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hairtech_

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Minneapolis,MN,
28.07.2007, 11:23
(edited by hairtech_, 28.07.2007, 11:55)
 

ISHRS Advanced Webinar going right now... Hairtech (Hair Multiplication & Stem Cells Treatment)

I am attending the seminar and am trying in realtime to spit it back out to you...Ken Washenik is starting off with Cell therapy/cell multiplicaton.

Next will be holding solutions and other topics...




hairtech_ is located in MINNEAPOLIS,MN and he is available to meet: NO

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Hairtech
Shapiro Medical Group


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hairtech_

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Minneapolis,MN,
28.07.2007, 11:26

@ hairtech_

ISHRS Advanced Webinar going right now...

Dr. Washenik....

What is the regeneration properties of the hair follicle?

Plucked hairs regrow.

hair falls out... and it grows.

So the hair follicle is known to have regeneration properties.




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Hairtech
Shapiro Medical Group


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hairtech_

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Minneapolis,MN,
28.07.2007, 11:30

@ hairtech_

ISHRS Advanced Webinar going right now...

Cells have to be trichogenic to be able to be specialized...

The dermal papilla has inductive properties to form new follicles.




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hairtech_

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Minneapolis,MN,
28.07.2007, 11:34

@ hairtech_

ISHRS Advanced Webinar going right now...

Important cells within the follicle to create new follicles. Dermal cells and epidermal cell.


Disassociated follicular papilla and epidermal cells have been able to grow hair on mice.




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Shapiro Medical Group


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hairtech_

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Minneapolis,MN,
28.07.2007, 11:42

@ hairtech_

ISHRS Advanced Webinar going right now...

One cell approach to cell multiplication.

Using dermal cell usage only. Dermal cells are inductive cells. They induce cell replication of the hair follicle.

One theory: Inject the dermal cells into the skin and a hair follicle grows right?

One experiment was to take several hairs, take the dermal papillas and create a hair from the dermal papillas.

This was in 1999. It worked in the mouse.

The two cell approach. Using dermal cells and epidermal cells.

Epidermal cells are hard to culture.




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Shapiro Medical Group


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hairtech_

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Minneapolis,MN,
28.07.2007, 11:47

@ hairtech_

ISHRS Advanced Webinar going right now...

When you culture epidermal cells and dermal cells, mix them, plant them, they coalesce and form hairs.

When injected in the skin hair grows. But it grows erratically. hairs cells form by two weeks. actual follicles grow!

They begin to cycle... anagen/telogen occurs... At day 21 telogen occurs. Shedding cannot occur though... Because the follicles do not poke through the skin so an inflammatory reaction occurs. It then inhibits further growth.




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Shapiro Medical Group


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hairtech_

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Minneapolis,MN,
28.07.2007, 11:54

@ hairtech_

ISHRS Advanced Webinar going right now...

Why does telogen occur so fast? Because the mice model is used. Mice hair cycles are extremely fast. And they all happen at the same time.


So they tried the experiment again with immunocompromised mice. To see if the inflammatory response.




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hairtech_

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Minneapolis,MN,
28.07.2007, 12:04

@ hairtech_

ISHRS Advanced Webinar going right now... Hairtech

going back to the first experiment first. If you poke a needle into the mass of hair, they can get through the kin and grow.

But the cycle is too fast.

So the problem is even though you can grow hair in culture and inject under skin, there are still issues with angles, control of growth, etc...

New research...




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Shapiro Medical Group


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hairtech_

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Minneapolis,MN,
28.07.2007, 12:10

@ hairtech_

ISHRS Advanced Webinar going right now... Hairtech

Wound formation in mice showed hair to form within the would during healing for some reason. That meant there is a different option to creat new hair outside of a culture.

So more research needs to go into this also.

So basically we have shown that we can grow hair in culture. We have good models in mice for several approaches. But we are still in the beginning stages of this fascinating research.

Questions??

No...

Next presentation.

Sarah Miller, Phd

Molecular controls of hair follicle development and hair growth.




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Shapiro Medical Group


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hairtech_

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Minneapolis,MN,
28.07.2007, 12:20

@ hairtech_

ISHRS Advanced Webinar going right now... Hairtech

What cells are important is hair?

Hair follicle development in mice:

1. Most of the mouses skin is dedicated for hair development. Very highly densed packed.

2. Surface dermal cells in the embryo of mice controls development of hair.

3. The development of hair follicles are regulated then by intercellular signals. In other words, the dermis is talking to the epidermis during development, to create hair follicles.

technical difficulties at the moment...




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hairtech_

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Minneapolis,MN,
28.07.2007, 12:21

@ hairtech_

ISHRS Advanced Webinar going right now... Hairtech

What cells are important is hair?

Hair follicle development in mice:

1. Most of the mouses skin is dedicated for hair development. Very highly densed packed.

2. Surface dermal cells in the embryo of mice controls development of hair.

3. The development of hair follicles are regulated then by intercellular signals. In other words, the dermis is talking to the epidermis during development, to create hair follicles.

technical difficulties at the moment...

slides are out of order... waiting for continuation of speaker...




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hairtech_

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Minneapolis,MN,
28.07.2007, 12:29

@ hairtech_

ISHRS Advanced Webinar going right now... Hairtech

5. WNT molecules are very important in hair follicle formation.

6. WNT can cause hair follicle tumors. Hair follicle tumors are tumors of hair, and mostly hair particles... essentially a real tumor of no growth control.

7. WNT inhibition can cause hair to stop growing.

8. So WNT seems to to something in the future as a cell signal for follicles to grow or not grow.

Next topic...




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Shapiro Medical Group


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hairtech_

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Minneapolis,MN,
28.07.2007, 12:33

@ hairtech_

ISHRS Advanced Webinar going right now... Hairtech

Hair spacing... How does it occur on the molecular level.

1. All has to do with cell signalling. She is speaking about the different cellular molecules that signal the uniform spacing of hair.

2. Very complex. They are still learning what cell signal controls do what.




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hairtech_

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Minneapolis,MN,
28.07.2007, 12:38

@ hairtech_

ISHRS Advanced Webinar going right now... Hairtech

Hair spacing... How does it occur on the molecular level.

1. All has to do with cell signalling. She is speaking about the different cellular molecules that signal the uniform spacing of hair.

2. Very complex. They are still learning what cell signal controls do what.

She is now speaking about certain mutations in genes that stop hair growth or begin hair growth

Someone is asking a question...




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hairtech_

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Minneapolis,MN,
28.07.2007, 12:46

@ hairtech_

ISHRS Advanced Webinar going right now... Hairtech

[image]

Dr. Harris and me (me not pictured only my computer screen




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hairtech_

E-mail

Minneapolis,MN,
28.07.2007, 12:52

@ hairtech_

ISHRS Advanced Webinar going right now... Hairtech

She is really being technical... and now her computer crashed so I am waiting...




hairtech_ is located in MINNEAPOLIS,MN and he is available to meet: NO

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Hairtech
Shapiro Medical Group


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hairtech_

E-mail

Minneapolis,MN,
28.07.2007, 13:07

@ hairtech_

ISHRS Advanced Webinar going right now... Hairtech

Now she is talking about the signals in the dermal Papilla that play important roles on hair development.

The speaker has finished. Basically she named all the molecules involved in the development of hair follicles. One of them WNT seems to be very important. Her talk has very technical but to break it down for everyone, she has found specific pathways in hair growth. Sort of like the krebs cycle if you will. This chemical turns this on... then this happens... and so on and so on. If you inhibit this chemical then this happens.
She is the leading researcher in the molecular biology of hair follicles at the university of Pennsylvania.


Next speaker Dr. Jerry Cooley in the importance of holding solutions in HT.




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Hairtech
Shapiro Medical Group


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hairtech_

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Minneapolis,MN,
28.07.2007, 13:14

@ hairtech_

ISHRS Advanced Webinar going right now... Hairtech

Graft storage solutions...

1. There are no FDA approved solutions.

2. The ideal holding solution?

A soluition that supports and protects grafts... Keep them from necrosing or inhibit apoptosis or programmed cell death?




hairtech_ is located in MINNEAPOLIS,MN and he is available to meet: NO

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Hairtech
Shapiro Medical Group


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hairtech_

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Minneapolis,MN,
28.07.2007, 13:24

@ hairtech_

ISHRS Advanced Webinar going right now... Hairtech

Basic principles... good holding solution may have:


1. Good Osmolarity around 310mOsmol/L in humans.
2. Ph is very important. needs to be close to physiologic Ph... around 7.3-7.4
3. Temperature. Cooling stops sodium and chloride pumps.
4. Nutrients glucose, amino acids, vitamins,
5. Antioxidants.




hairtech_ is located in MINNEAPOLIS,MN and he is available to meet: NO

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Hairtech
Shapiro Medical Group


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hairtech_

E-mail

Minneapolis,MN,
28.07.2007, 13:29

@ hairtech_

ISHRS Advanced Webinar going right now... Hairtech

Types of Media Storage:

1. Saline/plasmalyte A/etc...
2. Culture Media
3. Tissue holding solutions for organ transplants such as UW or hypothermasol.




hairtech_ is located in MINNEAPOLIS,MN and he is available to meet: NO

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Hairtech
Shapiro Medical Group


Post reply
Z79

28.07.2007, 13:30

@ hairtech_

ISHRS Advanced Webinar going right now... Hairtech

I am attending the seminar and am trying in realtime to spit it back out to
you...Ken Washenik is starting off with Cell therapy/cell multiplicaton.

Next will be holding solutions and other topics...

Very kind of you for doing this!

But it is a bit worrying to hear him say that "we are still in the beginning stages of this fascinating research." What does this mean? That a working solution is a decade or more away??




Z79 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


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hairtech_

E-mail

Minneapolis,MN,
28.07.2007, 13:36

@ hairtech_

ISHRS Advanced Webinar going right now... Hairtech

Which is best?

What inhibits growth?

1. physical trauma/transections/crushing/bad techs
2. Holding solution plays a small role but it matters. Saline works but not enough.




hairtech_ is located in MINNEAPOLIS,MN and he is available to meet: NO

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Hairtech
Shapiro Medical Group


Post reply
BostonBaldy

28.07.2007, 13:42

@ hairtech_

ISHRS Advanced Webinar going right now...

Hi hairtech,

The one-cell approach is being undertaken by Intercytex. Did Washenik say anything else about the one-cell approach as a viable solution to hair loss? Notice that all the problems Washenik talks about are with the two-cell approach, which is what his Aderans Research Institute is doing.

All the best,
BB

One cell approach to cell multiplication.

Using dermal cell usage only. Dermal cells are inductive cells. They
induce cell replication of the hair follicle.

One theory: Inject the dermal cells into the skin and a hair follicle
grows right?

One experiment was to take several hairs, take the dermal papillas and
create a hair from the dermal papillas.

This was in 1999. It worked in the mouse.

The two cell approach. Using dermal cells and epidermal cells.

Epidermal cells are hard to culture.




BostonBaldy is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


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hairtech_

E-mail

Minneapolis,MN,
28.07.2007, 13:42

@ hairtech_

ISHRS Advanced Webinar going right now... Hairtech

Limmer did a study where he kept follicles in chilled saline. He transplanted the follicles at 1hr, 2hr, 4hr, 8 hrs 1 day and 2 days.

Follicles grew at two days... but a drastic decrease in growth as time goes on.

So this study can show that if a good holding solution is employed then growth rates will be higher.




hairtech_ is located in MINNEAPOLIS,MN and he is available to meet: NO

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Hairtech
Shapiro Medical Group


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hairtech_

E-mail

Minneapolis,MN,
28.07.2007, 13:44

@ BostonBaldy

ISHRS Advanced Webinar going right now...

Hi hairtech,

The one-cell approach is being undertaken by Intercytex. Did Washenik say
anything else about the one-cell approach as a viable solution to hair
loss? Notice that all the problems Washenik talks about are with the
two-cell approach, which is what his Aderans Research Institute is doing.


yes he did hold on and I will try to answer questions when the webinar is over...




hairtech_ is located in MINNEAPOLIS,MN and he is available to meet: NO

---
Hairtech
Shapiro Medical Group


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hairtech_

E-mail

Minneapolis,MN,
28.07.2007, 14:12

@ hairtech_

ISHRS Advanced Webinar going right now...

Basically what Dr. Cooley says is that in large cases that last longer than 4 hours that a better holding solution may need to be employed.

It is over now. This was a pretty good . I emailed Dr. Cooley to send me his power point presentation so I can spit it back out with more information.

Webinar over.

Attendants.

1. Jim Harris
2. Brad Wolf
3. Jerry Cooley
4. Carlos Puig
5. Ken Washinik
6. Sarah Miller

And several others that I did not know.

Dr. Harris organized it. It was his first Webinar.

We will have it again and Dr. Harris and I are going to suggest that we may open this up to the general public to ask whatever questions they want after presentations.




hairtech_ is located in MINNEAPOLIS,MN and he is available to meet: NO

---
Hairtech
Shapiro Medical Group


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hairtech_

E-mail

Minneapolis,MN,
28.07.2007, 14:15

@ Z79

ISHRS Advanced Webinar going right now... Hairtech

Very kind of you for doing this!

But it is a bit worrying to hear him say that "we are still in the
beginning stages of this fascinating research." What does this mean? That
a working solution is a decade or more away??

Not too sure what that meant either. But it is safe to assume that it is at least that many years out, based of FDA approval alone.




hairtech_ is located in MINNEAPOLIS,MN and he is available to meet: NO

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Hairtech
Shapiro Medical Group


Post reply
BostonBaldy

28.07.2007, 14:18

@ hairtech_

ISHRS Advanced Webinar going right now...

Hi hairtech,

Thanks for the realtime coverage! But to return to my earlier question: what else did Ken Washenik say about the one-cell approach to hair multiplication? I.e., what problems/benefits of that approach?

Much thanks!
BB

Basically what Dr. Cooley says is that in large cases that last longer than
4 hours that a better holding solution may need to be employed.

It is over now. This was a pretty good . I emailed Dr. Cooley to send me
his power point presentation so I can spit it back out with more
information.

Webinar over.

Attendants.

1. Jim Harris
2. Brad Wolf
3. Jerry Cooley
4. Carlos Puig
5. Ken Washinik
6. Sarah Miller

And several others that I did not know.

Dr. Harris organized it. It was his first Webinar.

We will have it again and Dr. Harris and I are going to suggest that we
may open this up to the general public to ask whatever questions they want
after presentations.




BostonBaldy is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


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hairtech_

E-mail

Minneapolis,MN,
28.07.2007, 15:55

@ hairtech_

ISHRS Advanced Webinar going right now... Hairtech

Boston,

I tell you what, I am going to get his lecture and type it in when for you.




hairtech_ is located in MINNEAPOLIS,MN and he is available to meet: NO

---
Hairtech
Shapiro Medical Group


Post reply
blahblah

28.07.2007, 16:37

@ Z79

ISHRS Advanced Webinar going right now... Hairtech

I am attending the seminar and am trying in realtime to spit it back out
to
you...Ken Washenik is starting off with Cell therapy/cell
multiplicaton.

Next will be holding solutions and other topics...

Very kind of you for doing this!

But it is a bit worrying to hear him say that "we are still in the
beginning stages of this fascinating research." What does this mean? That
a working solution is a decade or more away??

That comment was in regards to wound treatment it seemed no?




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Post reply
BostonBaldy

28.07.2007, 16:41

@ hairtech_

ISHRS Advanced Webinar going right now... Hairtech

Hi hairtech,

That would be very generous of you. I think many who follow HM would be interested in Washenik's comments as in fact he is a genuine insider. In addition, his comments on the one-cell approach would be useful inasmuch this is the approach being undertaken by Intercytex.

All the best,
BB

Boston,

I tell you what, I am going to get his lecture and type it in when for
you.




BostonBaldy is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
BostonBaldy

28.07.2007, 16:49

@ blahblah

Washenik...

blahblah, I think you're right. Ken Washenik has been working on HM for years and years, so I really doubt he'd slam both his academic work and research company (Aderans Research Institute) by saying that everything he's done up until now amounts to just the "beginning stages" of "fascinating research". Moreover, Washenik is right to say that the wounding plus protein promoter approach to hair restoration is in its early stages. The Nature article by Cotsarelis et al. was just published a few months ago, after all. Finally, on top of this Washenik has been repeatedly critized for being overly optimistic about HM timelines, so it'd be unlikely he'd say something pessimistic.

But it is a bit worrying to hear him say that "we are still in the
beginning stages of this fascinating research." What does this mean?
That
a working solution is a decade or more away??

That comment was in regards to wound treatment it seemed no?




BostonBaldy is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
Z79

28.07.2007, 18:20

@ BostonBaldy

Washenik...

I think that is just wishful thinking. For me it sounds obvious that he is talking about the whole field of hair regeneration, from his point of view at least. This indicates to me that aderans still is struggling with a working procedure. All my hope lies with intercytex.




Z79 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
damon

28.07.2007, 18:21

@ BostonBaldy

ISHRS Advanced Webinar going right now... Hairtech

This place is a real roller coaster ride for my emotions.Sometimes I read an article or post that gives me so much hope that hm will be out soon then Ill read some thing that takes the wind out of my sails.
I cant really blame the people who are posting this stuff because I know I am doing this to myself.




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Post reply
BostonBaldy

28.07.2007, 19:02

@ damon

ISHRS Advanced Webinar going right now... Hairtech

No sh*t. I am going to stay away from this forum for a while... too much speculation, etc... it's bad for the brain...

This place is a real roller coaster ride for my emotions.Sometimes I read
an article or post that gives me so much hope that hm will be out soon
then Ill read some thing that takes the wind out of my sails.
I cant really blame the people who are posting this stuff because I know
I am doing this to myself.




BostonBaldy is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


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hairtech_

E-mail

Minneapolis,MN,
28.07.2007, 19:55

@ hairtech_

ISHRS Advanced Webinar going right now... Hairtech

Whoa now wait.. Let me get my hands on the power point presentation first. Some of the stuff he showed, was completely compelling.

I apologize for the "pessimistic" outlook, because what he showed thus far blew my mind in terms of culturing cells via underneath the skin with the 2-cell approach. Intercytex was using the 1-cell approach.

I also was slightly disappointed because what he showed was really awesome in terms of growing hairs by the 2-celled approach, however he kind of left me hanging also.

But again let me review the pwr pt pres. just to make sure I was not leaving anything out. One has to remember though that Dr. Washenik has a finiacial interest in the Alderan Company. I am sure he wants this to thrive. I don't know if he is not telling all or what.:-)




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Shapiro Medical Group


Post reply
James Bond

28.07.2007, 20:30

@ BostonBaldy

ISHRS Advanced Webinar going right now... Hairtech

Hi hairtech,

That would be very generous of you. I think many who follow HM would be
interested in Washenik's comments as in fact he is a genuine insider. In
addition, his comments on the one-cell approach would be useful inasmuch
this is the approach being undertaken by Intercytex.

All the best,
BB

Boston,

I tell you what, I am going to get his lecture and type it in when for
you.

Mention of the "one cell approach," "two cell approach" etc. is a very abstract way of looking at a very technical subject. In truth, no HM protocol will work that uses only one or two types of cells. What is meant by this terminology is whether an epithelial cell based solution is used, a mesenchymal cell based solution is used, or a mixture of epithelial and mesencymal cells is used. IOW, the main type of cell is the base, but many other cell types need to be present in order to get the follicle to grow.

You need the mesencymal cells and the epithelial cells to communicate, so with the "one cell approach," ICX injects a mesenchymal based solution into the skin and relies on the existing epithelial cells to complete the package. Gho does the opposite and injects epithelial cells and relies on the existing mesencymal cells. So far, I only know of animal experiments that use both types of cells together due to the problems this technique represents. Although using both kinds in culture keeps the cells extremely viable, other problems result, so it is not being used in humans yet.

But it gets even deeper than this, because technically, if you are stimuating as opposed to creating new follicles, you don't really have to think about the other cell type. This is because you are targeting the follicle bases in an attempt to get them to uptake healthy cells that allow the follicle to begin signaling properly again. I'm speaking strictly of injecting dermal cells so that the follicles' migration pathways uptake them into the papilla. Once present, the newly migrated cells can begin to communicate with the surrounding cells and get the follicle to grow normally again. The dermal cells orchestrate the entire process, but get whacked out when DHT loading occurs. So the goal is to simply replace them.

There are lots of ways to go about HM, and each way has its strengths and weaknesses.




James Bond is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
James Bond

28.07.2007, 20:42

@ hairtech_

ISHRS Advanced Webinar going right now... Hairtech

Whoa now wait.. Let me get my hands on the power point presentation first.
Some of the stuff he showed, was completely compelling.

I apologize for the "pessimistic" outlook, because what he showed thus far
blew my mind in terms of culturing cells via underneath the skin with the
2-cell approach. Intercytex was using the 1-cell approach.

I also was slightly disappointed because what he showed was really awesome
in terms of growing hairs by the 2-celled approach, however he kind of left
me hanging also.

But again let me review the pwr pt pres. just to make sure I was not
leaving anything out. One has to remember though that Dr. Washenik has a
finiacial interest in the Alderan Company. I am sure he wants this to
thrive. I don't know if he is not telling all or what.:-)

It's my understanding that culturing dermal cells causes them to lose their genetic expression and become other cells. However, co-culturing them with epidermal cells allows the dermal cells to remain viable because of the signals present when both cell types exist.

So the two cell approach could lead to unlimited donor hair. I think the main problem is, as you have pointed out, injecting both types leads to other problems that are perhaps more insurmountable than the single cell approach.

I personally favor a single cell approach using 3-d culturing matrices, as culturing in this manner allows the cells to remain viable for a much longer period.

But then again, my reading on the subject is somewhat dated, so it would be great to see the latest information on this subject.




James Bond is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
benji

28.07.2007, 20:50

@ hairtech_

I think I see whats up at Aderans now and why

....................if they are implanting cells and they are formulating hairs, but the hairs are trying to shed at 21 days, before the cells are out of the dermis---thus causing an inflammatory reaction while you have a shed hair stuck under the dermis, and killing the newbie hair below it...........................


..............then this is why we had Washenik speculating a while back about growing the hairs "outside" the body and re-implanting. He wante them to be long enough to have the tips outside the dermis so when they shed they could fall out and not interfere with the dermal papilla as it rests, regroups, and starts a new anagen phase.



I wonder if FUE docs, pulled hairs, but cut them off extremely short, below the skin surface right above the papilla (magically not damaging the arrector pilli muscle and root sheath etc---this is just a "suppose";), whether the regular transplant hair would phuck up if it couldnt reach the surface again by day 21 and the skin had grown over the hole in the dermis where the hair comes out (called the infidilum I think it was)? We'd probably have the same thing



ICX had no inflammation with their procedure though in phase one trials and grew hairs (some over 100 per cm). SO what are they doing different?
Paul Kemp must be one smart dude...........................no wonder they dont want to divulge anything, this is a freakin' race to history. This info puts a lot of things in perspective as far as Aderans CEO saying "we will know if this is viable by 2009" etc. Now that sounds like to me that they have given Washenik that long to produce a result or they are go with ICX exclusively as far as funding (outsourcing the research to ICX, who is obviously ahead at this point). Wonder what they are doing over there thats different. ?

Any ideas gents. JTR, JB?




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Post reply
hairtech_

E-mail

Minneapolis,MN,
28.07.2007, 21:57

@ benji

I think I see whats up at Aderans now and why

....................if they are implanting cells and they are formulating
hairs, but the hairs are trying to shed at 21 days, before the cells are
out of the dermis---thus causing an inflammatory reaction while you have a
shed hair stuck under the dermis, and killing the newbie hair below
it...........................



The 21 day cycle is from the fact that it is a mouse model. All mice hairs cycle at the same time at 21 days.

The shedding causes an inflammatory response because the hairs are not poking throught the skin. If a needle is used to poke holes in the skin where the hairs are shedding, then the are able to shed and a new cycle starts.

I thought is was very compelling.




hairtech_ is located in MINNEAPOLIS,MN and he is available to meet: NO

---
Hairtech
Shapiro Medical Group


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benji

28.07.2007, 22:49

@ hairtech_

Thomas

Im pretty sure you have followed this for a while too. I remember Washenik (or really Aderans) taking out a patent for bio-degradable tissue scaffolds assuring the public that it was to ensure proper direction. I wonder if there is any link between the scaffolds and the skin growing back over the inserted cells and any problems they forsee or worry about with this?



In some ways, Ive wondered if Aderans has (I know they have recruited for phase one tests) shot any man up and seen what happened. Thats what phase one's do, see about safety. It would seem to me that men with the classic vertex bald spots would be the best one's to test this on, but if you think about it, it could be tried in a one cm patch of skin anywhere on the dermis to see if the hair grew-------------and could be FUE'd right back out if any complications arose.


Obviously this must be uber complicated science.


BTW---I just finished reading a study that took place a few years back that culled vellus hairs from MPB men and put them on immuno-deficient mice, male and female............the vellus hairs actually outgrew donor-area hairs on the mice. There were pics and everything. We dont know the androgen levels in those mice, but that is interesting that enough stem cell material must be hanging around to generate that. The authors speculate some neuropeptide, cytokine, type of hormone, or whatever, must hang around in human skin and not allow for regeneration or for correct signalling even after one gets on finasteride.




benji is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


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hairtech_

E-mail

Minneapolis,MN,
28.07.2007, 23:31

@ benji

Thomas

You know Benji what baffles me is:

1. Like you said why aren't there any human clinical trials with this approach?
2. Why not grow the patch of hair, cut the patch out, and then transplant the follicles for proper angles.
3. The mouse models are specially genetically engineered mice, i.e. immunocompromised mice. So would humans be at risk for having an immune response such as a monoclonal antibody created towards any of the billions of antigens presented on these follicles grown in the patch?
4. Was Washenik's financial interest an influence on how much info he divulged today?

What do you think Benj?




hairtech_ is located in MINNEAPOLIS,MN and he is available to meet: NO

---
Hairtech
Shapiro Medical Group


Post reply
benji

29.07.2007, 21:35

@ hairtech_

Thomas

You know Benji what baffles me is:

1. Like you said why aren't there any human clinical trials with this
approach?
2. Why not grow the patch of hair, cut the patch out, and then transplant
the follicles for proper angles.
3. The mouse models are specially genetically engineered mice, i.e.
immunocompromised mice. So would humans be at risk for having an immune
response such as a monoclonal antibody created towards any of the billions
of antigens presented on these follicles grown in the patch?
4. Was Washenik's financial interest an influence on how much info he
divulged today?

What do you think Benj?



1. I keep thinking Aderans is about to kick off their phase one clinical trial. I mean ICX is in phase two, and if the results are pretty good, and Aderans hasn't even started, they'd be pretty darn far behind unless they are purposely waiting to see what those results will be because they want to tweak their own protocol based on ICX's results...

2. Why not grow the patch oc hair, cut the patch out, and implant the hair? Ive been saying that for about three years. Back when "direction" was supposed to be the big problem with HM............I thought, "put it in my thigh, and when it grows out, FUE it out of my thigh to my head".

3. ON mice and men-------------ICX's phase one didn't have inflammation, but the only way Aderans would know for sure is to shoot two or three men up and see what they have up there.

4. I dont know if Washenik was talking "up" the stock or talking it "down". Admitting they are having a problem is honest though, I'll give him that...........




benji is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
BostonBaldy

29.07.2007, 22:04

@ benji

Aderans has already begun Phase I trials...

1. I keep thinking Aderans is about to kick off their phase one clinical
trial. I mean ICX is in phase two, and if the results are pretty good, and
Aderans hasn't even started, they'd be pretty darn far behind unless they
are purposely waiting to see what those results will be because they want
to tweak their own protocol based on ICX's results...

Hey benji/hairtech,

If you look at some of the earlier posts some folks on this forum emailed Aderans and the reply was that Phase I trials have already begun (that was a few months back). And if you believe the following press release then Aderans began its Phase I trials one year ago:
http://www.intermarkltd.com/ClinicalTrialPressRelease.htm

What baffles me is: why no data/info from Ken Washenik on Phase I, not even in terms of public relations? And why isn't the press release on ARI's website? And what does Washenik know about Intercytex (remember Bosley, which is owned by Aderans, has "exclusive" first rights to distribute ICX-TRC)? And what exactly is Aderans' timeline (compare their lack of transparency with Intercytex, which is very clear about timelines)?

All the best,
BB




BostonBaldy is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


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hairtech_

E-mail

Minneapolis,MN,
29.07.2007, 22:13

@ BostonBaldy

Aderans has already begun Phase I trials...

I'll be honest too in saying that I have NOT followed HM that much since the days of BAZAN and his stuff. When I visited Jerry Cooley this year, he showed me the Intercytex stuff and that was compelling.

Then I see aderans/Washenik(essentially Bosley) two cell approach and was again compelled to start monitoring this stuff.

We are getting close fellas. But I have a problem. Bosley's interest in speeding up research or if one wants to think in conspiracies... inhibiting research because again, he (Washenik), left us hanging.

Is it reasonable to say that given the fact that Bosley has a billion clinics, bought MHR which expands their clinics to a trillion... that it might be possible that they would not like this research to go through?

BB,

I agree with you!




hairtech_ is located in MINNEAPOLIS,MN and he is available to meet: NO

---
Hairtech
Shapiro Medical Group


Post reply
benji

29.07.2007, 22:56

@ hairtech_

Aderans has already begun Phase I trials...

I'll be honest too in saying that I have NOT followed HM that much since
the days of BAZAN and his stuff. When I visited Jerry Cooley this year,
he showed me the Intercytex stuff and that was compelling.

Then I see aderans/Washenik(essentially Bosley) two cell approach and was
again compelled to start monitoring this stuff.

We are getting close fellas. But I have a problem. Bosley's interest in
speeding up research or if one wants to think in conspiracies...
inhibiting research because again, he (Washenik), left us hanging.

Is it reasonable to say that given the fact that Bosley has a billion
clinics, bought MHR which expands their clinics to a trillion... that it
might be possible that they would not like this research to go through?

BB,

I agree with you!




Thats no doubt true of Tom Bosley himself. In interviews he had been more than just skeptical of HM, he was downright hostile and aked "how much better does it have to be" when pointing at Ken Washenik, who has had five transplants.

However, Phoenixbio and Shishedo (Japanese companies) are now in the HM research game and both have patents in the art. Even if HM was somehow "smothered" by Bosley (owned by Aderans), one would think that ICX or the two Japanese companies would someday come out with it if it can be made to work. Bosley and MHR (can you believe anyone would allow MHR to actually touch their scalp? Egad the horror stories Ive read over the years from that bunch) probably could not keep buying out every little would-be HM start up. Id be suprised if that was what was going on with Aderans..............Kurt Stenn would not be apartied to that in my opinion and he'd just flat leave the company. He is involved in Folica with Costarialis now as well as Aderans.


Aderans has been the biggest dissapointment in HM up till now. They came out with the biggest talk, the earliet projectons, only to get passed up by a little bio-company from England who has been much better about releasing information, updating their site, getting one trial finished and another started, releasing a picture, actually doing an interview with hairsite. Aderans has been a stone wall of silence occasionally interrupted by Washenik appearing in some media making a crazy prediction like 2009 when they havent even done a phase one trial for the FDA yet.




benji is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
benji

29.07.2007, 23:01

@ benji

Aderans announced PLANS for a phase one trial in Britan

"London, United Kingdom, July, 2006 Aderans Research, the specialist tissue engineering research group for hair loss, has announced plans for the commencement of London based clinical studies for the treatment of hair loss using its unique tissue engineering technique, a bio engineered hair loss solution that cultivates a persons own cells to overcome the problem of insufficient hair supply and pattern baldness"



"..........has announced PLANS for the commencement of London based clincial STUDIES for the treatment of hairloss using its unique tissue engineering......."


What does "plans for STUDIES (not "trials"???) mean?



Have they really started the trial? Has anyone's head been shot up with cells or no? I wonder. Ive never gotten a response from them when Ive emailed them.




benji is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
BostonBaldy

29.07.2007, 23:09

@ benji

Aderans has already begun Phase I trials...

Hey guys,

The whole thing is like an HM orgy when you analyze it... b/c Bosley, which of course is owned by Aderans, and Intercytex agreed in 2005 that Bosley would be given "exclusive" first negotiation rights for ICX-TRC. But Bosley will of course also be given exclusive negotiation rights for Washenik's work through Aderans Research Inc. In essence Aderans, the japanese wig maker, has bought out the HM market.

Of course Washenik knows this... so could it be that he's developing a "second generation" HM after Intercytex and Bosley releases ICX-TRC? Is that why he's so quiet about Phase I?

As far as Bosley, I don't think he's limiting hair research at Aderans Research Inc. But it is odd when you realize Intercytex and Aderans Research Inc really aren't competitors in the strict sense...

All the best,
BB




BostonBaldy is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
BostonBaldy

29.07.2007, 23:12

@ benji

Aderans announced PLANS for a phase one trial in Britan

Here is the "trial news" from Aderans' Phase I trial website:

"We are in the process of recruiting subjects into a Phase 1 clinical trial for hair restoration in London.

This clinical trial has received approval from the East London and The City Ethics Committee 1.

The trial is being conducted at 2 clinical locations in London. The London Bridge Hospital and The Cosmetic Surgery Center on Harley Street were selected based upon the expertise of the surgeons who practice there."

Also, check out a few of the earlier posts. People emailed Aderans and they said they had already begun Phase I trials. It appears the website has not been updated since 2006.




BostonBaldy is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
benji

29.07.2007, 23:16

@ BostonBaldy

Aderans has already begun Phase I trials...

...............hmmm...............sounds like they are actually in phase one then. Good for them (and us, I hope).


Im ready to see something out of Washenik and his crew other than TV interviews and timelines and wildy optomistic timelines. Seeing that photo from ICX still has me psyched, and as this year passes, news from phase 2 inching closer also has me psyched.




benji is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
hairtech_

E-mail

Minneapolis,MN,
29.07.2007, 23:19

@ benji

Aderans has already begun Phase I trials...

So I took a few weeks out of my life this year and went underground to work at MHR and Bosley. I wanted to know how and why they were so popular and how they operated... a mole if you will.

Seeing how big Bosley is on the inside.. seeing an efficiently streamlined operation... made me question why they would have interest in follicle multiplication. Why rock the boat of what appeared to me as a true "hair mill" money generating slaughter house. And to add MH-shade (MHR) to the mix, frightened me more.

So the bottom line is this... What I was exposed to Saturday at the webinar... was so damn interesting and I could not believe we were left with no future answers. It was an advanced webinar, which meant all participants were of the doctor status(an inside view)... so I could not understand the why things had not progressed past what you guys/gals have spoke about many times already.

BTW Boston Baldy... I was in Boston this year. My friend lives there. We went to BU and Harvard to look around. I like Boston.




hairtech_ is located in MINNEAPOLIS,MN and he is available to meet: NO

---
Hairtech
Shapiro Medical Group


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