cal
30.09.2008, 04:55 |
Any suggestions for my next Folica experiment? (Hair Multiplication & Research) |
Okay Benji, Baccy, and everyone else watching us . . . I'm listening to suggestions about what I should try next.
-- Topical? Internal? Combinations of the two?
-- EGF-R?
-- WNT?
-- No washing (not even water) during the healing?
-- Waiting periods after wounding?
I'm ready to kick around ideas for anything to try right now.
The only major thing I'm ruling out entirely is that I won't try a whole bunch of variables at the same time. No "kitchen sink" attempts that don't teach us anything when they don't work.
(And I also don't want to start trying to substitute a lot of cheaper/natural/other drugs in place of the expensive unnatural pharmaceuticals right now. That step can wait until after we nail down exactly how to do this regrowth scheme in the first place.)
cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Baccy
30.09.2008, 07:21
@ cal
|
Any suggestions for my next Folica experiment? |
Maybe some mechanism of inhibiting wnt for a period of time as well as inhibiting EGF? For time period ideas you could have a look at the relevant section of the patent.
Baccy has 1 Personal Journal(s). Click here to view
Baccy is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
cms
30.09.2008, 09:02
@ cal
|
Any suggestions for my next Folica experiment? |
Temovate cream. It is a very strong corticosteroids, which is in the patent.
Two things. EGFR controls the inflammation in the skin. EGFR inhibitors can lead the sebaceous glands connected to hair follicles to increase production of inflammatory mediators. Also, the immune systems will attack the newly formed hair follicle as posters have discussed already. Temovate cream will decrease the inflammation and suppress the immune system.
I would also be on finasteride to reduce DHT. It is my theory that these doing these two things will create a better environment for a new follicle to form. My next attempt will involve Temovate cream.
cms is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Amilcar
30.09.2008, 11:02
@ Baccy
|
Any suggestions for my next Folica experiment? |
» Maybe some mechanism of inhibiting wnt for a period of time as well as
» inhibiting EGF? For time period ideas you could have a look at the relevant
» section of the patent.
I second this, I've this Theory for a while now, I think we need to check it.
Other trials that might be interesting : -(wounding+Wnt activation).
-(Wounding+EGFR inhibition).
-(EGFR inhibition+WNT activation).
-(WNT antagonist+Wnt agonist).
Amilcar is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
p
30.09.2008, 13:00
@ cal
|
Any suggestions for my next Folica experiment? |
» Okay Benji, Baccy, and everyone else watching us . . . I'm listening to
» suggestions about what I should try next.
It would be most interesting if you could replicate Baccy's first successful experiment, perhaps changing one variable slightly. To me it seems like a logical first step in refining the method. Anything radically dfferent is, as you say, analogous to the "kitchen-sink" approach which doesn't really give us a lot of information in most cases.
/p
p is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
coffee
30.09.2008, 14:14
@ cal
|
Any suggestions for my next Folica experiment? |
» Okay Benji, Baccy, and everyone else watching us . . . I'm listening to
» suggestions about what I should try next.
»
» -- Topical? Internal? Combinations of the two?
» -- EGF-R?
» -- WNT?
» -- No washing (not even water) during the healing?
» -- Waiting periods after wounding?
Pre-depilation prior to wounding seems to be one thing that many
(apparently as a result of information one of the patents) have
suggested may be a factor in producing an improvement. I think Baccy
is trying that in his current experiment. It seems like it might be
worth considering/evaluating for a possible step.
Also, I've noticed (not sure it's significant) that one of the
articles I read on Follica seemed to suggest that they're aiming
for a purely topical treatment. I'm not sure if this is
for all of the compounds which would be used and whether the only
reason for this is that they're hoping that this will reduce regulatory
approval requirements, or whether possibly this is actually the method
that they've found is producing the best results with whatever
compounds they are using. It did seem interesting, though.
Not sure anything the execs might slip to the press would provide
very great insight into the actual work is going on (could even
be misleading) but it does seem to be a small organization and
likely that people inside are pretty familiar with what's going
on.
The comment that wounding does not necessarily involve dermabrasion
(I believe that I recall that as well from one of the articles)
seemed interesting as well. What could this possibly mean?
Cell damage by bruising with point pressure? Some type of
needle or lancet use? Flash freezing of a thin layer? Laser
dermabrasion or just perhaps--induction of an internal disruption
at a sub-surface level by focusing the laser in much the same
way as radiation therapy is used without damaging other layers?
Or even determining a way to signal the required activity without
actual wounding?
coffee is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
TheOne
30.09.2008, 15:42
(edited by TheOne, 30.09.2008, 16:16)
@ coffee
|
Any suggestions for my next Folica experiment? |
» The comment that wounding does not necessarily involve dermabrasion
» (I believe that I recall that as well from one of the articles)
» seemed interesting as well. What could this possibly mean?
» Cell damage by bruising with point pressure? Some type of
» needle or lancet use? Flash freezing of a thin layer? Laser
» dermabrasion or just perhaps--induction of an internal disruption
» at a sub-surface level by focusing the laser in much the same
» way as radiation therapy is used without damaging other layers?
» Or even determining a way to signal the required activity without
» actual wounding?
I also read the article where is says wounding doesn't necessarily involve dermabration.
IIRC in some of the mouse experiments they used a couple of diferent methods to disrupt the skin, from a felt wheel to incisional wounds.
Dr. Anderson who is on follicas team is an expert with medical lasers.
Taken from the kit patent:
The state of reepithelialization can be induced. Methods of inducing this state include the disruption of the subject's skin at the location where the compounds of the invention are going to be administered. Disruption can be achieved through abrasion (e.g., the rubbing or wearing away of skin), or through any method that results in disturbing the intactness of the epidermis or epidermal layer including burning (e.g., by inducing a sunburn) or perforating the epidermis or epidermal -layer: The disruption can either result in partial or complete removal of the epidermal layer at the intended location.
The disruption of the epithelial layer can be accomplished, for example, through mechanical, chemical, electromagnetic, electrical, or magnetic means. Mechanical means can be achieved through the use of, for example, sandpaper, a felt wheel, ultrasound, supersonically accelerated mixture of saline and oxygen, tape-stripping, or peels.
Chemical means of disruption of the epidermis can be achieved, for example, using phenol, trichloracetic acid, or ascorbic acid.
Electromagnetic means of disruption of the epidermis can be achieved, for example, by the use of a laser capable of inducing trans-epithelial injury (e.g., a Fraxel laser, a CO2 laser, or an excimer laser). Disruption can also be achieved through, for example, the use of visible, infrared, ultraviolet, radio, or X-ray irradiation.
Electrical or magnetic means of disruption of the epidermis can be achieved, for example, through the application of an electrical current or through electroporation. Electric or magnetic means can also include the induction of an electric or a magnetic field. For example, an electrical current
can be induced in the skin by application of an alternating magnetic field. A radiofrequency power source can be coupled to a conducting element, and the currents that are induced will heat the skin, resulting in an alteration or disruption of the skin. In this embodiment, no external energy transfer is needed in order to cause a disruption
Any of the previously mentioned means of disruption can be used to induce for example, a burn, excision, or microdermabrasion.
Optionally, the skin, following the epidermal disruption, is not contacted for a period of time with any substance (e.g., ointment, a bandage, or a device) that is normally administered to an abrasion or wound to prevent infection.
TheOne is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
cricket
30.09.2008, 16:05
(edited by cricket, 30.09.2008, 16:36)
@ cal
|
Any suggestions for my next Folica experiment? |
I'm not an expert ,just my two cent :
» -- Topical? Internal? Combinations of the two?
I'll go topical gefitinib at medium-high % (5% or above) and nothing else.
In this way :
1)we limit variables
2)no side and we can eliminate the issue about sufficient skin concentration of compound (even if oral drugs imho should done the works too ...)
» -- EGF-R?
yes
» -- WNT?
no ( i mean ,during this attempt ! )
» -- No washing (not even water) during the healing?
i don't think simply washing can drop the process but i don't know..so why take the risk ?
( i mean .. if this isn't a trouble for who try .. i.e. social life or whatever )
» -- Waiting periods after wounding?
Follow Taghol posts.
» The only major thing I'm ruling out entirely is that I won't try a whole
» bunch of variables at the same time. No "kitchen sink" attempts that don't
» teach us anything when they don't work.
Agree.
» (And I also don't want to start trying to substitute a lot of
» cheaper/natural/other drugs in place of the expensive unnatural
» pharmaceuticals right now. That step can wait until after we nail down
» exactly how to do this regrowth scheme in the first place.)
this is very important point imho ; totally agree, go with unnatural and,
if topical, go with medium high concetration .
No pre-depilation also ( confuse results ).
I'm agree with benji, seems very very difficult without professional help..
so we should think only to achieve some new hair.. but with a clear process.
edit :
little note about the issue of topical gefitinib.
I've found a patent which suppose the use of *topical* egfr-inhibitor to limitate
side effects of topical retinoid...there aren't important pratical stuff in the document (from what i can read), also i don't have idea if some company still continue development of such product... but this should prove that is quite possibile to do.
edit2:
sorry i've missed the immune-system issue.
We need to drop out that, so tacrolimus is indicated (but you can also
use corticost. or whatever or both.
1)Topical always and
2)also starting some days before wounding.
but 2 is really IMHO .. i don't know if this could be safe.
cricket is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
forresthill
30.09.2008, 21:28
@ cal
|
Any suggestions for my next Folica experiment? |
» Okay Benji, Baccy, and everyone else watching us . . . I'm listening to
» suggestions about what I should try next.
»
» -- Topical? Internal? Combinations of the two?
»
» -- EGF-R?
»
» -- WNT?
»
» -- No washing (not even water) during the healing?
»
» -- Waiting periods after wounding?
»
»
»
» I'm ready to kick around ideas for anything to try right now.
»
» The only major thing I'm ruling out entirely is that I won't try a whole
» bunch of variables at the same time. No "kitchen sink" attempts that don't
» teach us anything when they don't work.
»
» (And I also don't want to start trying to substitute a lot of
» cheaper/natural/other drugs in place of the expensive unnatural
» pharmaceuticals right now. That step can wait until after we nail down
» exactly how to do this regrowth scheme in the first place.)
Perhaps someone should try to recreate the cancer patient results through Gefitinib (or similar), wounding and immunosuppression.
forresthill is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
alopecia
01.10.2008, 06:58
(edited by alopecia, 01.10.2008, 08:58)
@ TheOne
|
Any suggestions for my next Folica experiment? |
TheOne,
is there some way(or method) to achieve disruption without shaving of head
alopecia is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
coffee
01.10.2008, 10:38
@ alopecia
|
Any suggestions for my next Folica experiment? |
» TheOne,
» is there some way(or method) to achieve disruption without shaving of head
I suspect there are probably ways involving more advanced methods than we're likely to easily produce, but there is at least this method which has been around for a while:
Needling (diabetic lancets, such as a 30 gauge lancet) has been discussed, as well as a device called a "dermaroller" which essentially does this more efficiently. I've not seen many people advocating these based on results yet, but perhaps this is something which could be tested further. I'm not sure what the likelihood of this being effective is, but maybe someone can comment on that.
Also very light chemical or enzymatic abrasions (such as scalp renew) might not affect existing hair much, but again whether or not this could be effective seems to remain in doubt.
One thing that may affect whether or not such an unobtrusive procedure could be effective is to what extent pre-depilation affects the results of the procedure.
coffee is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
cal
01.10.2008, 19:57
@ coffee
|
Any suggestions for my next Folica experiment? |
FUUUUUCCCKKKK!!!!!!
I just had a HUGE elaborate response to you all typed up, and the no-login thing on the site made me lose it when I tried to post it.
I'll re-post it a little later. That just worked up way too much frustration in me to re-type it all right now.
cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
TheOne
02.10.2008, 10:40
(edited by TheOne, 02.10.2008, 10:46)
@ cal
|
Any suggestions for my next Folica experiment? |
» FUUUUUCCCKKKK!!!!!!
»
»
» I just had a HUGE elaborate response to you all typed up, and the no-login
» thing on the site made me lose it when I tried to post it.
»
» I'll re-post it a little later. That just worked up way too much
» frustration in me to re-type it all right now.
I hear you, It has happened to me a few times on this site now 
Im using the ie8 beta at the moment and its not helping, its quite buggy.
Sometimes when Im writing a post, ill hit return for a new line and it will submit the post so I have to do a whole lot of editing. 
TheOne is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
coffee
02.10.2008, 11:20
@ cal
|
Any suggestions for my next Folica experiment? |
» I just had a HUGE elaborate response to you all typed up, and the no-login
» thing on the site made me lose it when I tried to post it.
»
» I'll re-post it a little later. That just worked up way too much
» frustration in me to re-type it all right now.
Been there, done that 
Several times I've pressed the Submit button after a long thought out response only to find the authentication has expired. Now I usually use a text editor and cut an paste later, seems to help avoid the problem...
Anyway, looking forward to your insights, as I'm sure a lot of others are too.
coffee is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Baccy
03.10.2008, 12:24
@ forresthill
|
Any suggestions for my next Folica experiment? |
Personally, I'm going to re-read the patent and inhibit wnt before promoting it.
Baccy has 1 Personal Journal(s). Click here to view
Baccy is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Mr.Fantastic
03.10.2008, 12:42
@ forresthill
|
Any suggestions for my next Folica experiment? |
» Perhaps someone should try to recreate the cancer patient results through
» Gefitinib (or similar), wounding and immunosuppression.
I second that, but I suggest it be getfitnib or the others mentioned in the patent and cyclo (topical). Do not take it internally. I would still try to boost wnt with lithium. I think baccy got it covered by trying to inhibiting it first and boosting later in his next attempt.
Mr.Fantastic is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
cricket
03.10.2008, 12:57
@ Mr.Fantastic
|
Any suggestions for my next Folica experiment? |
» » Perhaps someone should try to recreate the cancer patient results
» through
» » Gefitinib (or similar), wounding and immunosuppression.
»
» I second that, but I suggest it be getfitnib or the others mentioned in
» the patent and cyclo (topical). Do not take it internally.
topical cyclo is not useful because the lack of penetration (even if i 've read about some derivated are quite effective but i don't remember)
I think we have to go with tacrolimus or other.
cricket is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Mr.Fantastic
03.10.2008, 13:08
@ cricket
|
Any suggestions for my next Folica experiment? |
» » » Perhaps someone should try to recreate the cancer patient results
» » through
» » » Gefitinib (or similar), wounding and immunosuppression.
» »
» » I second that, but I suggest it be getfitnib or the others mentioned in
» » the patent and cyclo (topical). Do not take it internally.
»
» topical cyclo is not useful because the lack of penetration (even if i 've
» read about some derivated are quite effective but i don't remember)
»
» I think we have to go with tacrolimus or other.
That is why I mention Restasis in another thread. Is tacrolimus mentioned in the patent???? It's worth a try if it is.
Mr.Fantastic is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
manic_monkey
03.10.2008, 13:25
@ Mr.Fantastic
|
Any suggestions for my next Folica experiment? |
» » » » Perhaps someone should try to recreate the cancer patient results
» » » through
» » » » Gefitinib (or similar), wounding and immunosuppression.
» » »
» » » I second that, but I suggest it be getfitnib or the others mentioned
» in
» » » the patent and cyclo (topical). Do not take it internally.
» »
» » topical cyclo is not useful because the lack of penetration (even if i
» 've
» » read about some derivated are quite effective but i don't remember)
» »
» » I think we have to go with tacrolimus or other.
»
» That is why I mention Restasis in another thread. Is tacrolimus mentioned
» in the patent???? It's worth a try if it is.
yes it is. This might be helpfull when looking for alternative drugs
http://tressless.com/2008/08/13/follica-raises-11mil-reveals-secret-11-herbs-and-spices/
manic_monkey is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
cricket
03.10.2008, 13:32
@ manic_monkey
|
Any suggestions for my next Folica experiment? |
» » » » » Perhaps someone should try to recreate the cancer patient results
» » » » through
» » » » » Gefitinib (or similar), wounding and immunosuppression.
» » » »
» » » » I second that, but I suggest it be getfitnib or the others
» mentioned
» » in
» » » » the patent and cyclo (topical). Do not take it internally.
» » »
» » » topical cyclo is not useful because the lack of penetration (even if
» i
» » 've
» » » read about some derivated are quite effective but i don't remember)
» » »
» » » I think we have to go with tacrolimus or other.
» »
» » That is why I mention Restasis in another thread. Is tacrolimus
» mentioned
» » in the patent???? It's worth a try if it is.
»
» yes it is. This might be helpfull when looking for alternative drugs
»
» http://tressless.com/2008/08/13/follica-raises-11mil-reveals-secret-11-herbs-and-spices/
sure it is in the patent... about restasis i think is not enough for skin
but we should wait for some confirm.
cricket is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Mr.Fantastic
03.10.2008, 14:46
(edited by Mr.Fantastic, 03.10.2008, 14:53)
@ cricket
|
Any suggestions for my next Folica experiment? |
DRUG INTERACTIONS: No studies have been done to determine if tacrolimus ointment has important interactions with other drugs. Interactions are unlikely because only small amounts of tacrolimus are absorbed from the skin; however, it still is possible that important interactions might occur.
Hmmmn, small amounts but specific #'s aren't given. They sell as an ointment and the price isn't too bad. I wonder if the absorption is enough with this ointment? Maybe add a drop or 2 of dmso? I guess if you apply this around the same time as getfitinib and you have dmso as an ingredient in your egf-r delivery vehicle, then this should do. Please don't take me too seriously, I'm just guessing at all this like many here. If someone knows better , please cut in and correct me. As you can tell, I think immuno's are needed to make this work -- my personal opinion only.
Mr.Fantastic is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Mr.Fantastic
03.10.2008, 18:00
@ Mr.Fantastic
|
Any suggestions for my next Folica experiment? |
» DRUG INTERACTIONS: No studies have been done to determine if
» tacrolimus ointment has important interactions with other drugs.
» Interactions are unlikely because only small amounts of tacrolimus are
» absorbed from the skin; however, it still is possible that important
» interactions might occur.
»
»
» Hmmmn, small amounts but specific #'s aren't given. They sell as an
» ointment and the price isn't too bad. I wonder if the absorption is enough
» with this ointment? Maybe add a drop or 2 of dmso? I guess if you apply
» this around the same time as getfitinib and you have dmso as an ingredient
» in your egf-r delivery vehicle, then this should do. Please don't take me
» too seriously, I'm just guessing at all this like many here. If someone
» knows better , please cut in and correct me. As you can tell, I think
» immuno's are needed to make this work -- my personal opinion only.
Well, the only thing I can think of is that if your skin is already dermabraded, that should help absorption- you know, raw skin.
Mr.Fantastic is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Mr.Fantastic
03.10.2008, 18:14
(edited by Mr.Fantastic, 03.10.2008, 19:12)
@ Mr.Fantastic
|
Tacro > Cyclo |
This is the cheapest I found on the net -- they are based in India
http://urantiapharma.com/search.php?search=protopic&lang=en&Submit=Find+Now
Mr.Fantastic is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Baccy
05.10.2008, 11:36
@ Mr.Fantastic
|
Tacro > Cyclo |
» This is the cheapest I found on the net -- they are based in India
»
» http://urantiapharma.com/search.php?search=protopic&lang=en&Submit=Find+Now
Interesting. I think I'll incorporate this into my next attempt. Seems relatively harmless.
Baccy has 1 Personal Journal(s). Click here to view
Baccy is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
Mr.Fantastic
06.10.2008, 01:46
@ Baccy
|
Tacro > Cyclo |
» » This is the cheapest I found on the net -- they are based in India
» »
» »
» http://urantiapharma.com/search.php?search=protopic&lang=en&Submit=Find+Now
»
» Interesting. I think I'll incorporate this into my next attempt. Seems
» relatively harmless.
It is not harmeless -- far from it. I've read about numerous cases of people developing cancer -- some eventually died. These were people who applied the cream for over a year however. They did a study with eight monkeys and gave them a higher dosage of tacro and 7 out 8 got cancer. My suggestion is to apply no longer than 10 days and keep treated area out of the sun. I don't think short term use will do you any harm but I don't have any data on it.
Mr.Fantastic is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
coffee
13.10.2008, 16:28
@ cal
|
for cal - any insights here? |
» I just had a HUGE elaborate response to you all typed up, and the no-login
» thing on the site made me lose it when I tried to post it.
»
» I'll re-post it a little later. That just worked up way too much
» frustration in me to re-type it all right now.
just remembered that you mentioned having some interesting comments here that got zapped... just didn't want to miss out on anything...
coffee is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
cal
14.10.2008, 01:55
@ coffee
|
for cal - any insights here? |
Right now I'm deciding exactly what I want to do next.
Half the discussion this thread started has ended up being covered in the last week throughout several other threads, and I kind of ended up letting this thread drop.
My next attempt is looking like it will probably be immune suppression + EGF-R inhibition, and nothing else.
But unfortunately I don't think I can do it all orally this time. Oral cyclo is a big ugly risk and I think I would rather give it a round of topical immune suppression before I take the oral risk.
I think topical immune suppression is what I'll try. It's an unknown variable, but at least we know the idea of topical immune suppression itself is a valid concept. (We have no such assurances about topical uses of EGF-R inhibition when it comes to existing drugs.)
I may still do the EGF-R inhibition orally though. Genfilitib is nasty, but I might go through with it if I feel like the window is short enough. 12-14 days (like some of the patents) won't happen, but I might decide to withstand a few days of it if I feel like I've got the window nailed down that accurately.
The other thing that occurs to me is to go back to another round of oral Leflunomide instead of oral Genfilitib. It's clumsier, but it's so much more tolerable that I would really do it orally for as long (and with a high enough dosage) as it takes.
cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
cricket
14.10.2008, 19:43
@ cal
|
for cal - any insights here? |
»
»
» My next attempt is looking like it will probably be immune suppression
» + EGF-R inhibition, and nothing else.
Good shoot.
» But unfortunately I don't think I can do it all orally this time. Oral
» cyclo is a big ugly risk and I think I would rather give it a round of
» topical immune suppression before I take the oral risk.
Agree. Go with tacrolimus.
» I think topical immune suppression is what I'll try. It's an unknown
» variable, but at least we know the idea of topical immune suppression
» itself is a valid concept. (We have no such assurances about topical uses
» of EGF-R inhibition when it comes to existing drugs.)
i'm not an expert but someone could confirm oral drugs reach a good level of inhibition in skin ?
If answer is yes goto end.
But if no i'm thinking a case scenario where in order to form thick hair (or also only to form hair maybe!) the egfr-inhibition should be very very high
( relative to common oral dose ).In such case sure follica go with topical at high %.
So , if we have no assurance about topical uses, do we have instead a little assurance about oral therapy ?
Thinking about man who uses oral gefitinib the answer should be yes.
This anyway to appoint that could be not so clear in your hypotetical failed attempt that topical immune suppression is not valid.
»
» I may still do the EGF-R inhibition orally though. Genfilitib is nasty,
» but I might go through with it if I feel like the window is short enough.
» 12-14 days (like some of the patents) won't happen, but I might decide to
» withstand a few days of it if I feel like I've got the window nailed down
» that accurately.
»
»
» The other thing that occurs to me is to go back to another round of
» oral Leflunomide instead of oral Genfilitib. It's clumsier, but it's
» so much more tolerable that I would really do it orally for as long (and
» with a high enough dosage) as it takes.
I'm hoping the best for you/us.
cricket is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO |
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