benji
24.08.2008, 20:42 |
The "stuff" in the Follica patent... (Hair Multiplication & Research) |
I wanna park this here for future reference.....
In yet another particular embodiment of the methods, kits, and compositions of the invention, the EGFR inhibitor (e.g., a small molecule EGFR inhibitor or EGFR antibody) is combined (e.g., administered, formulated, or contained in a kit) with an additional biologically active agent selected from an antihistamine (e.g., mepyramine, diphenhydramine, and antazoline), an anti-inflammatory (e.g., corticosteroids, NTHEs, and COX-2 inhibitors), a retinoid (e.g., 13-cis-retinoic acid, adapalene, all-trans-retinoic acid, and etretinate), an anti-androgen (e.g., finasteride, flutamide, diazoxide, l lalpha-hydroxyprogesterone, ketoconazole, RU58841, dutasteride, fluridil, and QLT-7704), an immunosuppressant (e.g., cyclosporine, tacrolimus, rapamycin, everolimus, and pimecrolimus), a channel opener (e.g., minoxidil, diazoxide, and phenytoin), an antibiotic, and an antimicrobial (e.g., benzyl benzoate, benzalkonium chloride, benzoic acid, benzyl alcohol, butylparaben, ethylparaben, methylparaben, propylparaben, camphorated metacresol, camphorated phenol, hexylresorcinol, methylbenzethonium chloride, cetrimide, chlorhexidine, chlorobutanol, chlorocresol, cresol, glycerin, imidurea, phenol, phenoxyethanol, phenylethylalcohol, phenylmercuric acetate, phenylmercuric borate, phenylmercuric nitrate, potassium sorbate, sodium benzoate, sodium proprionate, sorbic acid, and thiomersal).
In a particular embodiment of the methods, kits, and compositions of the invention, the EGFR inhibitor is administered, formulated, or is part of a kit with an anti-androgen (e.g., finasteride ) and a channel opener (e.g., minoxidil).
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benji
24.08.2008, 20:58
@ benji
|
For Cal.....................something of note in the patent for you.. |
Cal,
These two: (tacrolimus, rapamycin) immunosuppressants can come in topical creams or compositions.
Daphne Zohar said that the two FDA-approved drugs were approved for "other things" and not hair growth.
If you used a EGF-receptor antagonist and a immunosuppressant..............she'd be telling the truth (!).
When you think about it Cal, the all-important series of experiments on human skin on an immunodeficient mice are exactly the same circumstances that would be induced if one was on a immunosuppressant. Basically the mice (plural, because the done the experiment several times according to the patent), is just a life-support system for the skin that was abraded.
If the immunosuppression was alone..........."enough", then the timing really wouldn't matter if any of the vehicles used in the cream didn't interefere (a concern).
I was interested to read one article describing one of the topical immunosuppressants to be helpful with port-wine stains on skin. I wonder how many dermatological maladies (shingles, eczema, etc) are really immunological events due to defective dna experession in whatever skin cells? I cant figure out why suppressing the immune system in an area of the skin would make port wine stains go away if this was not the case......
On the patent......................You know there are several other things covered in the patent that they dont seem to want to use, but they are there. Beta Catenin, ectodysplasin, FGF, and a few others are indeed mentioned. One wonders if what they REALLY are planning to use is one of the hidden variables therein to control density and follicle SIZE. They no doubt have abraded a bunch of mice by this point, using every damned combo possible.
benji is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Z79
25.08.2008, 03:53
@ benji
|
For Cal.....................something of note in the patent for you.. |
let me remind everyone that I used oral antibiotics, topical immunosupresant, topical arava, minox and topical fin for my first experiment with no new hair growth to show for it.
» Cal, » » These two: (tacrolimus, rapamycin) immunosuppressants can come in topical » creams or compositions. » » » » Daphne Zohar said that the two FDA-approved drugs were approved for "other » things" and not hair growth. » » If you used a EGF-receptor antagonist and a » immunosuppressant..............she'd be telling the truth (!). » » » » » » When you think about it Cal, the all-important series of experiments on » human skin on an immunodeficient mice are exactly the same circumstances » that would be induced if one was on a immunosuppressant. Basically the » mice (plural, because the done the experiment several times according to » the patent), is just a life-support system for the skin that was abraded. » » » » If the immunosuppression was alone..........."enough", then the timing » really wouldn't matter if any of the vehicles used in the cream didn't » interefere (a concern). » » » » » » I was interested to read o
Z79 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Mr.Fantastic
25.08.2008, 04:09
@ Z79
|
For Cal.....................something of note in the patent for you.. |
» let me remind everyone that I used oral antibiotics, topical
» immunosupresant, topical arava, minox and topical fin for my first
» experiment with no new hair growth to show for it.
» » Cal, » » These two: (tacrolimus, rapamycin) immunosuppressants can come
» in topical » creams or compositions. » » » » Daphne Zohar said that the two
» FDA-approved drugs were approved for "other » things" and not hair growth.
» » » If you used a EGF-receptor antagonist and a »
» immunosuppressant..............she'd be telling the truth (!). » » » » » »
» When you think about it Cal, the all-important series of experiments on »
» human skin on an immunodeficient mice are exactly the same circumstances
» » that would be induced if one was on a immunosuppressant. Basically
» the » mice (plural, because the done the experiment several times according
» to » the patent), is just a life-support system for the skin that was
» abraded. » » » » If the immunosuppression was alone..........."enough",
» then the timing » really wouldn't matter if any of the vehicles used in the
» cream didn't » interefere (a concern). » » » » » » I was interested to read
» o
Hmmmn... thanks for posting that. I wonder if geftinib instead of arava would make a difference or is there still a point to even try.
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debris
25.08.2008, 06:58
@ Z79
|
For Cal.....................something of note in the patent for you.. |
» let me remind everyone that I used oral antibiotics, topical
» immunosupresant, topical arava, minox and topical fin for my first
» experiment with no new hair growth to show for it.
Well, that does not matter because we alreadky know from a good and reliable source that follica will have the cure ready in 2 months!
http://www.hairsite.com/hair-loss/forum_entry-id-37449-page-0-category-1-order-last_answer.html
debris has 1 Personal Journal(s). Click here to view
debris is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
debris
25.08.2008, 06:59
@ Z79
|
For Cal.....................something of note in the patent for you.. |
» let me remind everyone that I used oral antibiotics, topical
» immunosupresant, topical arava, minox and topical fin for my first
anyway Z79. Are you aware of anything that could have spoiled your try?
debris has 1 Personal Journal(s). Click here to view
debris is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
cal
25.08.2008, 10:45
@ debris
|
For Cal.....................something of note in the patent for you.. |
How about Leflunomide's unknown properties when it's applied topically?
The stuff isn't active until the body metabolizes it into the correct thing in the first place. All bets are off as to whether or not topical skin absorption would actually do that.
cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
LatinLover
25.08.2008, 10:57
@ debris
|
For Cal.....................something of note in the patent for you.. |
» » let me remind everyone that I used oral antibiotics, topical
» » immunosupresant, topical arava, minox and topical fin for my first
»
» anyway Z79. Are you aware of anything that could have spoiled your try?
Good point.
Z79: as well how does your experiment compare with e.g. Baccy's (in term of methodology)?
LatinLover is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Baccy
25.08.2008, 11:09
@ LatinLover
|
For Cal.....................something of note in the patent for you.. |
»
» Z79: as well how does your experiment compare with e.g. Baccy's (in term
» of methodology)?
Possibly size of wound. I did the entire scalp. Probably not an option for most of you guys unless you're NW5 and above.
Baccy has 1 Personal Journal(s). Click here to view
Baccy is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Mr.Fantastic
25.08.2008, 11:09
@ debris
|
For Cal.....................something of note in the patent for you.. |
» » let me remind everyone that I used oral antibiotics, topical
» » immunosupresant, topical arava, minox and topical fin for my first
» » experiment with no new hair growth to show for it.
»
» Well, that does not matter because we alreadky know from a good and
» reliable source that follica will have the cure ready in 2 months!
»
» http://www.hairsite.com/hair-loss/forum_entry-id-37449-page-0-category-1-order-last_answer.html
Wait, did I miss something here? Or, is this a joke?
Mr.Fantastic is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
goata007
25.08.2008, 12:18
@ Z79
|
For Cal.....................something of note in the patent for you.. |
» let me remind everyone that I used oral antibiotics, topical
» immunosupresant, topical arava, minox and topical fin for my first
» experiment with no new hair growth to show for it.
how did you abrade your scalp? and how deep? Also, for how long did you applying/use the medications? and I don't see any lithium?
goata007 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO ---
"If we knew what it was that we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?" - Albert Einstein |
LatinLover
25.08.2008, 16:18
(edited by LatinLover, 25.08.2008, 16:31)
@ Baccy
|
For Cal.....................something of note in the patent for you.. |
» »
» » Z79: as well how does your experiment compare with e.g. Baccy's (in
» term
» » of methodology)?
»
» Possibly size of wound. I did the entire scalp. Probably not an option for
» most of you guys unless you're NW5 and above.
Or could it have been the depth of the wound/or the abrasion method?
Since you did the entire scalp Baccy did you notice some "depth irregularities", and a correlation between say deeper abraded area and subsequent result (although I suppose this might have been really difficult to notice!)?
LatinLover is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
benji
25.08.2008, 17:01
@ LatinLover
|
Getfitinib hair growth pics---COMRPOMISED IMMUNE SYSTEMS |
Both of the getfitinib pictures we have seen with the hair growth were with cancer patients. Chemotherapy suppresses (and sometimes almost completely) the immune system. Both of these people likely had chemotherapy, and I thought that one of them had it for sure. Does it make more sense now?
Why do I have a feeling that the two drugs necessary for hair regrowth are going to turn out to be an immunosuppressant and getfitinib. These two drugs aren't approved for hair growth, just like Zohar said.
Just putting a immunosuppressant in a cream wont necessarily do the trick. Topical cyclosporin isn't as effective for androgenic alopecia as internal cyclosporin is. Internal cyclosporin usually has hirsutism as a side effect. Topical cyclosporin was tried for baldness if memory serves, but was only about 20% effective. The immune system is a "body-wide" phenomenon, with T-cells and Killer cells and marker cells going through the blood and lymphatics looking for "foreign" bodies to attack. So just blocking formation of these cells and whatnot in the scalp alone isn't going to keep others from "making their rounds".
For Cal and TAGOHL,
Neither of the two people whom we have seen getfitinib-related hairgrowth were on finasteride or minoxidil. Thats almost a given. But chances are good they had compromised immmuno-capacity from chemotherapy.
This is probably why nobody has had much success with the wounding/natural egf inhibitors or wouding/lithium thusfar other than them using carriers and whatnot that might interefere with the process anyway.
I keep going back to Experiment number 7 and the ENSUING experiments done with human skin grafted to SCID mice. They got hair EVERY TIME according to them. No EGF-Inhibition was needed......................the only difference between these mice acting as "life support" for the human skin grafted to their backs and us is that we have an immune system.
As for why animals can be wounded and regrow hair pretty regularily and we cannot-----pretty simple: Our immune systems are much more evovled than theirs. We all have read Hideo Uno's comparison between Stumptailed Macaque balding and human balding. The lymphocytic infiltrate, the collagenous streamers, the inflammation, the T-cell infiltration. The immune system gets involved in human androgenic (as well as areata) alopecia, but none of that is apparent in ape-balding. Their hair just shrinks. Our whole scalp changes.
I bet this is the "missing link" that would lead to success. The problem is.............................I cant think of anywhere one could get a hold of internal cyclo w/o a prescript. I'd like to be wrong about all of this............but what Zohar said not appears to really make sense. Those two drugs are indeed not for hair, but minox or finas are. The anti-microbial and anti-biotic and anti-inflammatory now make sense also.
benji is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
haveyouseenmyhair?
25.08.2008, 17:18
@ benji
|
Getfitinib hair growth pics---COMRPOMISED IMMUNE SYSTEMS |
» I bet this is the "missing link" that would lead to success. The
» problem is.............................I cant think of anywhere one could
» get a hold of internal cyclo w/o a prescript. I'd like to be wrong about
» all of this............but what Zohar said not appears to really make
» sense. Those two drugs are indeed not for hair, but minox or finas are. The
» anti-microbial and anti-biotic and anti-inflammatory now make sense also.
---------------------------
» It looks as though you can get cyclo here without a perscription...?
»
» http://www.drugdelivery.ca/s47894-s-NEORAL.aspx
»
» I followed it through to the checkout point and it never asked me for
» one....
here is what they say about ordering without a perscription:
Do I require a prescription to order from your company?
You do not need to send us your current prescription when placing orders through our escrow service. Every order that is placed through our company will be first approved by a licensed physician before being sent to the pharmacy for dispatch. Your medical information provided at the time of registration will be verified and your medical needs evaluated to determine by the Physician if treatment is appropriate. After the Physician approves your order, a prescription will be issued and will be sent off to our partner pharmacies for filling and shipment. Providing all the information you supplied during registration is accurate, your medication will be shipped without delay. If the physician has any further questions for you before approving your order, they will contact you directly to resolve the issues. The entire consultation process is free of charge.
Online consultations are a new concept in health care that utilize the Internet to improve patient access to physician care. The patient does not receive a traditional physical exam by the physician, but rather completes an online questionnaire and communicates with the physician using our secure online communication tool or by phone. Although online consultations will never take the place of traditional medicine, they do provide a means for patients to receive treatment for a limited number of conditions that, in certain circumstances, may not require a physical exam.
You could just say you had the exact symptoms needed to be elglible....
haveyouseenmyhair? is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Z79
25.08.2008, 18:05
@ Baccy
|
For Cal.....................something of note in the patent for you.. |
i did wound the entire scalp. deep. i still think I waited too long, 12 days. someone should make a new wound every day for a week and then start treatment, then the window is covered for sure. and Im not saying immunosup is not crucial so feel free trying  » » » » Z79: as well how does your experiment compare with e.g. Baccy's (in » term » » of methodology)? » » Possibly size of wound. I did the entire scalp. Probably not an option for » most of you guys unless you're NW5 and above.
Z79 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Sceptic
25.08.2008, 18:48
@ benji
|
Getfitinib hair growth pics---COMRPOMISED IMMUNE SYSTEMS |
» Both of the getfitinib pictures we have seen with the hair growth were with
» cancer patients. Chemotherapy suppresses (and sometimes almost completely)
» the immune system. Both of these people likely had chemotherapy, and I
» thought that one of them had it for sure. Does it make more sense now?
»
»
»
» Why do I have a feeling that the two drugs necessary for hair regrowth are
» going to turn out to be an immunosuppressant and getfitinib. These two
» drugs aren't approved for hair growth, just like Zohar said.
I don't agree, as they know that the immunosuppressant would never be aproved for a hairloss disorder, I guess, and getfitinib would have to be substituted by a topical equivalent, maybe she meant an antihistaminic ( topical, of course ) ? I don't know.
About cyclosporin : " ... Apart from in transplant medicine, cyclosporin is also used in psoriasis, severe atopic dermatitis and infrequently in rheumatoid arthritis and related diseases, although it is only used in severe cases. It has been investigated for use in many other autoimmune disorders... "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclosporine
Sceptic is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
goata007
25.08.2008, 18:54
@ Z79
|
For Cal.....................something of note in the patent for you.. |
» i did wound the entire scalp. deep. i still think I waited too long, 12
» days. someone should make a new wound every day for a week and then start
» treatment, then the window is covered for sure. and Im not saying immunosup
» is not crucial so feel free trying » » » » Z79: as well how does your
» experiment compare with e.g. Baccy's (in » term » » of methodology)? » »
» Possibly size of wound. I did the entire scalp. Probably not an option for
» » most of you guys unless you're NW5 and above.
12 days is wayyyyy too long...the stem cells would probably have already been converted into epithelial cells, thus not creating any new hair follicles. Since you didn't use lithium = no WNT singaling, that also was a big drawback.
Also, in the latest article, Zohar said that "Scalp disruption is different from dermabrasion". This also implies that wounding need NOT be deep, gentle wounding would suffice.
goata007 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO ---
"If we knew what it was that we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?" - Albert Einstein |
Mr.Fantastic
25.08.2008, 19:19
@ goata007
|
For Cal.....................something of note in the patent for you.. |
» » i did wound the entire scalp. deep. i still think I waited too long, 12
» » days. someone should make a new wound every day for a week and then
» start
» » treatment, then the window is covered for sure. and Im not saying
» immunosup
» » is not crucial so feel free trying » » » » Z79: as well how does
» your
» » experiment compare with e.g. Baccy's (in » term » » of methodology)? »
» »
» » Possibly size of wound. I did the entire scalp. Probably not an option
» for
» » » most of you guys unless you're NW5 and above.
»
» 12 days is wayyyyy too long...the stem cells would probably have already
» been converted into epithelial cells, thus not creating any new hair
» follicles. Since you didn't use lithium = no WNT singaling, that also was a
» big drawback.
»
» Also, in the latest article, Zohar said that "Scalp disruption is
» different from dermabrasion". This also implies that wounding need NOT be
» deep, gentle wounding would suffice.
Yeah, you should applied arava topically 3 days after the first wounding. Why did you do all that and wait 12 days? Can some tell me why it should be 3 days post wounding instead of right after? Can it do any harm if you apply the topical right away instead of waiting 3 days?
Mr.Fantastic is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
benji
25.08.2008, 19:35
@ Sceptic
|
Getfitinib hair growth pics---COMRPOMISED IMMUNE SYSTEMS |
»
» I don't agree, as they know that the immunosuppressant would never be
» aproved for a hairloss disorder,»
Cyclosporin is IN the patent as a possible adjuvant, along with four other immunosuppressants. Its obvious that they are willing to use it if it proves necessary.
It would be approved for the 10 or so days that one would be required to be on it for the hairs to form, that is all. After hair germs were made, one could get back off it---the patent discusses both topical and internal immunosuppressants.
benji is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
goata007
25.08.2008, 19:43
@ goata007
|
Baccy, can you do this??? |
» 12 days is wayyyyy too long...the stem cells would probably have already
» been converted into epithelial cells, thus not creating any new hair
» follicles. Since you didn't use lithium = no WNT singaling, that also was a
» big drawback.
»
» Also, in the latest article, Zohar said that "Scalp disruption is
» different from dermabrasion". This also implies that wounding need NOT be
» deep, gentle wounding would suffice.
Baccy, since you're about to repeat the procedure. Can you maybe divide your head in two zones and then try drugs at different timmings on each side. That way, we'll have a better idea of when to begin drugs after wounding. It is highly unlikely that if you see any regrowth the difference would be considerable enough to look weired, so I don't think there is any downside to this approach. But we could learn more about drug timmings from your experiment.
goata007 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO ---
"If we knew what it was that we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?" - Albert Einstein |
Sceptic
25.08.2008, 19:56
@ benji
|
Getfitinib hair growth pics---COMRPOMISED IMMUNE SYSTEMS |
» »
» » I don't agree, as they know that the immunosuppressant would never be
» » aproved for a hairloss disorder,»
»
»
»
» Cyclosporin is IN the patent as a possible adjuvant, along with four
» other immunosuppressants. Its obvious that they are willing to use it if it
» proves necessary.
» It would be approved for the 10 or so days that one would be required
» to be on it for the hairs to form, that is all.
yes, despite of being only ten days, I insist, I want to see the FDA not making any issues about it
Sceptic is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
benji
25.08.2008, 20:01
@ Sceptic
|
Getfitinib hair growth pics---COMRPOMISED IMMUNE SYSTEMS |
» » »
» » » I don't agree, as they know that the immunosuppressant would never be
» » » aproved for a hairloss disorder,»
» »
» »
» »
» » Cyclosporin is IN the patent as a possible adjuvant, along with
» four
» » other immunosuppressants. Its obvious that they are willing to use it if
» it
» » proves necessary.
»
» it doesn't mean that is going to be aproved
THEY MAY TRY TOPICAL IMMUNOSUPPRESSION FIRST. ROXYTHROMICYN WAS IN TRIALS FOR HAIRLOSS A WHILE BACK. THE PRELIMS LOOKED PRETTY GOOD (ABOUT AS EFFECTIVE AS MINOX). ITS AN IMMUNOSUPPRESSANT»
»
»
» » It would be approved for the 10 or so days that one would be
» required
» » to be on it for the hairs to form, that is all.
»
» yes, despite of being only ten days, I insist, I want to see the FDA not
» making any issues about it
IF IT MAKES HAIR, THE FDA WILL APPROVE IT I ASSURE YOU. 10 DAYS WONT KILL ANYBODY. THATS WHY THE ANTIMICROBIALS, ANTIBACTERIALS, AND ANTIHISTAMINES AND ANTI-INFLAMMATORIES ARE IN THE PATENT. PEOPLE WHO TAKE CYCLO FOR OTHER THINGS (ORGAN REJECTION) HAVE TO TAKE IT FOR MUCH LONGER.
Some of the immunosuppressants in the topical come in creams for topical usage. Follica will no doubt be testing this stuff in people, and they will no doubt find out what works----but if it takes oral cyclosporin, I have no doubt that it will still be approved. If its approved for longer dosage periods for other things, I guarantee you it will be approved for this. Remember, there are bald men at the FDA who would delight in having their hair back
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Dogstar
26.08.2008, 01:47
@ benji
|
Getfitinib hair growth pics---COMRPOMISED IMMUNE SYSTEMS |
I don't know if this has been mentioned on here but the former CEO of Genentech Kirk Raab joined Follica’s executive team, Genentech manufactures erlotinib, the American version of the EGF inhibitor gefitinib.
Dogstar is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Z79
26.08.2008, 04:03
@ Mr.Fantastic
|
For Cal.....................something of note in the patent for you.. |
the patent consistently mentions between 3-14 days post wounding and my arava came late in the mail. i later tried 3 days but without immunos and antibiotic. no result. so early applying and immunos could still work, I may try a third time. » » » i did wound the entire scalp. deep. i still think I waited too long, » 12 » » » days. someone should make a new wound every day for a week and then » » start » » » treatment, then the window is covered for sure. and Im not saying » » immunosup » » » is not crucial so feel free trying » » » » Z79: as well how does » » your » » » experiment compare with e.g. Baccy's (in » term » » of methodology)? » » » » » » » » Possibly size of wound. I did the entire scalp. Probably not an » option » » for » » » » most of you guys unless you're NW5 and above. » » » » 12 days is wayyyyy too long...the stem cells would probably have » already » » been converted into epithelial cells, thus not creating any new hair » » follicles. Since you didn't use lithium = no WNT singaling, that also » was a » » big drawback. » » » » Also, in the latest article, Zohar said that "Scalp disruption is » » different from dermabrasion". This also implie
Z79 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Baccy
26.08.2008, 12:35
@ goata007
|
Baccy, can you do this??? |
»
» Baccy, since you're about to repeat the procedure. Can you maybe divide
» your head in two zones and then try drugs at different timmings on each
» side. That way, we'll have a better idea of when to begin drugs after
» wounding. It is highly unlikely that if you see any regrowth the difference
» would be considerable enough to look weired, so I don't think there is any
» downside to this approach. But we could learn more about drug timmings from
» your experiment.
See my recent post for how I plan to time my next topicals.
http://www.hairsite.com/hair-loss/forum_entry-id-37543-page-0-category-1-order-last_answer.html
Baccy has 1 Personal Journal(s). Click here to view
Baccy is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Baccy
26.08.2008, 12:40
@ goata007
|
Inhibition During wounding |
I think inhibition during wounding. EGF is instrumental in the epithelization process and I think the waiting period is a deliberate red herring that is emphasised by the patent. It does mention inhibition during or before only once. They seem to 'push' the waiting time. I think it's misdirection.
Inhibiting EGF AFTER epithelization would be useless. The cells have already taken their chosen path.
Baccy has 1 Personal Journal(s). Click here to view
Baccy is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
cal
26.08.2008, 15:02
@ Baccy
|
Inhibition During wounding |
Isn't there ANYPLACE that will sell us a topical (or even oral) Cyclo-type drug through the mail?
Surely there's some overseas generic place that will do it?
cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Baccy
26.08.2008, 15:38
@ cal
|
Inhibition During wounding |
» Isn't there ANYPLACE that will sell us a topical (or even oral) Cyclo-type
» drug through the mail?
»
» Surely there's some overseas generic place that will do it?
To be honest, I don't want to phuck with any stuff that can have serious repercussions on your long term bodily health. I'm 43, I don't have hair but I'm very fit. I don't want to jeopardise my fitness only to become a hairy invalid desperately wheezing himself upstairs to bed.
Tannic acid, which I intend to use as my next inhibbitor, has me concerned but as long as I keep concentrations below 5% I should be ok.
Baccy has 1 Personal Journal(s). Click here to view
Baccy is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Mr.Fantastic
26.08.2008, 17:34
(edited by Mr.Fantastic, 26.08.2008, 17:41)
@ Baccy
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Cyclosporine warning label |
Cyclosporine is available in its original form and as another product that has been modified (changed) so that the medication can be better absorbed in the body. Original cyclosporine and cyclosporine (modified) are absorbed by the body in different amounts, so they cannot be substituted for one another. Take only the type of cyclosporine that was prescribed by your doctor. When your doctor gives you a written prescription, check to be sure that he or she has specified the type of cyclosporine you should receive. Each time you have your prescription filled, look at the brand name printed on your prescription label to be sure that you have received the same type of cyclosporine. Talk to your pharmacist if the brand name is unfamiliar or you are not sure you have received the right type of cyclosporine.
Taking cyclosporine or cyclosporine (modified) may increase the risk that you will develop an infection or cancer, especially lymphoma (cancer of a part of the immune system) or skin cancer. This risk may be higher if you take cyclosporine or cyclosporine (modified) with other medications that decrease the functioning of the immune system such as azathioprine (Imuran), cancer chemotherapy, methotrexate (Rheumatrex), sirolimus (Rapamune), and tacrolimus (Prograf). Tell your doctor if you are taking any of these medications, and if you have or have ever had any type of cancer. To reduce your risk of skin cancer, plan to avoid unnecessary or prolonged exposure to sunlight and to wear protective clothing, sunglasses, and sunscreen during your treatment. If you experience any of the following symptoms, call your doctor immediately: sore throat, fever, chills, and other signs of infection; flu-like symptoms; coughing; difficulty urinating; pain when urinating; a red, raised, or swollen area on the skin; new sores or discoloration on the skin; lumps or masses anywhere in your body; night sweats; swollen glands in the neck, armpits, or groin; trouble breathing; chest pain; weakness or tiredness that does not go away; or pain, swelling, or fullness in the stomach.
Cyclosporine and cyclosporine (modified) may cause high blood pressure and kidney damage. Tell your doctor if you have or have ever had high blood pressure or kidney disease. Also tell your doctor if you are taking any of the following medications: amphotericin B (Amphotec, Fungizone); cimetidine (Tagamet); ciprofloxacin (Cipro); colchicine; fenofibrate (Antara, Lipophen, Tricor); gemfibrozil (Lopid); gentamicin; ketoconazole (Nizoral); melphalan (Alkeran); nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory medications such as diclofenac (Cataflam, Voltaren), naproxen (Aleve, Naprosyn), and sulindac (Clinoril); ranitidine (Zantac); tobramycin (Tobi); trimethoprim with sulfamethoxazole (Bactrim, Septra); and vancomycin (Vancocin). If you experience any of the following symptoms, call your doctor immediately: dizziness; swelling of the arms, hands, feet, ankles, or lower legs; fast, shallow breathing; nausea; or irregular heartbeat.
If you have psoriasis, tell your doctor about all the psoriasis treatments and medications you are using or have used in the past. The risk that you will develop skin cancer is greater if you have ever been treated with PUVA (psoralen and UVA; treatment for psoriasis that combines an oral or topical medication with exposure to ultraviolet A light); methotrexate (Rheumatrex) or other medications that suppress the immune system; UVB (exposure to ultraviolet B light to treat psoriasis); coal tar; or radiation therapy. You should not be treated with PUVA, UVB, or medications that suppress the immune system while you are taking cyclosporine (modified) to treat psoriasis.
Keep all appointments with your doctor and the laboratory. Your doctor will order certain lab tests to check your body's response to cyclosporine or cyclosporine (modified).
BTW -- the half-life is about 18 hours (varies from patient to patient)
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Baccy
26.08.2008, 17:49
@ Mr.Fantastic
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Cyclosporine warning label |
Like I say, pretty phucking ominous.
I've fought to get my hair back for 27 years but I don't want to die or suffer serious and permanent damage doing it.
There are lines in the sand and some of them, I just won't cross.
Baccy has 1 Personal Journal(s). Click here to view
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cal
26.08.2008, 18:10
@ Baccy
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Cyclosporine warning label |
If Folica plans on a product then there's a way to do it safely. Just gotta find it.
cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Sceptic
26.08.2008, 18:12
@ Mr.Fantastic
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Cyclosporine warning label |
» Cyclosporine is ...
Not a big deal IMHO, we could die for having it but it doesn't mention anything about going to hell 
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Mr.Fantastic
26.08.2008, 18:26
@ Sceptic
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Cyclosporine warning label |
I'm guessing chances are you can get away with 10-14 days of usage with that short of a half-life, but you never know. Supressing your immune system is no joking matter. It comes in liquid form, maybe a safer way is topically.
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Mr.Fantastic
26.08.2008, 19:14
@ Mr.Fantastic
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Cyclosporine warning label |
There are other avenues to suppress the immune systems but probably not as effective as classes of drugs like cyclo...
don't know if this would work but...
-- Lipitor, Mevacor and Pravachol (statin drugs that suppress the activation of helper t-cells)
-- high doses of alcohol intake, with the exception of red wine, supresses the immune system. It suppresses the ability of white blood cells to multiply.
Mr.Fantastic is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Mr.Fantastic
26.08.2008, 19:25
@ Mr.Fantastic
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Cyclosporine warning label |
Statins And Our Immune System
The pharmaceutical industry has long been attempting to develop a means by which interference with cholesterol production might be achieved farther along the biosynthetic pathway, beyond the point where vital intermediary products such as ubiquinones and dolichols originate. Thus far, their quest has failed. There is reason to believe that such biochemical maneuvering, even if successful for restoring such products may be completely inadequate to address the full spectrum of physiological consequences from statin drug use. Certainly any hormonal consequence from inadequate cholesterol availability, such as testosterone and progesterone deficiency, would remain an issue. And, as Pfreiger has so brilliantly demonstrated, impairment of synapse formation and function in our brain cells from deficient cholesterol manufacture would continue unabated, resulting in the incredible spectrum of cognitive dysfunction. Even if the clever and dedicated researchers of the pharmaceutical industry finally discover a way around these two, very substantial side effects, even greater hurdles exist from our recent evidence that statins work not by cholesterol manipulation but by some basic anti-inflammatory role.
Key to this is a substance known as nuclear factor kappa B. All statins inhibit this vital step in our immune system's ability to defend us from alien forces. Whether by being the recipient of a donor kidney or under attack by bacteria or viruses, our immune system has evolved a defensive strategy in which suppression of inflammation, triggered by nuclear factor kappa B, plays a vital role. Such stimulants to inflammation include the foreign by-products of arterial inflammation and damage. Statin drugs are known to suppress this nuclear factor kappa B (NF-kB) response and thereby open a veritable Pandora's box of unpredictable consequences.
At best, our HMG Co-A reductase inhibitors are blunt instruments and our immuno-defense system is both delicate and complex. During eons of coexistence of our complex multicellular life forms in the midst of competing, simpler unicellular organisms, there have developed many different forms of defensive and offensive strategy - all dealing with the needs of one or the other of these duelling organisms to gain a survival advantage. We have had 3.5 billion years to work out our defense systems against widely diverse challenges and NF-kB is key to all of them. If we thought the complexity of cholesterol manufacture by our body is complex, it's child's play compared to what is involved in anti-infection and immuno-modulation. Now, throw in a statin and try to predict the consequences.
NF-kB in its several forms is known to molecular biologists as a transcription factor and my bringing more than a smattering of this complex subject to your attention would risk losing you from terminal boredom, so skim the following very lightly. I warmed you this is challenging - how could a history of a 3.5 billion year war be otherwise? NF-kB resides in the cytoplasm of each cell in five different forms known to our molecular biologists as family. The offspring of these family members, known as dimers, remain held in check in the cytoplasm by certain inhibitory proteins until a release signal is received, allowing our now activated NF-kB to enter the nucleus of the cell. It is there, in the nucleus, that it completes its mission in life to stimulate genes and manufacture proteins necessary for such diverse tasks as monocyte adhesion, macrophage recruitment, smooth muscle migration and platelet activation, key elements of our defensive inflammatory response.
With so many steps involved, a good strategist could predict many different forms of assault by dedicated viruses, bacteria and other forms of single celled life, for this war is basically that of the monocellular rulers originally dominating life on our planet against we multicellular usurpers. Therefore it should come as no surprise that some of these defenders have managed to gain an advantage over us, their adversary, by inhibiting NF-kB while others succeed by enhancing NF-kB. Others manage both sides of the coin. E. coli, one of our most common infectious agents, prevents NF-kB from entering the nucleus, thereby enabling this ubiquitous organism freer access to our bladder walls and urethras. Through a similar process of checkmate, another common bacteria, Salmonella, inhibits our anti-inflammatory response sufficiently long to allow bacterial colonization of the lining of the gut, giving a decided advantage to "their" side. On the other hand, some Chlamydia organisms, warring against the urogenital systems of both men and women, have evolved a distinct advantage by enhancing our NF-kB, thereby assuring increased survival of infected cells in our urinary and reproductive systems. On a far more serious note, the very common Epstein-Barr virus causing infectious mononucleosis uses NF-kB inhibition to help destroy our protective "T "cells as part of our common teenage "mono" presentation but when it decides to go on a malignant rampage, triggering nasopharyngeal carcinoma and Burkitt's lymphoma, it does so through sustained NF-kB activation. The list goes on and on with other microorganisms and foreign antigens of all kinds, numbering thousands of variations of these basic themes.
So now let us return to statin drugs and their now well-established effect of inhibition of NF-kB. What does this really mean in our ancient struggle with disease organisms and our immune system's competence? It means while taking statins we are likely to be far more susceptible to certain common infectious agents but at the same time may be somewhat more resistive to others. In the case of the Epstein Barr virus, perhaps we will see more " mono" but, fortunately, less nasopharyngeal carcinoma and Burkitt's lymphoma. But the reality is that we do not as yet know because this new statin role of NF-kB inhibition has only just been recognized. The potential for increased risk of both infectious disease and malignancy is there, for both depend upon our immune system's competence. Tossing the statin sledgehammer into this system is perhaps quite comparable in effect to the rampages of "a bull in a China shop" and it is far too soon to tell about most malignant changes. The implications of the very recent drug company promotion of statin drugs for organ transplant recipients and as adjunctive therapy in the treatment of auto-immune diseases are sobering, indeed, for these drugs can only work in this capacity at the risk of causing mischief elsewhere. One must admire the drug companies' ability for "positive spin" on a very alarming proposition, or is it arrogance? One cannot have the one without the other. The sense of cynicism here is overwhelming to me.
Increased cancer deaths among recipients of statin drugs already are being observed. Ravnskov has reported of the recent PROSPER trial that statin therapy increased the incidence of cancer deaths, completely offsetting the slight decrease in deaths from cardiovascular disease. As Dr. Paul Roach predicted in his Weston Price Foundation presentation of May 2003, the Japan Lipid Intervention trial observed excess deaths from malignancy in their so-called statin "hyper-responder" group. Of the 12 cancer deaths reported in this group, whose cholesterols plummeted deeply with statin use, four were from gastric cancer and two were from lung cancer. Although other factors may have played a role, this heightened cancer risk may well be based on loss of immuno-resistance secondary to NF-kB inhibition.
How strange it is that a class of drugs developed solely for the purpose to interfering with the biosynthesis of cholesterol has now been shown to reduce cardiovascular risk by an anti-inflammatory role completely unrelated to cholesterol manipulation. Generally speaking this should be a welcome observation, for atherosclerosis with all of its consequences is based primarily upon inflammation within the arterial walls. Now, however, any optimism we might have had is thoroughly tempered by our growing realization that statin's effect is based upon interference with our most basic immuno defense system. The potential consequences are frightening
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