Hair Loss Forum - Dr. Gho: "We extract only a very small part of the hair follicle..."
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roger_that

MARYLAND,
20.11.2011, 10:33
(edited by roger_that, 20.11.2011, 11:14)
 

Dr. Gho: "We extract only a very small part of the hair follicle..." (Hair Multiplication & Stem Cells Treatment)

In ScissorBoy's video of his HST procedure at Dr. Gho's London HASCI clinic, Dr. Gho says, "We extract only a very small part of the hair follicle instead of the whole follicle."

Then he says, "We extract only a very small part of the follicle, like this, we put this in a fertilizer..."

This is different from the way Spanish Dude described his idea of the procedure. Spanish Dude (and others) have said that Gho removes the ENTIRE follicle, then slices it in half and bathes both halves in a petri dish, then re-implants one half in the original donor site and one half in the recipient site.

In ScissorBoy's video, Dr. Gho uses his automatic device (a drill) to "remove the stem cells" or "remove the grafts". He says "we don't penetrate the skin deeper than 2 or 3 millimeters. That's enough... for extracting the follicular stem cells."

Then he puts the "grafts" into a petri dish containing "fertilizer".

Apparently the key to Gho's procedure is that he is drilling out only a PART of the follicle -- NOT the entire follicle. He is only penetrating 2-3 millimeters, so he's not getting the bottom part of the follicle (the bulb).

Incidentally, if he's not extracting the bulb, which is where the Dermal Sheath Cup Cells are located (per Dr. Kevin McElwee and Replicel), and those cells are so vital to the continuation of hair growth, then one would expect the donor site would grow back completely.

It would be good to hear from ScissorBoy how successful the procedure was -- what the yield was in the recipient area, and whether the donor area grew back completely.

It would also be helpful if Dr. Gho could zero in on a small area, say a 2-cm circle on the back of someone's scalp, shave it, drill all of the follicles (partially, as he does) with his device, and then determine if the area grows back completely.

A concern raised by Spanish Dude is that not all the follicles would be in the same phase of the cycle, so if he drilled all the visible (terminal) ones, there could still be others in telogen phase which are not visible. Spanish Dude's contention is that when these telogen follicles grow back, they would mask the deficiencies in Gho's procedure by leading us to believe they were the follicles that he extracted.

Actually, this fact wouldn't hurt the experiment, because what we're really looking for, long term, is whether or not the extracted zone grows back to a sufficient cosmetic level to say it's not denuded of hair at any given time. This is because every part of a normal (non MPB) person's scalp which is supposed to have cosmetically visible hair growth with full density, ALWAYS has cosmetically visible hair growth with full density, regardless of the fact that different follicles will be in different phases of the cycle at any given time. This is also true of non-MPB areas of MPB sufferers' scalps.

So either the extracted zone will have full density, or it won't. This will be easy to see.




roger_that is located in MARYLAND and he is available to meet: YES
email hairsite@aol.com to arrange a meeting.


Post reply
KO

20.11.2011, 11:42

@ roger_that

Dr. Gho: "We extract only a very small part of the hair follicle..."

It makes no sense to remove a follicle, split it into two and put part of it back in. Although splitting follicles has been believed to be possible by many, including Aderans, problem is doing it consistently. I believe even Follica had patents for splitting follicles and removing part.




KO is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
roger_that

MARYLAND,
20.11.2011, 12:36

@ KO

regarding Follica

» I believe even Follica had patents for splitting follicles and removing part.

Yes, I think you're right, they did get a patent for this, and this is even more evidence to me that Follica is a badly-run company which is trying everything under the sun to gain a foothold in the market, when they really have nothing original to offer.

Follica patented this "splitting follicles" idea AFTER it became very evident that Gho was already doing it -- whether splitting the follicles inside or outside of the scalp, it doesn't matter -- it's essentially the same concept. Basically, it looks like they just lifted the idea from Gho, making a few minor changes.

When Follica came into existence, they claimed they had a unique, revolutionary, proprietary "technology" or concept based on Dr. Cotsarelis' research, which would grow hair.

It turned out that the research in question was just basic research, not really an evolved technology, and the research alone wasn't enough to create a real product or treatment that worked.

So then Follica started blindly thrashing around for ANYTHING that would grow hair -- they quickly got superficially involved in a myriad of treatments -- everything from lithium to splitting follicles, wildly filing patents for everything.

They just scanned the market for any ideas which looked promising, and then quickly re-framed the ideas so they could receive their own patent for them. Even things that had been under discussion for a long time -- like Gho's "hair multiplication" (splitting follicles) and lithium... Follica tried it all. Very desperate, no?

This makes it evident to me that Follica really has nothing. Their primary concern is not to develop or market a fully-researched product, because they have none of their own. Their primary concern is to keep the company afloat by strategically investing in patents in a wide range of ideas, in the hopes that if they throw enough stuff against the wall, something will stick.

This is a dishonest business strategy that's typical of many American technology companies. Many tech companies -- large and small -- are more concerned about surviving into the next quarter and maintaining income for the CEO, than in really developing viable technologies. So their main focus is not to develop anything in an honest way, but to gobble up more and more intellectual property, to raise the valuation of the company, so they can eventually cash out with a profit.




roger_that is located in MARYLAND and he is available to meet: YES
email hairsite@aol.com to arrange a meeting.


Post reply
KO

20.11.2011, 14:03

@ roger_that

regarding Follica

I don't think there's anything wrong with them exploring multiple ideas. I think if anything that only strengthens my hope in the firm. I wish every possible angle were looked at. It is irresponsible for a firm to bet all its hopes on a treatment and have it not pan out (Intercytex).


Now while you're right that Follica has done multiple tangential patents from splitting hairs via lasers to EGFR-inhibition to immunosuppression, the topical lithium trial is really in line with their original idea of wnt-upregulation. If anything, there is more scientific support for that than immunosuprresion or EGFR-inhibition. While it may seem like they were changing tracks, it's probably more fruitful for them to focus on lithium.

Ultimately these guys are some of the brightest minds in the field, they certainly may be unsuccessful, but what else can we do?




KO is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
Iron_Man

20.11.2011, 14:24

@ KO

regarding Follica

» Ultimately these guys are some of the brightest minds in the field, they
» certainly may be unsuccessful, but what else can we do?

Waiting - minimum 5 - 10 years ...




Iron_Man is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO

---
I documented the world’s 1st day-by-day (HST) donor hair regeneration process …


Post reply
roger_that

MARYLAND,
20.11.2011, 14:53

@ KO

Follica = vaporware

» I don't think there's anything wrong with them exploring multiple ideas. I
» think if anything that only strengthens my hope in the firm. I wish every
» possible angle were looked at. It is irresponsible for a firm to bet all
» its hopes on a treatment and have it not pan out (Intercytex).

You give Follica too much credit. I think they're just going through the literature and old research and ideas, and putting their twist on them, and then filing patent applications without fully researching these ideas. They're doing this for their benefit, not for ours. The more IP a company can accumulate, the greater its valuation, and that means a good exit strategy for the principals.

It's all business strategy. Where have we seen real research results for anything Follica has done with lithium, immunosuppressants, wnt, lasers being used to split follicles, or any of this stuff? It's all theoretical vaporware intended to build up their IP portfolio so they can sell the company at a profit.

This is US business strategy circa 2011... it's all the BS they teach in business schools, which is what got our economy into such a mess.




roger_that is located in MARYLAND and he is available to meet: YES
email hairsite@aol.com to arrange a meeting.


Post reply
KO

20.11.2011, 15:46

@ roger_that

Follica = vaporware

In short, we haven't seen their results in humans. Partly because their results have not been released. However, in mice they have been successful, and while certainly we want to see NW 7 patients grow hair, that's really the best we can do right now. I think it makes a lot of sense for them to try lithium, there's a substantial amount of science backing up that protocol, we just need to see if it works in humans.

Considering that these guys are actually engaged in clinical trials, why not just wait for them to release Phase 2 results (or start Phase 3) before writing them off?




KO is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
roger_that

MARYLAND,
20.11.2011, 15:59

@ KO

Follica = vaporware

» Considering that these guys are actually engaged in clinical trials, why
» not just wait for them to release Phase 2 results (or start Phase 3) before
» writing them off?

It's not even clear to me what is being tested, or how, in their "Phase 2 trials".

Seriously, for so much hype, you'd think we'd know more. What exactly are they testing? Lithium? Wnt? In what form? Liquid? Injections? Who are they testing it on, and where are their trials located? Has this information even been publicized?

Replicel may be conducting trials in faraway Georgia, but we've been told exactly what they're doing -- down to the numbers of patients tested, exactly where the cells are taken from, where they're being sent for culturing, etc., etc. down to the last detail from David Hall, their CEO.

If Follica already has a patent on its product, why won't they tell us what's in it?




roger_that is located in MARYLAND and he is available to meet: YES
email hairsite@aol.com to arrange a meeting.


Post reply
Mr. Z

20.11.2011, 19:06

@ KO

regarding Follica

» I don't think there's anything wrong with them exploring multiple ideas. I
» think if anything that only strengthens my hope in the firm. I wish every
» possible angle were looked at. It is irresponsible for a firm to bet all
» its hopes on a treatment and have it not pan out (Intercytex).
»
»
» Now while you're right that Follica has done multiple tangential patents
» from splitting hairs via lasers to EGFR-inhibition to immunosuppression,
» the topical lithium trial is really in line with their original idea of
» wnt-upregulation. If anything, there is more scientific support for that
» than immunosuprresion or EGFR-inhibition. While it may seem like they were
» changing tracks, it's probably more fruitful for them to focus on lithium.
»
» Ultimately these guys are some of the brightest minds in the field, they
» certainly may be unsuccessful, but what else can we do?


Not only is there nothing wrong with exploring multiple ideas; it's absolutely essential for them to be successful in the future. They need to protect their line of research from other companies that can mimic their idea with only slight alterations to their protocol. That is why you're seeing them patent these variations. It's only marginally related to them seeing what works and what doesn't. It's very important that they prevent other companies from poaching on their work. For a good example of how not to proceed, look at Aderans. They've boxed themselves into a corner with the types of cells they can use and now Replicel comes along and can take them down using an almost identical approach with one small variation...different cell type. If Replicel's procedure works even slightly better than Aderans, they're done, out of business, millions of dollars lost. Follica appears to be working a little smarter than that.

They've already pushed the lithium protocol through phase II trials. That is promising, but, we won't know until they make their next move; be it releasing results or starting phase III, or even a new round of money invested would be a good sign. If they start a phase III that would mean they saw good results with phase II and would be the most promising piece of info to date. Let's hope we see them move on this soon. If not, phase II might have been a failure. We just don't know yet.




Mr. Z is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
KO

20.11.2011, 19:30

@ roger_that

Follica = vaporware

»
» It's not even clear to me what is being tested, or how, in their "Phase 2
» trials".
»
» Seriously, for so much hype, you'd think we'd know more. What exactly are
» they testing? Lithium? Wnt? In what form? Liquid? Injections? Who
» are they testing it on, and where are their trials located? Has this
» information even been publicized?
»

They are testing 8% topical Lithium Gluconate after dermabrasion in Germany. Twice daily for a week, with perhaps multiple rounds.

https://www.clinicaltrialsregister.eu/ctr-search/trial/2009-018191-34/DE

The patent is here:
http://www.wipo.int/patentscope/search/en/WO2011031990

Follica doesn't talk about it, but this information is all there.

If you want to read the scientific background about this treatment, then read up on the role of beta-catenin, then look at how it is affected by GSK-3, and what is lithium's role in that.




KO is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
roger_that

MARYLAND,
20.11.2011, 19:36

@ Mr. Z

regarding Follica

» Not only is there nothing wrong with exploring multiple ideas; it's
» absolutely essential for them to be successful in the future. They need to
» protect their line of research from other companies that can mimic their
» idea with only slight alterations to their protocol. That is why you're
» seeing them patent these variations. It's only marginally related to them
» seeing what works and what doesn't. It's very important that they prevent
» other companies from poaching on their work. For a good example of how not
» to proceed, look at Aderans. They've boxed themselves into a corner with
» the types of cells they can use and now Replicel comes along and can take
» them down using an almost identical approach with one small
» variation...different cell type. If Replicel's procedure works even
» slightly better than Aderans, they're done, out of business, millions of
» dollars lost. Follica appears to be working a little smarter than that.

You make some very good points here, Mr. Z. However, I get the idea with Follica that most of these things they're patenting are NOT things they've actually researched. Most of them are basically variations on someone else's research that Follica hasn't done anything on, except for maybe having some brainstorming sessions in their office to come up with a new angle, something they can patent quickly to boost their IP portfolio. Is this kind of "roll of the dice" speculative approach an honest way to use investors' money? What happens if these patents don't pan out?

Your point about Aderans' bad strategy is great, though. Aderans is on the other extreme from Follica. I think Aderans is a more "honest" company, though, with more straightforward leadership concentrating on science rather than typical American "fast buck" Ivy League business school strategy. With Daphne Zohar, I get the impression that she's kind of led a privileged life, her father was a prominent doctor, she had all this financial backing from the Boston elite, and she's in the game more as a "serial entrepreneur", building the company to flip it and make a bundle, rather than someone who has a real personal mission to cure baldness. Sure, she may be very enthusiastic about it, but I get the idea that if she weren't doing hairloss, she'd be doing something completely different in business. (Two of her previous companies involved some kind of women's purse, and some kind of horse shoe apparatus.)

Aderans has stuck with the plan they started with, although now they're adding minor variations like growth factors, tissue wounding, etc. Their principals are people who've spent their entire careers involved in hair restoration research. Overall, though, they don't look very confident anymore and it appears Replicel might blast them out of the water.




roger_that is located in MARYLAND and he is available to meet: YES
email hairsite@aol.com to arrange a meeting.


Post reply
roger_that

MARYLAND,
20.11.2011, 19:50

@ KO

Follica = vaporware

» They are testing 8% topical Lithium Gluconate after dermabrasion in
» Germany. Twice daily for a week, with perhaps multiple rounds.
»
» https://www.clinicaltrialsregister.eu/ctr-search/trial/2009-018191-34/DE
»
» The patent is here:
» http://www.wipo.int/patentscope/search/en/WO2011031990
»
» Follica doesn't talk about it, but this information is all there.

Thanks for the info, KO. Much appreciated.




roger_that is located in MARYLAND and he is available to meet: YES
email hairsite@aol.com to arrange a meeting.


Post reply
roger_that

MARYLAND,
20.11.2011, 19:52

@ KO

Follica = vaporware

Although I do get a server error when I click on the Patent link.




roger_that is located in MARYLAND and he is available to meet: YES
email hairsite@aol.com to arrange a meeting.


Post reply
KO

20.11.2011, 20:09

@ roger_that

Follica = vaporware

» Although I do get a server error when I click on the Patent link.

Google "intermittent and pulse lithium treatments for modulating".

Also in my older post, read up on the role of b-catenin, GSK-3, and lithium's role in this interaction.




KO is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
roger_that

MARYLAND,
20.11.2011, 21:32

@ KO

Follica = vaporware

» » Although I do get a server error when I click on the Patent link.
»
» Google "intermittent and pulse lithium treatments for modulating".

Well, I think they are doing "pulse" lithium treatments because that's the only choice they have.

I hope people here research lithium, rather than doing the usual thing on this website, which is to order it on the internet and start using it without any kind of medical supervision or advice.

Lithium is a chemical ion that is used medically to treat mental disorders like manic depression. It is considered VERY highly prone to inducing negative side effects, so when taken orally (or through IV), its levels in the blood have to be monitored EXTREMELY CAREFULLY.

It's a very small molecule (a positive ion), so it passes very easily through the blood-brain barrier, and every other barrier in the body, and also can wreak havoc on the kidneys and other organ systems.

Obviously, then you don't want to take lithium orally to treat hairloss!

The problem is that because the ion is so small and passes so easily through all physiological barriers, that even when used topically to treat hairloss on the skin, it can also seep very readily into the bloodstream, through capillaries in the scalp. Then its major toxic effects can harm the body if its levels are not monitored very closely.

That's why they're using "intermittent" or "pulse" therapy.... something like treating every day for a week, then waiting months for the next go-round, then treating again every day for a week... something like that.

The problem with that is that there just might not be enough chronic exposure of the follicles to the lithium for it to have much effect.

We know that for most topicals like Rogaine, you basically have to rub it into the scalp once, or even twice a day, continually for months without a break, for it to have any visible effect at all.

For Lithium, this is made impossible by its very strong toxic effect and high absorption rates, so they use pulse therapy, but the downside of that is you're not exposing the skin enough to it.

It's a classic "Catch 22".

Lithium is too dangerous to use a lot of it, but you probably have to use a lot to grow any hair, so my guess is that its effectiveness as a viable treatment is very minimal.

All of this leads me to believe that any lithium-based therapy will be VERY difficult to get approved through the FDA, and if and when it is approved, will have a lot of requirements for blood levels to be monitored by an M.D., etc.

Doesn't sound like such a rosy scenario to me!




roger_that is located in MARYLAND and he is available to meet: YES
email hairsite@aol.com to arrange a meeting.


Post reply
KO

20.11.2011, 21:44

@ roger_that

Follica = vaporware

They have already addressed this in the patent, please read it carefully, there is a lot of information there.

They've found that topical application doesn't increase plasma levels of lithium considerably, nothing compared to oral administration of lithium, they cited that oral lithium created a blood concentration of lithium 900 times what topical lithium yielded. Point is, it is not that much lithium for the body, and remember we only want a small area in the skin to absorb it, a topical will be perfect for that.

As for FDA approval, 8% Lithium Gluconate (Lithioderm) has already been approved for seborrheic dermatitis.




KO is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
roger_that

MARYLAND,
20.11.2011, 22:05

@ KO

Follica = vaporware

» They have already addressed this in the patent, please read it carefully,
» there is a lot of information there.
»
» They've found that topical application doesn't increase plasma levels of
» lithium considerably, nothing compared to oral administration of lithium,
» they cited that oral lithium created a blood concentration of lithium 900
» times what topical lithium yielded. Point is, it is not that much lithium
» for the body, and remember we only want a small area in the skin to absorb
» it, a topical will be perfect for that.
»
» As for FDA approval, 8% Lithium Gluconate (Lithioderm) has already been
» approved for seborrheic dermatitis.

Thanks - good info!




roger_that is located in MARYLAND and he is available to meet: YES
email hairsite@aol.com to arrange a meeting.


Post reply
Spanish Dude

21.11.2011, 19:04

@ roger_that

Dr. Gho: "We extract only a very small part of the hair follicle..."

» In ScissorBoy's video of his HST procedure at Dr. Gho's London HASCI
» clinic, Dr. Gho says, "We extract only a very small part of the hair
» follicle instead of the whole follicle."
»
» Then he says, "We extract only a very small part of the follicle, like
» this, we put this in a fertilizer..."
»
» This is different from the way Spanish Dude described his idea of the
» procedure. Spanish Dude (and others) have said that Gho removes the ENTIRE
» follicle, then slices it in half and bathes both halves in a petri dish,
» then re-implants one half in the original donor site and one half in the
» recipient site.

No, I have never said that. Gho has always done bisection in-vivo. I told you in a previous thread, but you are still confused about this. It seems that you don't even know the basics of Gho's technique.




Spanish Dude is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


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