ssssss
08.07.2008, 12:06 |
Intercytex (Hair Multiplication & Research) |
Ian Kent 8 July 2008
http://www.intercytex.com/icx/investors/rns/rnsitem?id=1215496856nRnsH5139Y&t=popup
"Richard has spent over 6 years at Intercytex during which it has grown from an early-stage pre-clinical company to one with a product on the market and a late stage pipeline with substantial value."
hmm "late stage pipeline" i wonder which product he might be referring to 
cant be vavaelta cos its already on market, cant be skn cos it just started phase 2
between TRC AND PRO but TRC is of more commercial value than PRO
ssssss is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Bald-HalfTruth
08.07.2008, 13:34
@ ssssss
|
Intercytex |
Hmmm.
"Substantial value"
Putting hair on people's heads would be one of the biggest products ever released to the commercial market.
Bald-HalfTruth is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
ssssss
08.07.2008, 14:11
@ Bald-HalfTruth
|
Intercytex |
not one of i think it would be the biggest
botox, facelift, liposuction would all be nothing compared to TRC as far as making money goes but UK economy is going into recession so perhaps the government (MHRA) would allow this be sold in the UK soon. 1 year of sales would bring in at least £25B to the economy a year.
ssssss is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
debris
08.07.2008, 14:23
(edited by debris, 08.07.2008, 15:01)
@ ssssss
|
Of course he meant PRO |
Its way more of value than TRC. Why? Because PRO works, and is in phase III. TRC probably doesnt work yet and phase III is not planned to happen unless someone pays for more research.
If it was TRC then it would be working awesome and we would have already heard it in the last report.
Besides, its just normal corporate talk. Everything has substantial value in corporate statements.
Also, PRO's target market value is just 80% of the current hair loss market value. Its not small as you may think. I know that real hairloss cure would have huge market. But TRC is not real hair loss cure.
debris is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
debris
08.07.2008, 14:32
(edited by debris, 08.07.2008, 14:40)
@ ssssss
|
Intercytex |
I'm sure they would love to be selling it soon, if it worked well. But because in the last report they clearly said they do not plan to push it forward to phase III themselves, it probably does not work well yet. So seeing ICX-TRC being sold soon is just a fantasy.
debris is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
ssssss
08.07.2008, 20:22
@ debris
|
Intercytex |
debris u dont the 1st thing about TRC so stop talking out of backside
ssssss is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
dave21
08.07.2008, 22:06
@ debris
|
Of course he meant PRO |
» Its way more of value than TRC. Why? Because PRO works, and is in phase
» III. TRC probably doesnt work yet and phase III is not planned to happen
» unless someone pays for more research.
»
» If it was TRC then it would be working awesome and we would have already
» heard it in the last report.
»
» Besides, its just normal corporate talk. Everything has substantial value
» in corporate statements.
»
» Also, PRO's target market value is just 80% of the current hair loss
» market value. Its not small as you may think. I know that real hairloss
» cure would have huge market. But TRC is not real hair loss cure.
Debris couldn't be more right, anyways they tried saying trc was "within five years" bull just a month ago! C'mon guys
dave21 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Redman77
08.07.2008, 23:22
@ ssssss
|
Intercytex |
intercytex....never thought i'd say this....but.....i've lost faith in them and TRC.
jeez....wtf is left????
Redman77 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO ---
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cal
08.07.2008, 23:29
@ Redman77
|
Intercytex |
I'm very optimistic about Folica but not about TRC at this point.
TRC's last set of results is clearly an attempt to delay showing their real hand about its progress. And the refusal to even fund a third phase on their own speaks volumes. It's pretty close to a vote of "no confidence" in the whole project.
cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
debris
09.07.2008, 01:09
(edited by debris, 09.07.2008, 01:28)
@ cal
|
Intercytex |
» I'm very optimistic about Folica but not about TRC at this point.
»
» TRC's last set of results is clearly an attempt to delay showing their
» real hand about its progress. And the refusal to even fund a third phase
» on their own speaks volumes. It's pretty close to a vote of "no
» confidence" in the whole project.
There is no reason nor a single one proof that follica works better then ICX. Nor a reason to think that it will be on the market sooner then ICX. Nor a reason to think that it won't fail.
Perhaps the only proof showing that it actually could work in humans, is the gefinitib photo. One guy was able to grow hair or maybe was too shy to tell his hot cancer doctor that he's had his crotch hair transplanted on top of his head. (actually I do not believe he had, it looked not like a HT, but well I'm not a HT doc I really cant tell for sure. And even if I assumed it was 100% genuine (which is a bit rare situation in the hairloss industry), its one guy, out of all other gefinitib patients. It still sounds like it wont be easy to reproduce it.)
debris is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
cal
09.07.2008, 04:59
@ debris
|
Intercytex |
I think you're wrong.
ICX has never produced ANYTHING resembling the skin graft regrowth photos, which Folica seems to be able to get repeatedly. And ICX is known to be in clinical trials for all-new substances, whereas all the Folica drugs & methods are 100% available to us right now.
So Folica's situation offers us full access to all the raw materials & methods they might use + it's the first HM method to produce ANYTHING really cosmetically impressive on human skin of any form.
And Folica's method also presents a case of somebody "stumbling into" some results which are already better than anything ICX-TRC has ever produced. He got this result while dying of cancer and doing 3/4ths of the procedure wrong. (Hair transplant? Man, just let the conspiracy ideas go. The patient was photographed with the hair 3 months after he started the medication. That's not a hell of a lot of time to have a HT and also get it all healed up & grown-out.)
If all that is "no better than ICX," then I'd love to know exactly what situation actually would satisfy your requirements for increased optimism.
cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
debris
09.07.2008, 08:32
@ cal
|
Intercytex |
I will start to be optimistic about some treatment when it repeatedly grows hair on a living mpb suferers.
As I said before, the guy with the cancer is quite significant for me. Show me another one and I'll agree that we have something here that might help us soon.
I put no value in hair growth on mice including immunsupressed mice. I think you are mistaken when you said it was the first time we had seen something like the follica pictures. I have seen similar pictures before many times. These creatures grow hair out of thin air. If you take your balding follicles and put them onto immuno supressed mice, it grows as well. on its own. no EGRF nor WNT needed. For these reasons, mouse experiments are of very little value for me.
debris is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
cal
10.07.2008, 00:16
@ debris
|
Intercytex |
Yeah, but how did the fresh follicles get onto the mouse's human skin graft in the first place?
As I understand it, they demonstrated that the EGF-R inhibition method actually CREATED new follicles from scratch. Follicles with normal cycling, direction, and characteristics.
IMO that's huge progress no matter how you stack it.
cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
haroldo
10.07.2008, 01:51
@ cal
|
Intercytex |
» Yeah, but how did the fresh follicles get onto the mouse's human skin graft
» in the first place?
»
» As I understand it, they demonstrated that the EGF-R inhibition method
» actually CREATED new follicles from scratch. Follicles with normal
» cycling, direction, and characteristics.
»
»
» IMO that's huge progress no matter how you stack it.
Exactly - the point is they created NEW hair follicles in the human skin. Not that they got previously balding hair follicles to grow. The only thing that we dont know as to whther it will work is on actual bald/balding scalp. I think balding scalp will prove resistant but I think we/Follica have the tools and or understanding to work around that infairly short order. At any rate I dont think there will be some great insoluble mystery as to why it doesnt work in balding scalp and at worst if everything fails and the sun falls out of the sky and they get no results they will learn a lot about the balding process from looking at why it doesnt work in balding skin. Which would almost certainly give them a way around the problem anyway like I said before...
hh
haroldo is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
cal
10.07.2008, 02:00
@ haroldo
|
Intercytex |
The changes in balded scalp skin are reversible. Any decent HT clinic gets it to work every day.
What's the worst that could happen? That we have to get some sparse FUE grafting done on areas that we wanna do the Folica procedure on?
cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
helpme007
10.07.2008, 03:27
@ cal
|
I still think that Intercytex is our best bet |
1) because they are in phase II already
2) they developed the longest time of all comanies we know of.
if anything will work, its intercytex. a better bet is still neosh101, but i think noone in here would consider it a cure. intercytex wont be a cure aswell, but for people with no nw6-7 it could help much.
i dont think it will be here very soon though. maybe in 5 years. so in about 2013.
though i dont understand why you are all so pessimistic about ICX. sure , they could fail, but who couldnt? acell isnt real i think. look at their website, the company just exist from 2001-2008, so they cant and dont have made FDA-tests.
we have to wait until september. maybe then ICX will come out with good news and you all change your view. maybe im wrong and they will come out with bad news, but then i think there wont be anything for a long time, at least not follica or acell.
helpme007 has 3 Personal Journal(s). Click here to view
helpme007 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Max
10.07.2008, 03:52
@ helpme007
|
I still think that Intercytex is our best bet |
I'll give you right....
...Schneemann
Max is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
rev
your nightmares,
10.07.2008, 04:18
@ helpme007
|
HOW is Intercytex our best bet ? |
» 1) because they are in phase II already
»
» 2) they developed the longest time of all comanies we know of.
»
» if anything will work, its intercytex. a better bet is still neosh101, but
» i think noone in here would consider it a cure. intercytex wont be a cure
» aswell, but for people with no nw6-7 it could help much.
»
» i dont think it will be here very soon though. maybe in 5 years. so in
» about 2013.
»
» though i dont understand why you are all so pessimistic about ICX. sure ,
» they could fail, but who couldnt? acell isnt real i think. look at their
» website, the company just exist from 2001-2008, so they cant and dont have
» made FDA-tests.
»
» we have to wait until september. maybe then ICX will come out with good
» news and you all change your view. maybe im wrong and they will come out
» with bad news, but then i think there wont be anything for a long time, at
» least not follica or acell.
Sure, ICX could work, but here's why we lost faith in them:
- No photos.
- Extremely small cohorts.
- They didn't test if repeat treatments will increase hair counts.
- No consistency without dermabrasion
- No plans for Phase III without funding.
- Plan to work with Bosley - the biggest crooks in town.
- Even if it worked today, the market penetration would be slower than a snail because it's solely reliant on expensive cell cultivation equipment.
.
rev is located in YOUR NIGHTMARES and he is available to meet: NO ---
..-. -.-. -.- .... .-. .-.. ... / ... ..- -.-. -.- ... / .- ... ... |
nathan
10.07.2008, 11:05
@ rev
|
HOW is Intercytex our best bet ? |
Did u expect them to trial the entire male population. They r scientists and they know more than us.
No here know anything about their tests.
Do u think they will throw away 6/7 years of hard work ?? They've known for long that phase III is not required and have planned for it.
I couldn't disagree more. The £2M government grant was used to develop the commercial side i'e the robot to expedite the process. The market is half the world's male population. That is around 2 billion men and when it comes there will be a stampede.
They r not at liberty to show u photos. Their trialist were required to sign confidentialty forms and do u think they will share data with us ??
nathan is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
debris
10.07.2008, 12:07
@ nathan
|
HOW is Intercytex our best bet ? |
How about your insiders info? Do you speak to the guy again?
debris is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
cal
10.07.2008, 15:48
@ debris
|
HOW is Intercytex our best bet ? |
ICX has every commercial motive to show good news, but they show inconclusive and somewhat discouraging news.
Folica has every commercial motive to show bad news, but their patents betray some pretty conclusive/good news.
cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
debris
10.07.2008, 15:49
@ cal
|
HOW is Intercytex our best bet ? |
» ICX has every commercial motive to show good news, but they show
» inconclusive and somewhat discouraging news.
»
»
» Folica has every commercial motive to show bad news, but their patents
» betray some pretty conclusive/good news.
I have to see a good news from follica yet. They have not even tried it on a human.
Balding human scalp is much tougher environment than some human skin graft on an immuno suppresed mice.
Gimme immunosupression and I'll grow some hair as well! Thats pretty old news. We did not need Follica to know this.
debris is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
goata007
10.07.2008, 16:27
@ nathan
|
HOW is Intercytex our best bet ? |
» Do u think they will throw away 6/7 years of hard work ?? They've known
» for long that phase III is not required and have planned for it.
Dr. Kemp in his last interview said that phase-III is required, and they are looking for a partner to proceed with phase-III. He didn't even mention anything about commercialization in a country with less restrictions.
goata007 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO ---
"If we knew what it was that we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?" - Albert Einstein |
cal
10.07.2008, 17:58
@ goata007
|
HOW is Intercytex our best bet ? |
But give ICX an immunosuppressed mouse with a human skin graft on its back, and chances are they'll probably still grow nothing at all.
cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
debris
11.07.2008, 01:23
@ cal
|
HOW is Intercytex our best bet ? |
» But give ICX an immunosuppressed mouse with a human skin graft on its back,
» and chances are they'll probably still grow nothing at all.
I seriously doubt so. They are not frauders. You can be sure they tested it in mice and it grew good hair there. In fact there are even pre ICX papers that describe exactly that. It works in mice. The problem is, that it always works only in mice.
BTW we have seen that it somehow worked in human as well. One of the pictures they released shows quite remarkable regrowth and thickening of the hair.
debris is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
haroldo
11.07.2008, 05:08
@ debris
|
HOW is Intercytex our best bet ? |
» » ICX has every commercial motive to show good news, but they show
» » inconclusive and somewhat discouraging news.
» »
» »
» » Folica has every commercial motive to show bad news, but their patents
» » betray some pretty conclusive/good news.
»
» I have to see a good news from follica yet. They have not even tried it on
» a human.
»
» Balding human scalp is much tougher environment than some human skin graft
» on an immuno suppresed mice.
»
» Gimme immunosupression and I'll grow some hair as well! Thats pretty old
» news. We did not need Follica to know this.
I doubt you would. Pretty much everything to do with immunosupressing drugs and hair growth has been shown to be attributable to an aspect of the drug that has nothing to do with its immunosupressive abilities. That line of thought is somewhat outmoded.
hh
haroldo is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
haroldo
11.07.2008, 05:10
@ haroldo
|
HOW is Intercytex our best bet ? |
» » » ICX has every commercial motive to show good news, but they show
» » » inconclusive and somewhat discouraging news.
» » »
» » »
» » » Folica has every commercial motive to show bad news, but their
» patents
» » » betray some pretty conclusive/good news.
» »
» » I have to see a good news from follica yet. They have not even tried it
» on
» » a human.
» »
» » Balding human scalp is much tougher environment than some human skin
» graft
» » on an immuno suppresed mice.
» »
» » Gimme immunosupression and I'll grow some hair as well! Thats pretty
» old
» » news. We did not need Follica to know this.
»
» I doubt you would. Pretty much everything to do with immunosupressing
» drugs and hair growth has been shown to be attributable to an aspect of the
» drug that has nothing to do with its immunosupressive abilities. That line
» of thought is somewhat outmoded.
» hh
Besides even in your wildest immunosupressed dreams you wouldnt grow NEW hair follicles. We did need follica to know that this was possible. Which they have shown on human scalp skin.
hh
haroldo is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
debris
11.07.2008, 07:01
@ haroldo
|
HOW is Intercytex our best bet ? |
There is more evidence that immuno suppresion in mice grows hair like crazy and thus any experiments involving this mean very little to the expected outcome on an average mpb head. For example the balding follicle experiments, where all it needs to be done to regrow the follicle to thick hair, is to take it and put it onto this immuno suppresed mice.
On top of your head it does not grow anything visible, on the mice its thich hair.
debris is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
debris
11.07.2008, 07:44
@ haroldo
|
HOW is Intercytex our best bet ? |
New or old it does not matter. The point is that mpb scalp has proven to be way more hostile environment then the mice grafts.
Until someone replicates it in mpb scalp with a good consistency, I have no reason to start celebrating. All previous treatments failed because of this simple thing. IE Worked on mice, failed on mpb head.
debris is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
cal
11.07.2008, 10:28
@ debris
|
HOW is Intercytex our best bet ? |
By the way Debris, I think you misinterpreted my comment that ICX wouldn't grow new hairs on mice back there.
I was pointing out that the mouse skin grafts didn't HAVE any follicles on them before the Folica experiments were done on them.
I was saying that with ICX-TRC, I really doubt the DP cell injections alone would have caused anything cosmetically significant to grow on the skin graft "blanks." I'm not calling ICX's project fraudulent, I'm just calling it pretty ineffective at generating new follicles.
As for the immunosuppression, we'll know soon one way or the other.
For my money, the Gentifib cancer patient case and the well-known minor regrowth effects of wounding are enough to make me think it will probably work.
cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
mjones
11.07.2008, 13:54
@ debris
|
HOW is Intercytex our best bet ? |
» » But give ICX an immunosuppressed mouse with a human skin graft on its
» back,
» » and chances are they'll probably still grow nothing at all.
»
» I seriously doubt so. They are not frauders. You can be sure they tested
» it in mice and it grew good hair there. In fact there are even pre ICX
» papers that describe exactly that. It works in mice. The problem is, that
» it always works only in mice.
»
» BTW we have seen that it somehow worked in human as well. One of the
» pictures they released shows quite remarkable regrowth and thickening of
» the hair.
Dude this stuff works..and it works really well..like NW1 capabilites...they cant release any info out..its business..HT industry would get destroyed.think about..let these guys do their jobs..once they get partnership with HT companies and all the tricks are fixed...then watch by 2010 we will 2 new competitors out..Intercytex Vs Follica....every company needs a competitor.....
mjones is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
benji
11.07.2008, 16:02
@ cal
|
HOW is Intercytex our best bet ? |
» By the way Debris, I think you misinterpreted my comment that ICX wouldn't
» grow new hairs on mice back there.
»
»
» I was pointing out that the mouse skin grafts didn't HAVE any follicles on
» them before the Folica experiments were done on them.
»
» I was saying that with ICX-TRC, I really doubt the DP cell injections
» alone would have caused anything cosmetically significant to grow on the
» skin graft "blanks." I'm not calling ICX's project fraudulent, I'm just
» calling it pretty ineffective at generating new follicles.
»
»
»
»
»
» As for the immunosuppression, we'll know soon one way or the other.
»
» For my money, the Gentifib cancer patient case and the well-known minor
» regrowth effects of wounding are enough to make me think it will probably
» work.
EXACTLY!!!
benji is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
debris
12.07.2008, 02:21
(edited by debris, 12.07.2008, 02:53)
@ benji
|
HOW is Intercytex our best bet ? |
Any experiment that involves mice is clearly not proving that it will grow on a mpb head.
On the other hand, that gefinitib guy makes me think that the gefinitib + wounding, really could work on a mpb head.
Personally I give it less then 20% that anyone will replicate the gefinitib guy's success before 2 years from now on. Still worth trying. I'm interested in obtaining the drug myself as well.
Also fairly biggest chance is now. The first few guys are cruicial. If they grow some good coverage, we are cured soon. If they don't, then we are back to endless waiting and experiments may take a damn while so better be prepared not to give up and not to let your mood to swing.
For the short term the lithium wounding is closed case. At least for me. The best what ppl report is some half vellous half terminal hair. They hope it will improve over time. But because I did end my wounding experiments ages ago, and thus I know they grow half terminal hair for me no matter how many times I redo them over the area, I just do not think that lithium is going to be any better than just the old needling experiments. It either is lithium + something else as well, or something else (EGF inhibitor) on its own is the key. Of course everyone is different, so please feeel free to try lithium 10 times before you give up.
My test area were temples, the best I got was when the semi terminal hair grew more then 1 cm long (that was last winter), since then they faded back a bit, now they are growing again longer. They basically are vellous hair that has pigment, so its pigmented a bit longer then usual, but still thin and vellous hair. Again, I did bring it here ages ago, no one listened. In my opinion the wounding itself is really working a bit. Not too get us excited though. Temples are pretty damn hard to regrow even vellous hair. From this point of view the wounding is success and I admit It may work even a bit better at the back of your head.
What is interesting though is that this thin hair in my temples has survived without wounding for more then a year already. They were on their best the last winter, since then I did loads of experiments and though the rest of my hair has greatly thickened, the temples suffered. The wounding hair is still there though.
I have superb digital camera I could take pics. I don't want to do it because it will just put you off They would be visible, but really far from anything useful. When other guys post their lithium images, I expect to see the same and please do not bash the images when you see them. If you expect that we will find a procedure that grows thick coverage in few weeks then you are a bit naive. It will take a lot of time and odds are that we'll fail.
If I'm wrong here about what we are going to see from the lithium bandwagon I may reconsider lithium. But for now due to my personal experience with wounding that delivered pretty much the same results (at least from what I read it looks that they describe something very familiar to me) I'm after gefinitib only.
PS: growing hair in an immunosupressed mice does not prove anything really. ICX grew thick hair in immunosupressed mice as well. Don't you remember the old photographs? Some guys here were arguing its human scalp, some were saying its a photo of someones hand, and most of us said its mice. It was a mice and it had nice thick bulb of ICX hair on it.
debris is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
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