Baccy
10.07.2008, 13:47 |
Wounding...How long on the topicals? (Hair Multiplication & Research) |
Im on Day 9 post wounding. I started on the topicals and also taking orally on Day 3. How long do I continue inhibiting EGF and promoting wnt? Is there a point past which it would be detrimental to continue EGF inhibition and wnt promotion? I'd be grateful for any input guys.
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TAGOHL
10.07.2008, 15:00
@ Baccy
|
Wounding...How long on the topicals? |
» Im on Day 9 post wounding. I started on the topicals and also taking orally
» on Day 3. How long do I continue inhibiting EGF and promoting wnt?
A couple of line items from my notes from the latest patent:
"Newly created follicles in mice lacked pigment, except when the WNT pathway was inhibited during the first 9 days after wounding."
"In mice, WNT supression for 9 days immediately after abrasion produced pigmented follicles, but continued suppression of WNT for > 9 days inhibited new hair follicle formation."
The number of days you should supress EGF isn't clearly spelled out (they give a range), but around 10 days seems to be reasonable based on the verbage. You start inhibiting EGF several days after wounding, depending on how much the wound has reepithelialized. So, if you wound on day 0, you might start EGF inhibitors on day 4, for example, and then stop on day 14.
TAGOHL is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
TAGOHL
10.07.2008, 15:35
@ TAGOHL
|
This is where it gets complicated |
In terms of WNT, the patent talks about suppressing it, and then inducing it.
In mice, if you want to create *pigmented* hair follicles, you suppress WNT immediately after wounding and during re-epithelialization, and then you induce WNT from that point on.
So, the protocol would be this:
1) Wound
2) Inhibit WNT immediately.
3) After several days, stop inhibiting WNT, and start inhibiting EGF.
Personally, I am not going to try to mess with the WNT pathway. Whether I get pigmented hair or not, we'll see (whether I get ANY hair or not, we'll see).
TAGOHL is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
debris
10.07.2008, 15:41
@ TAGOHL
|
This is where it gets complicated |
» In terms of WNT, the patent talks about suppressing it, and then inducing
» it.
»
» In mice, if you want to create *pigmented* hair follicles, you suppress
» WNT immediately after wounding and during re-epithelialization, and then
» you induce WNT from that point on.
»
» So, the protocol would be this:
»
» 1) Wound
» 2) Inhibit WNT immediately.
» 3) After several days, stop inhibiting WNT, and start inhibiting EGF.
»
» Personally, I am not going to try to mess with the WNT pathway. Whether I
» get pigmented hair or not, we'll see (whether I get ANY hair or not, we'll
» see).
interesting, so it looks like that for ideal protocol we'd like to have WNT inhibitor (to be taken first 9 days), EGF inhibitor (taken from day 9 and later) and something that increases WNT (taken from day 9 and later).
EGF inhibitor proved to work for this is clearly gefinitib and I'm sure someone will get that at some point
How about the WNT stuff? lithium to promote WNT.
How about that WNT inhibitor?
debris is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
cal
10.07.2008, 15:44
@ TAGOHL
|
This is where it gets complicated |
I'd be surprised of any humans get colorless follicles, unless maybe the rest of their scalp hair was already grey/white from age.
The hair characteristics, including color, curl, thickness, direction, and density, ALL come from the skin's DNA.
I suspect that the color issues in the tests were just a product of the fact that they were messing with skin grafts and not live humans.
cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
TAGOHL
10.07.2008, 16:35
@ debris
|
This is where it gets complicated |
» interesting, so it looks like that for ideal protocol we'd like to have
» WNT inhibitor (to be taken first 9 days), EGF inhibitor (taken from day 9
» and later) and something that increases WNT (taken from day 9 and later).
Yes, at least in mice. In humans, it's unknown (except to maybe Follica) whether suppression of WNT is required to create pigmented hair follicles. If you didn't care about pigment, or it's not required, you could skip the WNT suppression altogether.
By the way, the "9 days" in your example (and in my notes) represents the number of days it takes the wound to re-epithialize. It could be 3 days, 4 days, 10 days, etc. For those doing the experiment at home, you'll have to monitor the wound to tell when it's done re-epithializing, at which time you apply the EGF inhibitor (and stop inhibiting WNT...if that's part of the protocol).
With regard to actually enhancing WNT activity post re-epithializeation, it's unclear whether there is a benefit to explicitly doing this if you are going to inhibit EGF. Perhaps inhibiting EGF automatically induces an increase in WNT activity -- someone with a strong knowledge of EGF-WNT interactions may be able to answer this. Given that the latest patent only utilizes EGF inhibitors and not WNT inducers, simply inhibiting EGF alone appears to be enough, whether or not it ultimately increases WNT activity.
» How about the WNT stuff? lithium to promote WNT.
I'm not sure we need to induce WNT if we're inhibiting EGF, but if one wanted to induce WNT, lithium may be a possibility.
» How about that WNT inhibitor?
As far as drugs or supplements you can buy to do this, it beats me. The patent talks about naturally occuring proteins in your body that inhibit WNT.
TAGOHL is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
omgIamBald
10.07.2008, 17:02
@ cal
|
Even if we do get white hair |
I will still be very happy as long as if I can get a NW1 density. (and I believe many other ppl will think same as me)
this may sound like i am being a crybaby but..
all I want is
1. follica-method treatment 2015 or before.
2. decent density (NW1..)
god I need hair..
» I'd be surprised of any humans get colorless follicles, unless maybe the
» rest of their scalp hair was already grey/white from age.
»
» The hair characteristics, including color, curl, thickness, direction, and
» density, ALL come from the skin's DNA.
»
»
» I suspect that the color issues in the tests were just a product of the
» fact that they were messing with skin grafts and not live humans.
omgIamBald is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
debris
10.07.2008, 17:25
@ omgIamBald
|
Even if we do get white hair |
yeah  I don't care about color as well. NW1 would be ultimate cure. Damn. I guess we have to pray a lot more
debris is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
debris
10.07.2008, 17:27
@ TAGOHL
|
I'm not english. What exactly is re-epithalizing? |
And how can anyone tell that it has just finished?
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TAGOHL
10.07.2008, 17:46
@ TAGOHL
|
how long to wait... |
» By the way, the "9 days" in your example (and in my notes) represents the
» number of days it takes the wound to re-epithialize. It could be 3 days, 4
» days, 10 days, etc. For those doing the experiment at home, you'll have to
» monitor the wound to tell when it's done re-epithializing, at which time
» you apply the EGF inhibitor (and stop inhibiting WNT...if that's part of
» the protocol).
Here's how you can detect re-epithelialization (and hence when to start inhibiting EGF). This description is from the patent:
"Reepithelialization can be detected through inspection of the new epidermis where covering of the wound area by keratinocytes indicates reepithelialization. The presence of a keratinocytes can be seen with the naked eye as a white, glossy, shiny surface that gradually covers the open wound."
How long it takes to re-epithelialize is going to vary a little bit from person to person, based on that person's physiology (some people heal quicker than others), how large and deep the wound was (and related to this, what wounding technique was used), and probably environmental factors. What this means for home experimentors is that there's no magic number (in terms of days) for when you should start applying the topicals...it's going to be (or may be) different for each one of us.
TAGOHL is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
cal
10.07.2008, 17:54
@ debris
|
I'm not english. What exactly is re-epithalizing? |
I'll say it again, I really think all this WNT pathway stuff is the wrong road (for us) to be chasing right now.
It's very clear that if Folica's whole plan is to work, then just the oral EGF-R inhibition from day #4-12 HAS TO grow new follicles ALONE.
Anything else we add on is not 100% necessary to seeing new hair follicle #1, but it IS still a risk to foul-up the growth of new hair follicle #1.
We can spend the next six months trying everything in the patents, but if it doesn't work, then WE WON'T KNOW WHY IT DIDN'T WORK. We won't know whether the whole Folica deal is a bust, or if Folica actually does work but we added one too many bonus-topicals into our homemade testing that fouled it up.
cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Baccy
10.07.2008, 18:00
@ TAGOHL
|
Wounding...How long on the topicals? |
Well I didn't suppress the wnt before promoting it but regarding coming off the EGF inhibition, going by your ten day guideline, that would make it Day 13 for me. 11th July is Day 10. Do you think I should drop the wnt promoter (lithium) at the same time as I drop the inhibitor (milk thistle) on Day 13? And then maybe continue with minox and caffeine thereafter?
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Baccy is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
TAGOHL
10.07.2008, 18:03
@ TAGOHL
|
Random thoughts |
There's really two phases involved in Follica's procedure:
1) The time from the point of wounding to the time of re-epithelialization.
2) After re-epithelialization.
The real action, in terms of hair follicle creation, happens after re-epithelialization (phase 2). This is the point we will be intervening with our topicals (assuming we're not interested in suppressing Wnt).
The more I think about it, the more I think it's not terribly important to worry about contacting the wound with benign substances like shampoo in the days following woudning. As long as we let the body heal the wound on its own, I think we're good to go. Like I said, the real stuff happens after re-epithelialization, anyway.
TAGOHL is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
TAGOHL
10.07.2008, 18:30
@ cal
|
I'm not english. What exactly is re-epithalizing? |
» I'll say it again, I really think all this WNT pathway stuff is the wrong
» road (for us) to be chasing right now.
In my case, I am going to keep it simple: wounding + gefitinib, that's it. A couple of areas where I am deviating from the patent:
1) I am not going to depilate before wounding. I would if I *knew* Follica's procedure worked -- depilation does greatly increase the number of new follicles created. But I don't want to pluck my hairline and then have no results to show for it.
2) I am going to shampoo after wounding. This is not necessarily forbidden in the patent, although they hint that you should 'optionally' not contact the wound with anti-infectives, which I guess in a broad sense includes cleansing.
I think the major differences between the guys who are trying this at home are:
1) The wounding technique. Some are using sandpaper, others are using chemical peels (the patent mentions both as options). I am sure some guys are wounding deeper than others, and that the wounds are different sizes.
2) Inhibitors. Some are using natural EGF inhibitors, and some are using synthetic EGF inhibitors. And some are not using EGF inhibitors at all, but instead are using Wnt promotors (e.g., lithium).
TAGOHL is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
MPB
10.07.2008, 18:46
@ TAGOHL
|
how long to wait... |
» factors. What this means for home experimentors is that there's no magic
» number (in terms of days) for when you should start applying the
» topicals...it's going to be (or may be) different for each one of us.
What tropicals are you talking about? I thought the consensus was to use oral EGF-R inhibitors only after re-epithelialization?
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MPB is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Mr.Fantastic
10.07.2008, 18:55
@ TAGOHL
|
I'm not english. What exactly is re-epithalizing? |
» » I'll say it again, I really think all this WNT pathway stuff is the
» wrong
» » road (for us) to be chasing right now.
»
» In my case, I am going to keep it simple: wounding + gefitinib, that's it.
» A couple of areas where I am deviating from the patent:
»
» 1) I am not going to depilate before wounding. I would if I *knew*
» Follica's procedure worked -- depilation does greatly increase the number
» of new follicles created. But I don't want to pluck my hairline and then
» have no results to show for it.
»
» 2) I am going to shampoo after wounding. This is not necessarily forbidden
» in the patent, although they hint that you should 'optionally' not contact
» the wound with anti-infectives, which I guess in a broad sense includes
» cleansing.
»
» I think the major differences between the guys who are trying this at home
» are:
»
» 1) The wounding technique. Some are using sandpaper, others are using
» chemical peels (the patent mentions both as options). I am sure some guys
» are wounding deeper than others, and that the wounds are different sizes.
»
» 2) Inhibitors. Some are using natural EGF inhibitors, and some are using
» synthetic EGF inhibitors. And some are not using EGF inhibitors at all, but
» instead are using Wnt promotors (e.g., lithium).
Did you start yet?
Mr.Fantastic is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
TAGOHL
10.07.2008, 19:23
@ Mr.Fantastic
|
I'm not english. What exactly is re-epithalizing? |
» Did you start yet?
No, not yet. I'm going to do it around the end of this month, if all goes well.
TAGOHL is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
TAGOHL
10.07.2008, 19:27
@ MPB
|
how long to wait... |
» What tropicals are you talking about? I thought the consensus was to use
» oral EGF-R inhibitors only after re-epithelialization?
Almost for sure, Follica is going to formulate the EGF-R inhibitors as topicals. The patent goes into quite a bit of detail on topical solutions.
The patent also mentions that you can take the EGF-R inhibitors orally, as an option.
TAGOHL is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
TAGOHL
10.07.2008, 19:32
@ Baccy
|
Wounding...How long on the topicals? |
» Do you think I should drop the wnt promoter
» (lithium) at the same time as I drop the inhibitor (milk thistle) on Day
» 13?
Personally, I would drop them both when the time is up. Their job will be done.
» And then maybe continue with minox and caffeine thereafter?
Did you use the minox with lithium and the milk thistle? You could have. Minoxidil increases new follicle generation after abrasion. Continuing on probably couldn't hurt...it would be similar to applying it to a baldness-prone part of the scalp.
TAGOHL is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Amilcar
10.07.2008, 19:36
@ Baccy
|
Something is going wrong with our trials |
It seems that the board is producing one unique procedure to follow. According to me thats the wrong way to move. We certainly need to pursue "different" strategies for different trialers, for instance some need to test the WNT inhibition then the WNT promotion others should only do the EGFR inhibition and leaving the WNT pathways for the body . Later on we can compare the results and judge according to them. Finally dont forget that Baccy had already some kind of "positive" results. So MAY BE we only need something like 2 more trialers confirming that to have the proof of concept for this procedure .Hence, we need to go into the optimization road of this procedure.
Best Regards.
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Baccy
10.07.2008, 19:42
@ TAGOHL
|
Wounding...How long on the topicals? |
»
» Did you use the minox with lithium and the milk thistle? You could have.
» Minoxidil increases new follicle generation after abrasion. Continuing on
» probably couldn't hurt...it would be similar to applying it to a
» baldness-prone part of the scalp.
I've not introduced minox yet due to the alcohol content and the possiblity of this interfering with the natural healing ie: acting as an antiseptic. My current plan is to introduce minox into the topical at about Day 12.
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benji
10.07.2008, 22:19
(edited by benji, 10.07.2008, 22:25)
@ Baccy
|
Excerpts from the patent |
In EXAMPLE 14 in the patent, with mice, the EGF-receptor inhibitor was injected in the center of the wound after re-epilithialization (which is longer in mice than it is in humans---day 11 in this instance). It resulted in more and larger hair follicles.
In EXAMPLE 7 of the patent, the one with human skin growing human hair, hair germs were detected on day 7. We notice they admit that the adjuvants (EGF-inhibitor, etc.) can be placed on the skin as early as Day 3. The depth of the wound will obviously play a big role in how soon your skin re-epilithializes. As TAGOHL pointed out, when the keratinocytes cover the wound, I suppose its time to start blocking EGF. Its going to be difficult to say for certain since this will be hair in people's hairlines though. If we had precision wounding instruments like Follica will have, we could probably calibrate them to produce a wound only as deep as necessary and the epilithialization would take place on a certain day if your dermal characteristics were normal...........
■ after completion of the reepithelialization process (e.g., 3-12 days, or 9- 11 days after having disrupted the skin)...
SUNBURN....
"...or through any method that results in disturbing the intactness of the epidermis or epidermal layer including burning (e.g., by inducing a [b]sunburn) or perforating the epidermis or epidermal -layer[/b]" ....I suppose the Getfitinib guy with the regrowth might have done this afterall..
How to handle the wound post-wounding....
"Optionally, the skin, following the epidermal disruption, is not contacted for a period of time with any substance (e.g., ointment, a bandage, or a device) that is normally administered to an abrasion or wound to prevent infection.
Here the skin is not contacted with any substance until, for example, the ■ •■ - epidermal disruption -has healed (e.g., any time between 2 days and 3 weeks). Alternatively, the skin can be contacted with a cast or bandage (e.g., resulting in increased blood flow to the disrupted skin or decreased transdermal water loss or decreased mass transfer of gases into the skin and from the skin (e.g. oxygen, carbon dioxide, water vapor), decreased heat transfer from the skin (e.g. resulting in an increased temperature of the skin surface) or increased pressure on the skin."
That seems to me pretty straight forward. I suppose one could say "soap" is something put on a wound to prevent infection. Im going to err on the side of caution and try to not let soap hit the wound until it at least re-epilithializes myself, but hope others that wash anyway have growth (believe me, I hate not being able to not wash anything and would much rather be able to).
"The disruption of the epidermis can be induced between 3-12 days (e.g., 4-12, 5-12, 4-11, 6-11, 6-10, 6-9, 7-8, 5-11, 5-10, or 7-10 days) prior to the addition of the compositions of the invention."
Thats about it. Ive depilated, and three days later abraded. On Monday morning, I suppose I'll be taking milk thistle extract. Im on dutasteride now. I'll also apply minox AROUND (but not directly on) the wounds monday. Im going to use them for a good seven or eight days or so for certain. Hair germs were detected in human skin by day 7 post-wounding, so this gives me a little more time.
benji is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
benji
10.07.2008, 22:28
@ cal
|
This is where it gets complicated |
» I'd be surprised of any humans get colorless follicles, unless maybe the
» rest of their scalp hair was already grey/white from age.
»
» The hair characteristics, including color, curl, thickness, direction, and
» density, ALL come from the skin's DNA.
»
»
» I suspect that the color issues in the tests were just a product of the
» fact that they were messing with skin grafts and not live humans.
this is what Im thinking.............the getfitinib's guy's growth was pigmented.....of course thats assuming EDIHN took place with him and not some fantastic hypertrichotic effect of getfitinib that no one knows about heretofore. Ive never seen someone have regrowth on frontal baldness like that after such a long time of being bald. Not in the front. Im assuming that EDIHN hair.
benji is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
cal
10.07.2008, 22:36
@ benji
|
This is where it gets complicated |
» this is what Im thinking.............the getfitinib's guy's growth was
» pigmented.....of course thats assuming EDIHN took place with him and not
» some fantastic hypertrichotic effect of getfitinib that no one knows about
» heretofore. Ive never seen someone have regrowth on frontal baldness like
» that after such a long time of being bald. Not in the front. Im assuming
» that EDIHN hair.
Here's the color issue that I'm really trippin' off of:
The guy's existing hair looks like it was originally brown but is well into the salt & pepper stage of graying.
It's hard to tell from just the pic we've got, but the new hairs look ALL the dark brown color to me.
I see NO GRAY HAIRS in the new stuff, unlike what's on the rest of his head.
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follicawork!
New York City,
11.07.2008, 00:41
@ cal
|
well? |
well so whats happening so far?? trialers?
follicawork! is located in NEW YORK CITY and he is available to meet: NO |
follicawork!
New York City,
11.07.2008, 00:42
@ follicawork!
|
well? |
if it works extremly well ill pay money to the guy that got the best results to do it to me some motivation for ya lol
follicawork! is located in NEW YORK CITY and he is available to meet: NO |
cal
11.07.2008, 10:36
@ follicawork!
|
well? |
As for the post-wounding period before starting topicals:
Isn't there a relatively consistent message in these patents that 3-5 days is the window they think is right (for live humans)?
It seems like we're overthinking this a bit. We're using this stuff for a week and a half. IMO, starting the drugs 24 hours early or late doesn't sound likely to be a huge deal-breaker.
cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
TAGOHL
11.07.2008, 11:35
@ cal
|
well? |
» As for the post-wounding period before starting topicals:
»
» Isn't there a relatively consistent message in these patents that 3-5 days
» is the window they think is right (for live humans)?
They actually give a range in the patent. I'll have to check my notes, but the range is about 3 days to a few weeks. They mention ranges repeatedly, in fact. How long you should actually wait depends on the wound and how long it takes to re-epithialize.
I think the "embryonic window" opens after re-epithialization. That is, the window is relative to re-epithialization (the time to reach that is variable, depending on the wound and the person), and not when the wounding was actually done (which is more a constant amount of time).
» It seems like we're overthinking this a bit. We're using this stuff for a
» week and a half. IMO, starting the drugs 24 hours early or late doesn't
» sound likely to be a huge deal-breaker.
I don't know what happens if you start a little early. It's something that I've been wondering about. If you start too late, you'll miss the window. If you start a little late, you may not get the full effect. In this scenario, I don't know what the definition of 'early' or 'late' or 'a little' is. Maybe a day either way is inconsequential. But I would still base the start time on the status of the wound (as much as you can, anyway), rather than on some constant amount of time.
TAGOHL is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
cal
11.07.2008, 12:01
@ TAGOHL
|
well? |
Yeah, I agree. Your own injured skin would be the thing to believe over any patented timeline that somebody typed on paper.
But how would you even call it?
I've already given myself dermabrasion-deep wounds last fall just goofing around. I watched it heal up with some curiosity at the time, but I still don't remember a lot of specific appearances & stages of the healing process very well looking back.
It was all just F-ed up skin as I recall. It turned very red about a day or two after the injury, peeled in a few more days, and the new skin looked pink & tender for a couple of weeks. That's the best I can recall.
cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Meh
11.07.2008, 12:49
@ TAGOHL
|
This is where it gets complicated |
» » How about that WNT inhibitor?
»
» As far as drugs or supplements you can buy to do this, it beats me. The
» patent talks about naturally occuring proteins in your body that inhibit
» WNT.
Dont mind some input from a random person....I lurk alot more than I post
Ive been looking alot into this patent as well and will be trialling it with some herbal remedies myself soon.
As for the WNT inhibitor, may I suggest green tea?
http://www.jbc.org/cgi/content/abstract/281/16/10865
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Baccy
11.07.2008, 13:05
@ Meh
|
This is where it gets complicated |
» As for the WNT inhibitor, may I suggest green tea?
»
» http://www.jbc.org/cgi/content/abstract/281/16/10865
»
You need to PROMOTE wnt not inhibit it. Green tea inhibits both EGF (required) and wnt (most undesirable) which is why I didn't choose it as an EGF inhibitor. I'm using milk thistle to inhibit EGF and lithium to promote wnt.
Baccy has 1 Personal Journal(s). Click here to view
Baccy is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Meh
11.07.2008, 13:15
@ Baccy
|
This is where it gets complicated |
» » As for the WNT inhibitor, may I suggest green tea?
» »
» »
» http://www.jbc.org/cgi/content/abstract/281/16/10865
» »
»
» You need to PROMOTE wnt not inhibit it. Green tea inhibits both EGF
» (required) and wnt (most undesirable) which is why I didn't choose it as an
» EGF inhibitor. I'm using milk thistle to inhibit EGF and lithium to promote
» wnt.
That's what I thought and that's what I'm looking at doing. The post I was replying to was discussing the prospect of inhibiting it immediately, hence I put forward that idea.
On another note, just a quick thanks for your effort in your trials and all the best.
Meh is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
debris
11.07.2008, 13:24
@ Meh
|
This is where it gets complicated |
That wnt inhibitor was for an advanced version where first few days you'd inhibit wnt in order to encourage the hair to grow coloured.
I do not think that it is necessary though. The gefinitib guy did not do any wnt stuff and still grew hair.
debris is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
TAGOHL
11.07.2008, 14:19
@ cal
|
well? |
» I've already given myself dermabrasion-deep wounds last fall
»
» But how would you even call it?
That's one thing I have to research and figure out. The patent says that re-epithialization can be observed by the naked eye, as the wound becomes shiny, white, or glossy, or something like that. But I normally don't see that in the wounds I get from time to time. Maybe I haven't been looking closely enough.
The reason why I said I wondered what happens if you start the meds a little early is because I am not sure if I will be able tell from sight exactly when to start taking them. But maybe you're right and a day or so either way is not that big a deal. Still, I am going to try to time it as best I can according to the wound. I'll probably buy a cheap magnifying glass and read up some more on wound healing.
TAGOHL is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
mjones
11.07.2008, 15:18
@ Amilcar
|
Something is going wrong with our trials |
» It seems that the board is producing one unique procedure to follow.
» According to me thats the wrong way to move. We certainly need to pursue
» "different" strategies for different trialers, for instance some need to
» test the WNT inhibition then the WNT promotion others should only do the
» EGFR inhibition and leaving the WNT pathways for the body . Later on we can
» compare the results and judge according to them. Finally dont forget that
» Baccy had already some kind of "positive" results. So MAY BE we only need
» something like 2 more trialers confirming that to have the proof of concept
» for this procedure .Hence, we need to go into the optimization road of this
» procedure.
»
» Best Regards.
Hey Guys! I wouldnt try this stuff at home..it wont work..they have a freaking lab at a very credential university..plus the main component or procudure wont be available to us commoners...they can make hair grow we cant....so i wouldnt expect anyone but them to do this right..unless u work with them and got insider info....lol
mjones is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
chincheto
11.07.2008, 15:36
@ TAGOHL
|
how long to wait... |
» "Reepithelialization can be detected through inspection of the new
» epidermis where covering of the wound area by keratinocytes indicates
» reepithelialization. The presence of a keratinocytes can be seen with the
» naked eye as a white, glossy, shiny surface that gradually covers the open
» wound."
![[image]](http://www.sellerstar.net/pierna1.jpg)
This is 24 hours before abrasion. See the white part of the circle. Could this be reepithelialization? I destroy my skin to the dermis and the day before I do I found that the skin was like scalp, instead of pigmented skin. Now I got a crust. Sorry for the quality of the pic.
chincheto is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Amilcar
11.07.2008, 15:47
@ debris
|
This is where it gets complicated |
» That wnt inhibitor was for an advanced version where first few days you'd
» inhibit wnt in order to encourage the hair to grow coloured.
»
» I do not think that it is necessary though. The gefinitib guy did not do
» any wnt stuff and still grew hair.
Are you sure Debris ! The Wnt inhibition might turn to be crucial for the size of the new hair or the count or something else.In patents they deliberately ignore certain details or even give misguiding information. Who knows !
Amilcar is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
debris
11.07.2008, 15:58
@ chincheto
|
how long to wait... |
» » "Reepithelialization can be detected through inspection of the new
» » epidermis where covering of the wound area by keratinocytes indicates
» » reepithelialization. The presence of a keratinocytes can be seen with
» the
» » naked eye as a white, glossy, shiny surface that gradually covers the
» open
» » wound."
»
»
»
» This is 24 hours before abrasion. See the white part of the circle. Could
» this be reepithelialization? I destroy my skin to the dermis and the day
» before I do I found that the skin was like scalp, instead of pigmented
» skin. Now I got a crust. Sorry for the quality of the pic.
wow it does look like the description.
debris is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
cal
11.07.2008, 19:45
@ debris
|
how long to wait... |
Hey Guys! I wouldnt try this stuff at home..it wont work..they have a freaking lab at a very credential university..plus the main component or procudure wont be available to us commoners...they can make hair grow we cant....so i wouldnt expect anyone but them to do this right..unless u work with them and got insider info....lol
You're simply wrong about that, buddy. The entire procedure is drugs we can already buy and dermabrasion we can have done. They've patented nothing more elaborate than that. Using already-existing drugs is a bedrock foundation of the project.
cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
TAGOHL
11.07.2008, 21:35
@ cal
|
when to inhibit EGF vs. Wnt |
» As for the post-wounding period before starting topicals:
»
» Isn't there a relatively consistent message in these patents that 3-5 days
» is the window they think is right (for live humans)?
»
» It seems like we're overthinking this a bit. We're using this stuff for a
» week and a half. IMO, starting the drugs 24 hours early or late doesn't
» sound likely to be a huge deal-breaker.
Based on Cotsarelis's Nature paper, Wnt upregulation when the wound occurs, and during the re-epithelialization period, does not effect wound closure time (which is good) but does increase the number of new hair follicles created via wounding (which is also good). This is based off the fact that some of the mice were genetically engineered to have Wnt cranked up all the time.
So, if someone was just using Wnt activators, they could start using them at the same time they made the wound, if they wanted to. There's no need to worry about getting the timing just right.
But with EGF inhibitors, the same might not be true. EGF is involved in wound healing, so suppressing it during re-epithelialization could impair the healing process. This is probably something we don't want. So, with the EGF inhibitors, the timing seems more important...you'd want to wait until the wound has re-epithelialized, and then start to inhibit EGF.
TAGOHL is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
debris
12.07.2008, 02:02
@ cal
|
Huh cal? |
» Hey Guys! I wouldnt try this stuff at home..it wont work..they
» have a freaking lab at a very credential university..plus the main
» component or procudure wont be available to us commoners...they can make
» hair grow we cant....so i wouldnt expect anyone but them to do this
» right..unless u work with them and got insider info....lol
»
» You're simply wrong about that, buddy. The entire procedure is drugs we
» can already buy and dermabrasion we can have done. They've patented
» nothing more elaborate than that. Using already-existing drugs is a
» bedrock foundation of the project.
can you explain why you manipulate the board and try to make it look like I said something I never said?
I mean why are you replying to something someone else said but copy and pasting it into a reply to my post? are you nuts?
debris is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
cal
12.07.2008, 02:46
@ debris
|
Huh cal? |
Umm . . . what?
I wasn't even talking to you on that.
I was responding to something that another poster "mjones" said a few posts back up the thread. I simply pasted what HE said, word-for-word, and then responded to it.
My response was never intended to be directed or implied at you whatsoever.
(Are you referring to the fact that I failed to change the "subject" heading on the response away from your topic? I hardly ever look at that on a response. Neither do a lot of people on here.)
cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
debris
12.07.2008, 02:56
@ cal
|
Huh cal? |
Nah, just if you look into the thread view, you'll see you are in fact replying to my post. But you pasted there what mjones said. You also can see @debris at the left side of your post which normally suggests you are replying to something I said.
Whatever forget it
debris is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
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