn’t matter if it’s the foam form or not. I seem remembering that you did mention taking this orally (Loniten). Is there a consensus on this application or should it be applied topically? I’m already on finasteride so hopfully that is covered. The only thing I need to acquire is the EGFR inhibitor. How is this applied and what in your opinion is the best one. I’m thinking getfitinib. This I know is probably hard to acquire. Any suggestions? Also you mentioned antihistamine, a retinoid, and a anti-microbial and immunosuppressant. Do you think this would be wise for a home experiment? WTF would you get this stuff?
Getfitnib- this is an oral application, correct? Sorry for my ignorance on these matters, but since I’m willing to be a guinea pig; I might as well get this sh%t down to an art as best I can. Thanx.
MPB has 1 Personal Journal(s). Click here to view
MPB is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Amilcar
06.07.2008, 17:37
@ MPB
|
benji- any more advice; ready to try this |
MPB you are not considering the Lithuim stuff ?
Amilcar is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO ---
Here is the future :
|
MPB
06.07.2008, 17:53
@ Amilcar
|
benji- any more advice; ready to try this |
» MPB you are not considering the Lithuim stuff ?
No- That wnt sh!t isnt in Follica's revised patent. Do you see any reason why I should pursue that route? I know a lot of guys are using it on the other sites, but it appears only EGFR inhibitors are necessary. Thoughts.
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Amilcar
06.07.2008, 19:52
@ MPB
|
benji- any more advice; ready to try this |
» » MPB you are not considering the Lithuim stuff ?
»
» No- That wnt sh!t isnt in Follica's revised patent. Do you see any reason
» why I should pursue that route? I know a lot of guys are using it on the
» other sites, but it appears only EGFR inhibitors are necessary. Thoughts.
I understand your point about WNT pathways..we had a brief discussion about it me and benji yesterday. However take a look at this http://tressless.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/follica-neogenesis.jpg
the 1st row is DKK1 (Wnt pathways halted).==> No hair follicles at all.
the 2nd row is the "normal" situation .==>Some hair follicles are showing.
the 3rd row is WNT activated.===> a LOT of hair follicles are showing( a lot more than the "standard" situation : I estimate it to be at least 4 times the number of hair follicles of the control row).
My assumption is that they dropped the WNT activation in the revised patent because the EGF inhibition or/and the scalp disrupting or/and the depilation of scalp hair (that will get hair massively in the anagen phase) hence ensuring that the body offer its own friendly WNT signaling status.However I'm not sure and therefore you need to review this point and discuss with as much insiders as possible. Giving that you are dropping the hair depilation its getting a bit sensitive here...
Amilcar is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO ---
Here is the future :
|
benji
06.07.2008, 20:07
@ cal
|
benji |
» Thanks for continually laying this stuff out in english, Benji. I think
» many of us really appreciate it. We appreciate your thoughtful observations also Cal. There is no harm in discussing a patent. We aren't doing anything of ill will.
» »
»
» One thing:
»
» - I still wonder about the Loniten/Minox factor. Yep, me too.
»
» Do you have any thoughts about whether they're literally talking about
» putting regular topical Minox onto the wound as part of the protocol? Or
» are they only considering systemic Loniten pills (probably for fear of
» alcohol disruption to the healing process)? I wonder about this also. The patent says topical. Minox has been shown to effect areas other than applications (even swollen hands in some folks----like I had somewhat back in the day). I had thought perhaps to use a generous amount of topical minox on either side of the application area would probably get some of it spreading through the capillaries to the wound. I have also thought about using arginine as a NO agonist and just not using a potassium channel opener.
»
» I also wonder whether the whole benefit gained from the Minox/Loniten is
» very significant or not. Ive wondered about this also. It was in example 14 in the first patent. It "enhanced" the amount of hairs grown similar to fiberblast growth factor (which would be more of a hassle to obtain than minoxidil).
Cal, the simpleist embodiment of the patent that they patent-protected was the wounding, plus the 1)egf-antibody 2)finasteride 3) minox.
We know they grew -some- hair on human skin with wounding alone in example 7.
I have an idea that perhaps you, I, TAGOHL if he is interested, and any other guy could do to test this in a way that wouldn't be detrimental to our scalps or any kind of risk.
There are other areas where a man might want a little more hair. Perhaps one of your eyebrows is thicker than the other one? My right one is a little larger than my left. Maybe the skin on the side of your head above your ears has a little more space than youd like before the occipital hairline started. Nobody can see behind someones' ear.
Perhaps one side of the nape of your neck has a smidgen more hair than the other..........
These would be places that someone could run a little test of perhaps a square inch or so of skin.
Im openly thinking about it by doing this:
Wounding and waiting about four good days.
Applying minox on either side of the wound from day four to ten.
Using milk thistle extract twice a day from day four to ten.
Not washing or letting water or soap touch the abraded area from the wounding day until day ten.
Perhaps, just perhaps...........taking a little lithium chloride (few pinches of it sprinkled as a salt on something) from day four through ten.
Cal, I ordered Arava (hasn't come yet, way past due), but perhaps you or TAGOHL has had success obtaining the egf-inhitors listed in the patent. TAGHOL has mentioned something about wounding his jawline. I have a pretty hairy beard, so if I grew hair on my jawline above normal, I'd have a hard time telling. Nevertheless, if you and TAGHOL ran a little test somewhere like behind the ear, above (or below) the eyebrow, the nape of the neck with the synthetic drug, and I did it with the milk thistle.............none of us washed the area...............we'd all pretty much have copped the patents simpleist embodiment as closely to the vest as possible. If all three of us didn't get anything, we'd know that either the immunosuppressant, the anti-histamine, the retinoid, or the anti-microbial was necessary, or that it just wont work in humans being.
I might try this next week. Hell if I seen hair four weeks after the little run, or you guys did.....................we'd know that follica will work.
If I was "safe" in the knowledge that follica will work..............I'd probably set up an appointment with a FUE doc pretty soon...............safe in the knowledge that a few years down the line follica could "do" my donor area and make "more" donor hair. I think many of us would feel the same way. Eight or ten hairs being "made" is all Id really need to know about in vivo in any one of us. If "we" can do that much, imagine what follica could do with their resources.....
benji is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
benji
06.07.2008, 20:11
@ MPB
|
benji- any more advice; ready to try this |
» » MPB you are not considering the Lithuim stuff ?
»
» No- That wnt sh!t isnt in Follica's revised patent. Do you see any reason
» why I should pursue that route? I know a lot of guys are using it on the
» other sites, but it appears only EGFR inhibitors are necessary. Thoughts.
Its certainly not in the newer kit patent. If you wanted some lithium though in "safe" doses.............garlic and tobacco have lithium as trace elements. I suppose if you took a garlic tablet (lots of people use garlic for health benefits as a nutritional supplement) from day three or more past the wounding date for several days...........it probably wouldn't hurt. If you chew tobacco (funny how few people do that anymore, back in the early nineties lots of young men did that), I suppose you get some lithium all the time.
benji is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
benji
06.07.2008, 20:21
@ MPB
|
benji- any more advice; ready to try this |
» Ok—So I think I am ready to try this. I am already on finas so I hope that
» doesn’t alter any results. I will start the test in the donor area where I
» seem to have some miniaturization going on so the fibrosis should not be a
» factor.
»
» First: dermabrade. I know people on other sites are using 200? grade
» sandpaper to take out the stratum cornelium. I am still not sure how deep
» this would be…just enough to make it extremely red? Maybe a certain pain
» threshold could be a gage for this. I know the patent describes plucking
» out existing hairs (depilation) to get better results but I think for a
» home trial, I’ll skip this step.
»
» Second: play the waiting game. I think I’ll try 5 days since it seems to
» be the median mark described in the patent, however, I’m still not sure
» what care should be taken through this stage. Shower or not shower. I don’t
» understand how just adding water would disrupt the process. Obviously stay
» away from soap or other irritating detergents.
»
» Last: (And I’m still not sure on the duration of this step- applying the
» composition to the skin of a subject for at least 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9,
» or even 10 consecutive days).I guess I’ll go for the full 10 days. Apply
» Rogaine. I guess it doesn’t matter if it’s the foam form or not. I seem
» remembering that you did mention taking this orally (Loniten). Is there a
» consensus on this application or should it be applied topically? I’m
» already on finasteride so hopfully that is covered. The only thing I need
» to acquire is the EGFR inhibitor. How is this applied and what in your
» opinion is the best one. I’m thinking getfitinib. This I know is probably
» hard to acquire. Any suggestions? Also you mentioned antihistamine, a
» retinoid, and a anti-microbial and immunosuppressant. Do you think this
» would be wise for a home experiment? WTF would you get this stuff?
» Getfitnib- this is an oral application, correct? Sorry for my ignorance on
» these matters, but since I’m willing to be a guinea pig; I might as well
» get this sh%t down to an art as best I can. Thanx.
Read my post to cal and it pretty much sums of what I think could be a good "little" test area that would be harmless.
On abrasion................if done right there will be little scabs forming or fibrin crusts in two or three days.............about the time they fall off is when the skin has re-epilithialized.
It might be just fine and dandy to wash and shower, but I dont know. The first patent mentioned that no anti-infective was to be used on the wound for the entire time. Im wondering about that. The thing is, the mice certainly didn't have the wounded area washed, so by not doing so Im just merely projecting one is playing it as close to the vest as possible.
I simply want to know if this works. If it does, those of us who are candidates for HT's (I'd be a pretty good one) can probably feel very safe in getting a FUE because we'd know follica will come through later. Im suggesting finding an area you dont have hair like around the eyebrow, behind the ear, or the nape of one side of the neck and trying it. If you get just a half-dozen strange new hairs, we will know that this thing can be done, and thus it will be done. What follica would be able to do with it would far surpass what we could do. I just want to see if the success with the human skin will be a go in us. Hope so.
All I can say if you are considering a spot with it is to read the patent, read about dermabrasion, obtain the things you think you'll need. We might all get squat, but follica has access to adjuvants that we dont. I do know this though.............they didn't take out that patnet for nothing. Somebody there thinks this could work.
benji is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
benji
06.07.2008, 20:23
@ Amilcar
|
benji |
» Thanks benji for your insights.
»
» that hair depilation must be painful am I right ? did they talk about that
» depilation in the second patent the one in which they did not mention WNT
» pathways ? my point is the following : is it possible that they think that
» they can get the body to activate its WNT pathways through depilating the
» scalp hair (getting as much as possible hair into anagen phase) ? thus
» there is no need to mimic WNT through lithuim or similarities
Ive thought about this myself. I hope that is the case.....that would be nice. I honestly dont know»
»
» » I'd strongly recommend staying on the finasteride because they are made
» in mpb
» » areas from the same stem cell lines..........
» Did you read their letter to Nature journal ? in the abstract they
» stated that completely new hair stem cells are generated from once simple
» epithelial cells (not belonging to the old stem cell lines), so may be your
» assumption that those are the same old stem cell lines and hence the de
» novo hair HF are androgen sensitive is arguable ? This would be fantastic, Id love for it to be so. If I tried it on my head and it grew hair though.....until proven otherwise Id still be on an anti-androgen.............
benji is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Travis Bickle
Post strip surgery HELL,
06.07.2008, 22:17
@ benji
|
B to the E to the N to the J to the I |
» If it can make hair on male-pattern-bald scalp,
» I imagine that hair will still be suceptible to male hormone and henceforth
» a man would do well to stay on finasteride after its formation. Id love to
» be wrong about that though.
It’s really late & I am half asleep.I don’t know if I am misunderstanding what you have written or what but,are you suggesting that the new hairs that will grow in the bald areas will still be susceptible to balding & require people to take Fin to hold onto these new hairs? Benji,I cannot profess to know a quarter of what you know in this field but I find this notion very difficult to believe.
If the new hairs where susceptible to balding then the entire trial would be a complete waste of time.The point of this exercise is to find a “cure” for baldness not produce hairs that will only fall out in time.
There are a large amounts of men who refuse to use Fin & Folllca knows that so they will not be relying on Fin to stop the hairs from falling out.Also, Fin stops working after 5 years,it is not a reliable drug for Follica to base their technology on.Who will pays tens of thousands of dollars for hair today that will fall out tomorrow? I really can’t see people having repeat sessioins especially when Fin stops working.
I am not an expert in this field,but I think that the new hairs produced by Follicas compound will never fall out. They must be immune to the balding process.It would be pointless for Follica to even continue wasting their time & resources on this solution if the new hairs would bald.
Even IF the new hairs will continue to bald, it can still be useful to people like me. I have scar tissue in my donor area. The hairs in the donor area don’t bald so the results gained by Follica in this area will be permanent. This solution alone will be a HUGE burden of my shoulders. This procedure alone will give me my life back.
That’s why I am so interested in ACELL. If I wound the scarring at the back of my head, apply the dust, hair should regrow in the area, I will buzz my head bald like so many other bald guys have done & my life will restart.
Anyway, going back to Follca. I am certain that serious side effects will not stop this technology. I am certain that the new hairs will never fall out.
My only concerns are:
Will the new hairs grow in a natural way? Will they be able to replicate the swirl pattern in the crown? This frightens me a great deal. They will never be able to release this to the public if the hairs are growing in different directions. I personally don’t care about this factor but it will hamper it from becoming a commercial product.
What about density,what kind of density will they achieve & will they be able to control density from patient to patient?
We have already discussed & dismissed the idea that dermabrasion will harm pre existing hairs but this still concerns me. People will be reluctant to have this procedure done if they will have to sacrifice pre existing hairs to regrow new ones. This is another stumbling block for this product being released to the public.
Again, until i see that it works in an actual human being I will not be totally relieved. A HUMAN will have to grow new hairs in their scalp & then I will be really excited. I know I am repeating myself but seeing something that works in an animal will not prove to me that it will work in a human. They can show me proof until the cows come home but I want to see it work in a human.
My hope is that Follica’s trials will yield great results very quickly. Don’t forget, unlike ICX they don’t have to wait 3 months to see if the hairs have began to grow nor do they have to wait 1 year to see the full results. Follica’s new hairs grow very quickly so the results will be available sooner which will speed up the entire process of the trial. It could be available much sooner then we have all planned. I know this is just a childish fantasy but this is the only way i can see it happening. It will be a bolt of lightning. Nobody would have expected it & it will take the world by storm
I have money tucked away specifically for this day & won’t hesitate to spend tens of thousands of dollars on a solution. I am ready today to pay anyone for a solution. I will pay double the price to be first in line
Anyways,I am off to bed.Sorry if I have just wasted your time with things that you have already explained but......Goodnight.
Travis Bickle is located in POST STRIP SURGERY HELL and he is available to meet: NO ---
It’s only after a bald man is butchered by a strip surgeon that he realises that there is nothing wrong with being bald.
It’s better to be naturally bald then disfigured. |
MPB
07.07.2008, 07:22
@ benji
|
benji |
» » Thanks for continually laying this stuff out in english, Benji. I think
»
» Im openly thinking about it by doing this:
» Wounding and waiting about four good days.
» Applying minox on either side of the wound from day four to ten.
» Using milk thistle extract twice a day from day four to ten.
» Not washing or letting water or soap touch the abraded area from the
» wounding day until day ten.
» Perhaps, just perhaps...........taking a little lithium chloride (few
» pinches of it sprinkled as a salt on something) from day four through
» ten.
What is milk thistle? Is this what you intend to replace Arava with since you're having trouble obtaining it? Also if you could get getfitnib would you use that instead? These EGFR inhibitors, some appear to be topical applications and some oral. I wonder which are more effective?
I still have my bottle of unused "lab grade" lithium chloride. I wasn't sure how to use the stuff. Do you just sprinkle it on the wound or mix it up in some type of solution and rub it on? What concentration would you recommend?
Thanx.
»
»
» Cal, I ordered Arava (hasn't come yet, way past due), but perhaps you or
» TAGOHL has had success obtaining the egf-inhitors listed in the patent.
» TAGHOL has mentioned something about wounding his jawline. I have a pretty
» hairy beard, so if I grew hair on my jawline above normal, I'd have a hard
» time telling. Nevertheless, if you and TAGHOL ran a little test somewhere
» like behind the ear, above (or below) the eyebrow, the nape of the neck
» with the synthetic drug, and I did it with the milk
» thistle.............none of us washed the area...............we'd all
» pretty much have copped the patents simpleist embodiment as closely to the
» vest as possible. If all three of us didn't get anything, we'd know that
» either the immunosuppressant, the anti-histamine, the retinoid, or the
» anti-microbial was necessary, or that it just wont work in humans being.
»
» I might try this next week. Hell if I seen hair four weeks after the
» little run, or you guys did.....................we'd know that follica will
» work.
»
» If I was "safe" in the knowledge that follica will work..............I'd
» probably set up an appointment with a FUE doc pretty
» soon...............safe in the knowledge that a few years down the line
» follica could "do" my donor area and make "more" donor hair. I think many
» of us would feel the same way. Eight or ten hairs being "made" is all Id
» really need to know about in vivo in any one of us. If "we" can do that
» much, imagine what follica could do with their resources.....
MPB has 1 Personal Journal(s). Click here to view
MPB is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Z79
07.07.2008, 12:01
@ MPB
|
my experiment |
I have actually already been doing pretty much what you guys are planning. A quick summary.
On June 13th I used a 180 sandpaper on the top of my scalp and in front of my hairline. A bit painful even after applying a lidocain cream so be sure to have some pain killers.
I was specially careful to wound deep enough in front of my hairline since no hair is growing there. The area was very red and I stopped at first sign of blod.
For the first eight days I ate an antibiotic (doxi..? dont remember) since I read in the patent that mice who fed on this for nine days grew pigmented hair. But they were geneticly altered so it may not have this effect on humans.
48 hours after the wounding I started applying an immunosuppresant (Elidel cream) once a day for 9 days. I am not sure why immunosuppresant are in the patent but I figured that maybe it suppresed the Wnt signaling and caused pigmentation of the hair. Took a gamble on that one.
My intention was to apply the EGFR inhibitor (Arava, leflunomide) when the crust would fall of but the order came in late. The crust fell of after a week and on the twelfth day I could apply a 0.5 % leflunomide solution (300 mg arava crushed and mixed in 2% minox) twice a day for eight days. I also applied spectral dnc-l (for better absorbtion of the leflunomide) and flutagel. I did not wash my scalp for one week and could not go outside without something on my head so be prepared for that.
There is no sign of new hair growth after three weeks, in the patent they mention seeing new hair as early as 25 days so my experience may have failed. If so it could be that I missed the "window" and should have applied the minox/leflunomid/flutagel much earlier. There was no signs of sideeffects I might add, and the arava was pretty cheap (70 dollars). Other egfr inhibitors might be better though.
I believe there are two crucial points in succesing with this. First the wounding must be deep enough (I stopped when I started seeing blood) and the other is the timing of application. When wounding the mice by cutting they waited 11-12 days and then applied the egfr inhibitor, which was followed by hair growth. When doing abrasion the skin heals quicker so therefor I believe the application should take place 3-5 days after wounding or maybe directly when the crust falls of (day seven). I dont believe chemical peeling is enough for wounding.
If I dont see any growth at all within a month I will do a new experiment on a smaller area and apply the solution much earlier. The leflunomide solution would easily last three treatments when I apply 1 ml twice a day.
So if anyone is doing their own experiment try applying the egfr inhibitor earlier and using something else then Arava. If enough people dare to try this route we will soon find out the optimal strategy for growing hair. But everyone do this on their own risk!
Z79 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Amilcar
07.07.2008, 13:28
(edited by Amilcar, 07.07.2008, 13:37)
@ Z79
|
benji,cal,TAGHOL, MPB...you need to discuss with Z79 |
benji,cal,TAGHOL, MPB...you need to discuss with Z79
Amilcar is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO ---
Here is the future :
|
cal
07.07.2008, 14:10
@ Amilcar
|
benji,cal,TAGHOL, MPB...you need to discuss with Z79 |
The first thing that comes to mind is this: We don't know whether Leflunomide is a decent shot for skin absorption or not. By what we know now, the only sure way to get the effects from it would be systemically.
Second thing - The unknowns about immunosuppressants & minox on the wound. We know a systemically-suppressed immune system helps, but we don't know for sure that a topical isn't going to do the opposite.
In theory, dermbrasion would cause at least a little thickening/regrowth with no drugs at all. (And this has been my abrading/wounding experience too.) And even if Leflunomide fails to be a viable topically-absorbed drug, I would imagine that surely some small amount of it got through anyway.
If you don't see ANYTHING in the way of results, then it may be time to conclude that some aspect of your particular experiment not only failed to work but actively fouled things up.
cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Z79
07.07.2008, 15:47
@ cal
|
benji,cal,TAGHOL, MPB...you need to discuss with Z79 |
» The first thing that comes to mind is this: We don't know whether
» Leflunomide is a decent shot for skin absorption or not. By what we know
» now, the only sure way to get the effects from it would be systemically.
»
»
» Second thing - The unknowns about immunosuppressants & minox on the wound.
» We know a systemically-suppressed immune system helps, but we don't know
» for sure that a topical isn't going to do the opposite.
»
»
»
»
» In theory, dermbrasion would cause at least a little thickening/regrowth
» with no drugs at all. (And this has been my abrading/wounding experience
» too.) And even if Leflunomide fails to be a viable topically-absorbed
» drug, I would imagine that surely some small amount of it got through
» anyway.
»
» If you don't see ANYTHING in the way of results, then it may be time to
» conclude that some aspect of your particular experiment not only failed to
» work but actively fouled things up.
You have good points, we dont know how well leflunomide is absorbed but it did mix fairly well in minox at least. I never applied immunosuppresants and minox at the same time, first it was the Elidel cream for nine days and then the minox/leflunomid/fin compound.
It might be to early to see any result for three weeks, but at least any newly formed hair follicles would be present by now (if it worked) so the next few weeks should tell if it was a total failure.
At least my present hair growth has not been messed up and as far as I know I have gotten no sides.
What does everyone think that the immunosuppresants in the patent is supposed to do? Maybe I will skip it the next time and stick with the EGFR inhibitor, minox and fin.
Androgens are actually mentioned in the patent to have the same effect as EGFR inhibitors in one paragraph so maybe flutamide alone could have a positive effect if people have a hard time gettin some EGFR inhibitors.
Z79 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
TAGOHL
07.07.2008, 16:16
@ Z79
|
benji,cal,TAGHOL, MPB...you need to discuss with Z79 |
» You have good points, we dont know how well leflunomide is absorbed but it
» did mix fairly well in minox at least.
Absorption isn't really the concern. Rather, its how leflunomide is metabolized in the skin. Leflunomide needs to be converted to its active form to be biologically effective. The question is whether the skin is capable of performing this enzymatic conversion. I have no idea if the skin can do this or not. The other option is to take leflunomide orally for the treatment period. If you can afford it, I'd buy one of the FDA approved EGFR inhibitors.
» What does everyone think that the immunosuppresants
If you are asking for opinions, I'd dump the immunosuppressants and try to keep it as simple as possible: wound + EGF inhibitor, with maybe minox and an antiandrogen added on. I'd start the antiandrogen before the wounding, and then start applying the EGF antagonist and minoxidil several days after wounding.
TAGOHL is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
cal
07.07.2008, 16:38
@ TAGOHL
|
benji,cal,TAGHOL, MPB...you need to discuss with Z79 |
I think I'd be inclined to get it down as simply as possible for a first try, even if it might not be the ideal growth. I just wanna know if this sh*t works PERIOD right now. F*ck EVERYTHING else until that original million-dollar question is settled.
Maybe literally just take oral Finasteride the whole time, and take the oral EGF drug for 10 days starting 4 days after wounding. Maybe no topicals at all.
The only other thing that doesn't seem raise any possible potential to complicate things in live humans would be the chemical hair depilation 3 days before the wound.
It seems like every single other possible thing in all those patents is either different from the mouse successes in some way, or else we can't 100% guarantee that it won't foul-up the healing if used topically.
cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Z79
07.07.2008, 16:39
@ TAGOHL
|
benji,cal,TAGHOL, MPB...you need to discuss with Z79 |
»
» If you are asking for opinions, I'd dump the immunosuppressants and try to
» keep it as simple as possible: wound + EGF inhibitor, with maybe minox and
» an antiandrogen added on. I'd start the antiandrogen before the wounding,
» and then start applying the EGF antagonist and minoxidil several days after
» wounding.
Yeah maybe it is better to take the EGFR inhibitors orally, but some how I am more concerned with side effects then. I know that this probably is silly since some people has to eat these medicines every day for months and not just a week.
So many people here seem desperate for new hair but so few seem to be willing to experiment. It is a shame beacause I believe with some trial and error we would crack the patent and come up with a working routine. We are working with approved drugs so there is no real danger, it will work or it wont.
I hope some of you will try different ways than I did so we could rule out what works or not.
Z79 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
MPB
07.07.2008, 17:23
@ Z79
|
my experiment |
» I have actually already been doing pretty much what you guys are planning.
» A quick summary.
»
» On June 13th I used a 180 sandpaper on the top of my scalp and in front of
» my hairline. A bit painful even after applying a lidocain cream so be sure
» to have some pain killers.
»
» I was specially careful to wound deep enough in front of my hairline since
» no hair is growing there. The area was very red and I stopped at first sign
» of blod.
»
» For the first eight days I ate an antibiotic (doxi..? dont remember) since
» I read in the patent that mice who fed on this for nine days grew pigmented
» hair. But they were geneticly altered so it may not have this effect on
» humans.
»
» 48 hours after the wounding I started applying an immunosuppresant (Elidel
» cream) once a day for 9 days. I am not sure why immunosuppresant are in the
» patent but I figured that maybe it suppresed the Wnt signaling and caused
» pigmentation of the hair. Took a gamble on that one.
Maybe these guys are right in that you may need to use lithium to suppress the wnt signaling even though it isn't mentioned in the patent. I know this seems to be the common ingrediant they are using over on that "other site" and some swear they are seeing terminal hairs where there weren't any before. I dont know why it isn't mentioned in the latest Follica patent but I'm sure they have the procedure down pat where if they get their ducks in a row "just right", everything works!
»
» My intention was to apply the EGFR inhibitor (Arava, leflunomide) when the
» crust would fall of but the order came in late. The crust fell of after a
» week and on the twelfth day I could apply a 0.5 % leflunomide solution (300
» mg arava crushed and mixed in 2% minox) twice a day for eight days. I also
» applied spectral dnc-l (for better absorbtion of the leflunomide) and
» flutagel. I did not wash my scalp for one week and could not go outside
» without something on my head so be prepared for that.
I'm not sure what happened here. I'm sure Benji can give you a better explanation than I can, but hey if we are all trying different applications of the patent, one of us is bound to get a hit. Best of luck!
»
» There is no sign of new hair growth after three weeks, in the patent they
» mention seeing new hair as early as 25 days so my experience may have
» failed. If so it could be that I missed the "window" and should have
» applied the minox/leflunomid/flutagel much earlier. There was no signs of
» sideeffects I might add, and the arava was pretty cheap (70 dollars). Other
» egfr inhibitors might be better though.
»
» I believe there are two crucial points in succesing with this. First the
» wounding must be deep enough (I stopped when I started seeing blood) and
» the other is the timing of application. When wounding the mice by cutting
» they waited 11-12 days and then applied the egfr inhibitor, which was
» followed by hair growth. When doing abrasion the skin heals quicker so
» therefor I believe the application should take place 3-5 days after
» wounding or maybe directly when the crust falls of (day seven). I dont
» believe chemical peeling is enough for wounding.
»
» If I dont see any growth at all within a month I will do a new experiment
» on a smaller area and apply the solution much earlier. The leflunomide
» solution would easily last three treatments when I apply 1 ml twice a day.
»
» So if anyone is doing their own experiment try applying the egfr inhibitor
» earlier and using something else then Arava. If enough people dare to try
» this route we will soon find out the optimal strategy for growing hair. But
» everyone do this on their own risk!
MPB has 1 Personal Journal(s). Click here to view
MPB is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
cal
07.07.2008, 17:23
@ Z79
|
benji,cal,TAGHOL, MPB...you need to discuss with Z79 |
Already there.
I've had a small amount of generic Arava pills for a while now.
I've been sitting on the stuff for like 2 months because it seems like every week we figure out another little tidbit about how the whole thing should work better.
I'm getting pretty close to trying it. When I finally do this I'm not gonna leave anything to chance if I can help it. Probably just oral Fin, oral EGF pills, and no topicals whatsoever.
If this setup fails to grow anything, then either my generic Leflunomide pills were fake or the whole Folica project is history. I'll probably get an idea about whether the pills were legit from the side effects.
I just want THE question answered. I don't care about what's better for growth & density right now. All the rest of that stuff is horsesh*t if Folica's core principle doesn't work on humans in the first place.
cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
benji
07.07.2008, 20:32
@ cal
|
benji,cal,TAGHOL, MPB...you need to discuss with Z79 |
» Already there.
»
» I've had a small amount of generic Arava pills for a while now.
»
» I've been sitting on the stuff for like 2 months because it seems like
» every week we figure out another little tidbit about how the whole thing
» should work better.
»
»
»
»
» I'm getting pretty close to trying it. When I finally do this I'm not
» gonna leave anything to chance if I can help it. Probably just oral Fin,
» oral EGF pills, and no topicals whatsoever.
»
» If this setup fails to grow anything, then either my generic Leflunomide
» pills were fake or the whole Folica project is history. I'll probably get
» an idea about whether the pills were legit from the side effects.
»
»
» I just want THE question answered. I don't care
» about what's better for growth & density right now. All the rest of that
» stuff is horsesh*t if Folica's core principle doesn't work on humans in the
» first place.
This is pretty much how I am about it Cal. Im glad you've had better luck obtaining Arava that Ive had. 
The reason Im inclined just to take the adjuvants orally is that I dont want any wierd carrier (PPG, etc) screwing anything up. The mice with the human skin on it in Experiment 7 was just abraded and nothing else. I depliated last night manually with a pair of tweezers. No chemicals, nada. After three days, I'll abrade............four more and I'll start popping Silymarin Milk Thistle Extract and putting minox above and below (but not on) the wound. Im taking dustasteride for the next 13 days (I had some dutas caps from genhair). Thats it................I hope I can come back here in about 6-8 weeks and tell you guys Ive got a larger eyebrow above my left eye  , and a little more hair behind one ear, etc.
benji is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
MPB
07.07.2008, 20:47
@ benji
|
benji,cal,TAGHOL, MPB...you need to discuss with Z79 |
» This is pretty much how I am about it Cal. Im glad you've had better luck
» obtaining Arava that Ive had.
»
»
» The reason Im inclined just to take the adjuvants orally is that I dont
» want any wierd carrier (PPG, etc) screwing anything up. The mice with the
» human skin on it in Experiment 7 was just abraded and nothing else. I
» depliated last night manually with a pair of tweezers. No chemicals, nada.
» After three days, I'll abrade............four more and I'll start popping
» Silymarin Milk Thistle Extract and putting minox above and below (but not
» on) the wound. Im taking dustasteride for the next 13 days (I had some
» dutas caps from genhair). Thats it................I hope I can come back
» here in about 6-8 weeks and tell you guys Ive got a larger eyebrow above my
» left eye , and a little more hair behind one ear, etc.
Benji- first what method of abrasion are you using. Chemical peel sandpaper or what?
Second what is Silymarin Milk Thistle Extract and would you use Gefitinib in its place if you could get it? Thanx.
MPB has 1 Personal Journal(s). Click here to view
MPB is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
cal
08.07.2008, 00:25
@ MPB
|
benji,cal,TAGHOL, MPB...you need to discuss with Z79 |
Benji -
Ya think chemical hair removers (like Nair) are a risk, even 3 whole days before the wounding? I thought that's what they used in the experiments.
Tweezers are kinda impractical for my temple areas that are full of mostly-minuaturized follicles already. I don't know what else could feasibly be done . . . maybe waxing the spot or something? I don't want to give up on the hair removal beforehand because it seemed to make a major difference.
In your case,
I'm not sure how eyebrows & behind the ear areas will be great things to try unless they're areas of skin that had scalp hairs originally. Aren't we still basically talking about activating DNA-encoded commands for generating follicles? (And with the eyebrows, aren't those flip-flopped in terms of androgen reactions? Aren't they more like PRO-androgen hairs or something?)
cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
TAGOHL
08.07.2008, 10:02
@ cal
|
benji,cal,TAGHOL, MPB...you need to discuss with Z79 |
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