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15.05.2012, 21:49
 

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown (Hair Multiplication & Stem Cells Treatment)

Poll - requested by Boyintown.

Answer simple YES or NO to each of the questions below.

Boyintown will explain the reason for the poll.

POLL QUESTION:

Do you have moderate to severe hair loss and/or hair thinning,and also,

Poll Vote
 1. Acne?
16% (4) Yes
84% (21) No
  25 voters have answered this question.
 2. Oily hair?
60% (15) Yes
40% (10) No
  25 voters have answered this question.
 3. Dry or red eyes?
28% (7) Yes
72% (18) No
  25 voters have answered this question.
 4. You Never get real sick?
72% (18) Yes
28% (7) No
  25 voters have answered this question.

  Please Login to vote poll






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Post reply
gutted

22.05.2012, 21:33

@ Bryan

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» » I understand and fully take on board what doctors and scientists say. I
» » never disputed this, i only asked for it to be acknowledged that this
» » "androgens binding to the dermal papilla AR causing
» minuturisation/anagen
» » cycl shortening, in Vitro" study has the potential to be flawed and
» needs
» » to be looked at again - of course this is not only based on my anecdotal
» » experience but based on certain other studies such as - [snip]
»
» Top-notch hairloss researchers have all shown the exact same thing: when
» androgens are given to either humans or other balding primates (like
» stumptailed macaques), the same thing happens: the growth of those scalp
» hair follicles is suppressed. The exact OPPOSITE of that happens when
» body hair follicles are used, instead: growth is actually
» STIMULATED by androgens. The same thing also happens when the hair
» follicles are removed from the body altogether, and put in a test tube or
» petri dish: scalp follicles are suppressed by androgens, while body hair
» follicles are stimulated by those same androgens.
»
» You need to face the scientific facts, and stop harping on this silly idea
» that "infections" are what affect hair growth. Bacteria don't affect hair
» growth when follicles are sitting in a petri dish.

Bacteria ARE natrually present in the hair follicle. So it can be assumed Bacteria WAS indeed present in the dissected follcile.

I think based on my observations im already convinced that bacteria are the cause of mpb, and nothing you or anyone else says will convince me that androgens cause baldness/hair minutuarisation.

I do state however, this is NOT PROVEN just as a disclaimer for the, naive, hair loss sufferers that may be reading this, which there are plenty of!

I on the other hand will be proactive rather than take in flawed science! :)




gutted is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
Iron_Man 

Losers Nightmares,
22.05.2012, 21:10

@ Bryan

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» You need to face the scientific facts, and stop harping on this silly idea
» that "infections" are what affect hair growth. Bacteria don't affect hair
» growth when follicles are sitting in a petri dish.

^ this.

It's not an infection. It's not your immune system and it's not your diet. Please stop posting this nonsense.


Message me so I could send you a coupon for 10% for Dr.Gho's services.

Dr.Gho - the real cure to hair loss!




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Post reply
Bryan

22.05.2012, 19:52

@ gutted

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» I understand and fully take on board what doctors and scientists say. I
» never disputed this, i only asked for it to be acknowledged that this
» "androgens binding to the dermal papilla AR causing minuturisation/anagen
» cycl shortening, in Vitro" study has the potential to be flawed and needs
» to be looked at again - of course this is not only based on my anecdotal
» experience but based on certain other studies such as - [snip]

Top-notch hairloss researchers have all shown the exact same thing: when androgens are given to either humans or other balding primates (like stumptailed macaques), the same thing happens: the growth of those scalp hair follicles is suppressed. The exact OPPOSITE of that happens when body hair follicles are used, instead: growth is actually STIMULATED by androgens. The same thing also happens when the hair follicles are removed from the body altogether, and put in a test tube or petri dish: scalp follicles are suppressed by androgens, while body hair follicles are stimulated by those same androgens.

You need to face the scientific facts, and stop harping on this silly idea that "infections" are what affect hair growth. Bacteria don't affect hair growth when follicles are sitting in a petri dish.




Bryan is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
gutted

22.05.2012, 13:51

@ hairman2

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» » These so called "scientific facts" need to be looked at again as i
» 1000%
» » believe (but obviously cannot prove) there is no such thing as hair
» is
» » "destined" to go bald, it is because of damage caused by the immune
» system
» » because of micro-infection that causes hair cells damage and
» » eventually cause them to shut down production of a hair i.e terminal to
» » vellus.
»
» no one cares in personal belief if it cannot be proven. You can believe in
» Mohammed, Jesus or the flying spaghetti Monster.. without proof it has no
» value

i agree with you there.




gutted is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
hairman2

22.05.2012, 13:45

@ gutted

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» These so called "scientific facts" need to be looked at again as i 1000%
» believe (but obviously cannot prove) there is no such thing as hair is
» "destined" to go bald, it is because of damage caused by the immune system
» because of micro-infection that causes hair cells damage and
» eventually cause them to shut down production of a hair i.e terminal to
» vellus.

no one cares in personal belief if it cannot be proven. You can believe in Mohammed, Jesus or the flying spaghetti Monster.. without proof it has no value




hairman2 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
gutted

22.05.2012, 13:23
(edited by gutted, 22.05.2012, 13:44)

@ Bryan

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» » » » Follicles need DHT to grow!! Stop this nonsense that DHT causes
» » » » hair loss
» » »
» » » You're completely, totally cuckoo.
» »
» » Bryan, just give up. For some reason he is obsessed with his theory, and
» I
» » can't spot why.
»
» I think you're right, KO! After you explain repeatedly what doctors
» and scientists say on this issue and all they do is keep repeating the same
» tired things over and over and over, it's time just to give it up! :-)

I understand and fully take on board what doctors and scientists say. I never disputed this, i only asked for it to be acknowledged that this "androgens binding to the dermal papilla AR causing minuturisation/anagen cycl shortening, in Vitro" study has the potential to be flawed and needs to be looked at again - of course this is not only based on my anecdotal experience but based on certain other studies such as -

certain antibiotics causing hair re-growth - people probably assume the hair growth properties are due to a secondary unknown mechanism BUT this may not be the case and it could be the traditional infection killing properties antibiotics are known for.

Certain anti inflammotaries causing hair regrowth.

These so called "scientific facts" need to be looked at again as i 1000% believe (but obviously cannot prove) there is no such thing as hair is "destined" to go bald, it is because of damage caused by the immune system because of micro-infection that causes hair cells damage and eventually cause them to shut down production of a hair i.e terminal to vellus.

Fin helps indirectly by lowering androgens in the body, be it tissue/serum/systemic androgens, for the body to clear the infection causing thinning hair to thicken back up BUT not once hair cells have shut down production.

Heres something you may laugh at too bryan -

Fin does NOT need to be taken on a continuous basis, it only needs to be taken for the duration the infection is present to help the body wipe the infection.

But once users get off fin "Destined, Catch up baldness" (no such thing) is percieved because once a person gets off fin, over many many years - slowly but steadily, homestasis was taking its course during the users time on fin, causing a slow but steady rise in the infection spreading and clearing again.
Once a user totally gets off the drug - this causes a massive spike in tissue/systemic androgen levels causing the knock on effect on major reinfection starting and spreading and clearing again, thus further advancing baldness(hair minutrision/anagen hair cycle shortneing which eventually causes certain cells to shut down production of a hair i.e terminal to vellus) at a very fast pace - THIS is why "catch up baldness" is percieved!

Baldness can be distilled down to a micorinfection that results because of unaccepatable levels of androgens/igf1/other sebgland/sweat gland modulators fuelling this infection and reinfection.

All that is needed to treat (not to cure) a person of baldness is to periodically use an antibiotic THIS is what fin indirectly allows the body to do!

There are reports antibiotics cause hair loss in individuals - this is NOT hair loss, this is the antibiotic clearing the infection at the hair follcile cells i.e hair shedding, which also sometimes occurs with fin.

Nizoral/tgel was used in the merck study for a reason!

Of course this is not proven and is my own theory.




gutted is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
Bryan

22.05.2012, 03:47

@ KO

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» » » Follicles need DHT to grow!! Stop this nonsense that DHT causes
» » » hair loss
» »
» » You're completely, totally cuckoo.
»
» Bryan, just give up. For some reason he is obsessed with his theory, and I
» can't spot why.

I think you're right, KO! After you explain repeatedly what doctors and scientists say on this issue and all they do is keep repeating the same tired things over and over and over, it's time just to give it up! :-)




Bryan is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
KO

21.05.2012, 23:41

@ Bryan

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» » Follicles need DHT to grow!! Stop this nonsense that DHT causes hair
» loss
»
» You're completely, totally cuckoo.

Bryan, just give up. For some reason he is obsessed with his theory, and I can't spot why.




KO is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
gutted

21.05.2012, 22:28

@ Iron_Man 

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» » » Follicles need DHT to grow!! Stop this nonsense that DHT causes hair
» » loss
» »
» » You're completely, totally cuckoo.
»
» then how do you explain the fact that Gho's procedure cures hair loss
» permanently 100%

2020 stop trolling as iron man!




gutted is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
Iron_Man 

Losers Nightmares,
21.05.2012, 22:24

@ Bryan

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» » Follicles need DHT to grow!! Stop this nonsense that DHT causes hair
» loss
»
» You're completely, totally cuckoo.

then how do you explain the fact that Gho's procedure cures hair loss permanently 100%




Iron_Man  is located in LOSERS NIGHTMARES and he is available to meet: NO

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Post reply
gutted

21.05.2012, 22:14

@ Bryan

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» » And you need to pay attention to the possibility that some of those
» » facts may be flawed!
»
» The fact that androgens DIRECTLY affect scalp hair follicles isn't
» "flawed". It's common knowledge. You need to start reading what doctors
» and scientists say, and stop paying attention to your "theory".

yes...possibly flawed, "common" knowlege.




gutted is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
Bryan

21.05.2012, 22:01

@ gutted

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» And you need to pay attention to the possibility that some of those
» facts may be flawed!

The fact that androgens DIRECTLY affect scalp hair follicles isn't "flawed". It's common knowledge. You need to start reading what doctors and scientists say, and stop paying attention to your "theory".




Bryan is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
gutted

21.05.2012, 21:49

@ Bryan

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» » I explained with mk386 - it doesnt matter which enzyme is inhibited, type
» 1
» » or type 2. Type 2 is more prominent and feeds the body with probably the
» » most the dht (systemic and tissue alike).
» » Type one probably feeds the body with a 1/3 - inhibiting a 1/3 (with
» mk386)
» » of the dht most likley never helped the body (immune system) in getting
» rid
» » of this microinfection that appears - you need to think of it like this
» -
» » if the body is trying to get rid of an infection but
» dht/igf1/testosterone,
» » fluctuate to high levels, pumping out whatever it is feeding the
» bacteria
» » causing overgrowth at the same time, its being prevented from totally
» » removing that infection....we need a balance of the 2 scales, this is
» what
» » fin does in some lucky individuals.
»
» Systemic levels of DHT (DHT in the bloodstream, in other words) have
» relatively little effect on hair follicles or sebaceous glands. The type 2
» and type 1 forms of 5a-reductase affect those structures when they actually
» contain those forms of 5a-reductase. Your explanation that MK386
» has no effect on hair because of only a relatively minor effect on DHT
» levels in the blood is just an excuse. It's dead WRONG.
»


I said systemic AS WELL AS tissue levels of dht.
Im not denying DHT is a factor in hairloss - BUT an indirect factor.


» » Androgens do not surpress growth according to my thoery - this,
» hopefully
» » in sometime in th future will be proven.
» » They may indirectly surpress growth via an increase in bacteria but
» » accoring to my theory they do not surpress growth directly via DP AR.
» »
» » » I had to laugh when you said in an earlier post that
» » » "DHT and androgens are required for the growth of hair",
» » » because that's the LEAST scientific thing I can imagine anybody
» » » ever saying about hair loss! It's fine to speculate along the
» » » lines that sebum might have SOMETHING to do with balding (by way
» » » of the immune system), but it becomes simply laughable to say
» » » that DHT is required for scalp hair to grow! :-)
» »
» » whether they are required or not required for growth, doesnt matter -
» they
» » may be needed to maintain the hair cycle or may not be (im not aware of
» the
» » facts) - but what i do say is androgens have NO DIRECT,
» » NEGATIVE effects on hair, according to my theory of course.
»
» You need to stop paying attention to your THEORY, and start going by the
» FACTS of the matter. Doctors and scientists have soundly PROVEN that
» androgens have a direct negative effect on scalp hair follicles. This
» isn't something controversial, it's common knowledge! It's time for you to
» become familiar with the science of this matter, and not simply go
» around repeating things that have to do with your silly theory.

And you need to pay attention to the possibility that some of those facts may be flawed!

Pre programmed minituarisation is simply a myth based on potentially flawed science, that really does need to be looked at again.




gutted is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
Bryan

21.05.2012, 21:26

@ Iron_Man 

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» Follicles need DHT to grow!! Stop this nonsense that DHT causes hair loss

You're completely, totally cuckoo.




Bryan is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
Bryan

21.05.2012, 21:07

@ gutted

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» I explained with mk386 - it doesnt matter which enzyme is inhibited, type 1
» or type 2. Type 2 is more prominent and feeds the body with probably the
» most the dht (systemic and tissue alike).
» Type one probably feeds the body with a 1/3 - inhibiting a 1/3 (with mk386)
» of the dht most likley never helped the body (immune system) in getting rid
» of this microinfection that appears - you need to think of it like this -
» if the body is trying to get rid of an infection but dht/igf1/testosterone,
» fluctuate to high levels, pumping out whatever it is feeding the bacteria
» causing overgrowth at the same time, its being prevented from totally
» removing that infection....we need a balance of the 2 scales, this is what
» fin does in some lucky individuals.

Systemic levels of DHT (DHT in the bloodstream, in other words) have relatively little effect on hair follicles or sebaceous glands. The type 2 and type 1 forms of 5a-reductase affect those structures when they actually contain those forms of 5a-reductase. Your explanation that MK386 has no effect on hair because of only a relatively minor effect on DHT levels in the blood is just an excuse. It's dead WRONG.

» Androgens do not surpress growth according to my thoery - this, hopefully
» in sometime in th future will be proven.
» They may indirectly surpress growth via an increase in bacteria but
» accoring to my theory they do not surpress growth directly via DP AR.
»
» » I had to laugh when you said in an earlier post that
» » "DHT and androgens are required for the growth of hair",
» » because that's the LEAST scientific thing I can imagine anybody
» » ever saying about hair loss! It's fine to speculate along the
» » lines that sebum might have SOMETHING to do with balding (by way
» » of the immune system), but it becomes simply laughable to say
» » that DHT is required for scalp hair to grow! :-)
»
» whether they are required or not required for growth, doesnt matter - they
» may be needed to maintain the hair cycle or may not be (im not aware of the
» facts) - but what i do say is androgens have NO DIRECT,
» NEGATIVE effects on hair, according to my theory of course.

You need to stop paying attention to your THEORY, and start going by the FACTS of the matter. Doctors and scientists have soundly PROVEN that androgens have a direct negative effect on scalp hair follicles. This isn't something controversial, it's common knowledge! It's time for you to become familiar with the science of this matter, and not simply go around repeating things that have to do with your silly theory.




Bryan is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
Iron_Man 

Losers Nightmares,
21.05.2012, 20:45

@ gutted

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

Follicles need DHT to grow!! Stop this nonsense that DHT causes hair loss




Iron_Man  is located in LOSERS NIGHTMARES and he is available to meet: NO

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Post reply
gutted

21.05.2012, 17:20

@ Bryan

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» Androgens suppress
» the growth of scalp hair follicles, and they do it both in vivo and
» in vitro; since that's the OPPOSITE of what happens with most body
» hair, that proves that there's a difference in the design of scalp
» hair follicles (because of genetics, evidently), compared to most body hair
» (like hair follicles in the mustache).

i explained in an earlier post, genetics is probably also a component to why some people go bald and others dont, but certainly not the genetics of the AR gene or individual hair follciles themselves which current science states.

The genetics part can be explained by various ways.

The distribution/concentration of the the sebglands/sweat glands between the donor site and the balding site, with a higher concentration/distribution in the balding site.

Sebgland/sweat gland distribution/concentration is genetically determined when you are born. People who dont go bald are those that are lucky to have a low distribution/concentration of those glands in the scalp.




gutted is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
gutted

21.05.2012, 13:37

@ Bryan

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» I can't help but notice, "gutted", that you haven't made any reply to me
» since early yesterday. I can imagine that you may have been a little
» confused by what I said about differences in the effects of MK386 and
» finasteride, so you tried to blame that on supposed effects on sebum
» production.

which post was that?

I explained with mk386 - it doesnt matter which enzyme is inhibited, type 1 or type 2. Type 2 is more prominent and feeds the body with probably the most the dht (systemic and tissue alike).
Type one probably feeds the body with a 1/3 - inhibiting a 1/3 (with mk386) of the dht most likley never helped the body (immune system) in getting rid of this microinfection that appears - you need to think of it like this - if the body is trying to get rid of an infection but dht/igf1/testosterone, fluctuate to high levels, pumping out whatever it is feeding the bacteria causing overgrowth at the same time, its being prevented from totally removing that infection....we need a balance of the 2 scales, this is what fin does in some lucky individuals.

The study was 14 days long? how does anyone expect any benneficial effects/or lack of on hair in this time frame?
According to my thoery - testosterone/igf1 ALSO needs to be taken into account.

If that's the case, then let's avoid altogether the
» complicated issue of 5a-reductase inhibition, and stick with just the
» direct effect of androgens on hair follicles! Androgens suppress
» the growth of scalp hair follicles, and they do it both in vivo and
» in vitro;
since that's the OPPOSITE of what happens with most body
» hair, that proves that there's a difference in the design of scalp
» hair follicles (because of genetics, evidently), compared to most body hair
» (like hair follicles in the mustache).

I already explained the study MAY have been flawed with reasons outlined in my ealrier post.
The sebgland may have already been infected OR contain those bacteria and immune cells may have also been present surpressing the growth upon administration of andorgens.

Androgens do not surpress growth according to my thoery - this, hopefully in sometime in th future will be proven.
They may indirectly surpress growth via an increase in bacteria but accoring to my theory they do not surpress growth directly via DP AR.

»I had to laugh when you said in an
» ealier post that "DHT and androgens are required for the growth of hair",
» because that's the LEAST scientific thing I can imagine anybody ever saying
» about hair loss! It's fine to speculate along the lines that sebum might
» have SOMETHING to do with balding (by way of the immune system), but it
» becomes simply laughable to say that DHT is required for scalp hair
» to grow! :-)

whether they are required or not required for growth, doesnt matter - they may be needed to maintain the hair cycle or may not be (im not aware of the facts) - but what i do say is androgens have NO DIRECT, NEGATIVE effects on hair, according to my theory of course.




gutted is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
Bryan

21.05.2012, 05:52

@ Bryan

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

I can't help but notice, "gutted", that you haven't made any reply to me since early yesterday. I can imagine that you may have been a little confused by what I said about differences in the effects of MK386 and finasteride, so you tried to blame that on supposed effects on sebum production. If that's the case, then let's avoid altogether the complicated issue of 5a-reductase inhibition, and stick with just the direct effect of androgens on hair follicles! Androgens suppress the growth of scalp hair follicles, and they do it both in vivo and in vitro; since that's the OPPOSITE of what happens with most body hair, that proves that there's a difference in the design of scalp hair follicles (because of genetics, evidently), compared to most body hair (like hair follicles in the mustache). I had to laugh when you said in an ealier post that "DHT and androgens are required for the growth of hair", because that's the LEAST scientific thing I can imagine anybody ever saying about hair loss! It's fine to speculate along the lines that sebum might have SOMETHING to do with balding (by way of the immune system), but it becomes simply laughable to say that DHT is required for scalp hair to grow! :-)




Bryan is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
Ahab

21.05.2012, 00:36

@ Bryan

Your Answer

» I'll ask you the same question I asked somebody else in this thread: how
» do you explain the beneficial effect on hair growth from finasteride and
» dutasteride? :-)

Those drugs reduce the effect of DHT.

Perhaps certain nutrients also reduce the effect of DHT.




Ahab is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
gutted

20.05.2012, 21:11

@ KO

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» » this can be explained by the distribution of type 2, it can be assumed
» » type2 is more prominent in the body and leads to a more systemic
» » introduction of dht into the blood stream hence inhibiting type 2 leads
» to
» » a more pronounced effect on the dht levels in the blood stream, which
» means
» » the sebaceous gland isnt hyperactive as much, THUS allows the
» body
» » to disinfect the infected cells.
»
»
» » Inhibiting type 1 probably doesnt result in a major decerease in serum
» dht
» » levels which is why it never helped in aiding the body in getting rid of
» » the infection in tha mk386 study. Also bear in mind IGF1 is also a
» » stimulator of the sebgland.
» »
» NOT TRUE. Serum DHT levels are reduced by MK386.
»
» http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/82/5/1373.short


this is taken from - regrowth com/hairloss-remedy/mk_386/mk_386.cfm

"MK-386 is a relatively new antiandrogen that has been shown to inhibit ONLY type 1 DHT. It inhibits circulating DHT by 20-30%. In combination with Proscar, it reduced DHT by an average of 89%, compared with 68% by Proscar alone!"

If that is true mk386 doesnt even touch circulating androgens!

This is taken from the study you linked to -

"Treatments were given once daily for 14 days, except in 1 panel in which MK-386 was administered 10 mg twice daily for comparison to 20 mg daily. Serum, sebum, and semen DHT concentrations and serum and sebum T concentrations were measured before and after treatment. "

14 days is hardly a good time frame to judge efficacy on hair growth!!




gutted is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
gutted

20.05.2012, 18:49
(edited by gutted, 20.05.2012, 19:05)

@ KO

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» » this can be explained by the distribution of type 2, it can be assumed
» » type2 is more prominent in the body and leads to a more systemic
» » introduction of dht into the blood stream hence inhibiting type 2 leads
» to
» » a more pronounced effect on the dht levels in the blood stream, which
» means
» » the sebaceous gland isnt hyperactive as much, THUS allows the
» body
» » to disinfect the infected cells.
»
»
» » Inhibiting type 1 probably doesnt result in a major decerease in serum
» dht
» » levels which is why it never helped in aiding the body in getting rid of
» » the infection in tha mk386 study. Also bear in mind IGF1 is also a
» » stimulator of the sebgland.
» »
» NOT TRUE. Serum DHT levels are reduced by MK386.
»
» http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/82/5/1373.short

Ok, but not to a level to help the body wipe the infection. - You also need to take into to account igf1/testosterone levels as these all stimulate the sebgland

According to my theory Hair miniturisation does not occur through androgens binding to DP AR.
It occurs because there is a chronic micro infection of the follcile/counterparts which the body is battling and which appears to fight off this infection with the help of fin, but

1) either somehwhere leaves behind damaged cells

OR

2)either these cells, during the regeneration stage in the hair cycle, the microinfection abruptly returns, preventing the regeneration of a thick hair.
(people who reportedley experience, mintuarised hair turning thicker are those people that have successfully wiped the chronic microinfection)

OR

3) the infection is not fully controlled, its still there in some cells, and is preventing full regeneration.

So basically what im trying to say is baldness is a chronic microinfection of the follcile/counterparts.

So if with fin/mk386, homestasis occurs in an indivdual, the body's androgen levels return to high levels, this in turn causes infection and means people experience the so called "mpb advancing" with the anagen hair cycle shortneing and subsequent mintuarisation. This is NOT fin losing effectiveness.

Similarly if homestasis is not achieved and dht levels stay controlled - fin wil work to grow hair because it lowers dht in the body alowing the body to fight the infection off.

Terminal to Vellus hairs are the result of those hair/counterpart cells shutting down production - similar to what happens in the body when cancer is detected.




gutted is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
gutted

20.05.2012, 18:25

@ KO

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» You're really going around in circles. Your case has been from the
» beginning, fin works by reducing DHT SYSTEMICALLY. So does MK386. Why does
» one grow hair and the other doesn't?

I dont see where i am going around in cirlces?

mk386 reduces the enzyme type 1 directly. BUT does not touch type 2.

This leaves enzyme type 2 in the body, which is more prominent and proably produces 2/3's of the bodies dht production. which is pumped into the blood stream/tissues - STILL stimulating the sebgland AR influencing the rise in scalp bacteria.

MK386 obviously did not result in a controlled, stabilised, serum/tissue dht level for it to indirectly help the bodies immune system wipe the infection.


You also need to take into account the bodies homestasis as this is the PRIMARY reason why fins loses effectiveness over time - fin helps indirectly by helping the immune system fight the microinfection that is going on in follcile.


Also with the mk386 study you need to realise igf1/testosterone is also a stimulator of the seb gland, this was NOT taken into account during the study as science is only looking at "dht binding to the dermal papilla AR causing minturisation", you are also thinking of it like this, which is why your not understanding my theory.

Im not talking about androgens binding to the dermal papilla AR here, according to me androgens binding to the Dermal papilla AR has nothing to do with baldness.




gutted is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
KO

20.05.2012, 18:09

@ gutted

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» this can be explained by the distribution of type 2, it can be assumed
» type2 is more prominent in the body and leads to a more systemic
» introduction of dht into the blood stream hence inhibiting type 2 leads to
» a more pronounced effect on the dht levels in the blood stream, which means
» the sebaceous gland isnt hyperactive as much, THUS allows the body
» to disinfect the infected cells.


» Inhibiting type 1 probably doesnt result in a major decerease in serum dht
» levels which is why it never helped in aiding the body in getting rid of
» the infection in tha mk386 study. Also bear in mind IGF1 is also a
» stimulator of the sebgland.
»
NOT TRUE. Serum DHT levels are reduced by MK386.

http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/82/5/1373.short




KO is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
KO

20.05.2012, 18:00

@ gutted

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

You're really going around in circles. Your case has been from the beginning, fin works by reducing DHT SYSTEMICALLY. So does MK386. Why does one grow hair and the other doesn't?




KO is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
gutted

20.05.2012, 16:11

@ roger_that

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» » Are you sure about this? I thought the sebgland was taken along with the
» » transplanted hair from donor to the bald site?
»
» OK, you might be right on that. I don't know if it is.
»
» » This can still be explained -
» »
» » Im not aware of the details of the hair cyle, but i did think i read
» that
» » it is the hair that regenerates the seb gland
» » during telogen/catagen??
» »
» » So if it is true that the hair,regenerates the seb gland and
» » blood supply it could be assumed the transplanted hair contains the
» » genetic material to regenerate the insensitive sebgland.
» »
» » But the genetical component of the AR sensitivity between the different
» » sites, can also be looked at again. All hair should contain the same
» » gentical material and behave the same, including AR sensitivity.
»
» Here is where you're wrong.
»
» Just because it's all hair from one person, doesn't mean it all has to
» behave the same.


»
» Sure, it all has all of the genes in the genetic compliment of that person,
» but the genes behave differently in different places. Location is very
» important when it comes to genetic expression. The same cell types can
» behave much differently in different regions of the body.
»
» There is plenty of precedent for this in the human being, including in the
» hair.
»
» Why do people first start developing gray hair in certain parts of their
» scalp, and not in others?

»
» For instance, many people start graying at the sideburns and temples, while
» the hair in other parts of the scalp remains colored for a much longer
» time. In many cases it never goes gray; some people in their 60s and 70s
» still have dark hair on top and gray at the temples.

I agree exression differs between sites. What i meant was hair producing genes are intact. If this was NOT the case transplanting human hair to a mouse would not have caused hair to grow terminal.
Remember stem cells are still present in human hair, and other differntiated hair cells.

Cells take on the charcteristics of thier nearby cells.
Grey hair is probably due to a mutation in undifferntiated cells(stem cells) sometime, in peoples lives, having a knock on effect on differntiated cells in the pathway. This is why theres a pattern.

But baldness is certainly not a mutational disease. That is for sure.

»
» According to your theory, all of a person's follicles have the same genes,
» and if they're going to turn gray at all, they would ALL have to turn gray,
» and all at the same rate, and there could never be a 70 year old with some
» gray hair and some hair of his original color.
»

No that is not the case, gray hair is a mutational disease. It is something that happens over time possibly through mutations. The pattern can easily be explained by nearby cells, taking on the genetic characteriscs of thier neighbour cells.
This should not be used as an analysis against baldness.

» But the truth is we know you can have a pattern of graying just like a
» pattern of balding.
»
»
» My point is that all a person's organs have the same genetics, but this
» genetics doesn't necessarily manifest exactly same throughout the body or
» even in one organ.

Yes i agree with you thier. Expression differs between different sites.




gutted is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
roger_that

MARYLAND,
20.05.2012, 15:43
(edited by roger_that, 20.05.2012, 15:58)

@ gutted

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» Are you sure about this? I thought the sebgland was taken along with the
» transplanted hair from donor to the bald site?

OK, you might be right on that. I don't know if it is.

» This can still be explained -
»
» Im not aware of the details of the hair cyle, but i did think i read that
» it is the hair that regenerates the seb gland
» during telogen/catagen??
»
» So if it is true that the hair,regenerates the seb gland and
» blood supply it could be assumed the transplanted hair contains the
» genetic material to regenerate the insensitive sebgland.
»
» But the genetical component of the AR sensitivity between the different
» sites, can also be looked at again. All hair should contain the same
» gentical material and behave the same, including AR sensitivity.

Here is where you're wrong.

Just because it's all hair from one person, doesn't mean it all has to behave the same.

Sure, it all has all of the genes in the genetic compliment of that person, but the genes behave differently in different places. Location is very important when it comes to genetic expression. The same cell types can behave much differently in different regions of the body.

There is plenty of precedent for this in humans, including in the hair.

Why do people first start developing gray hair in certain parts of their scalp, and not in others?

For instance, many people start graying at the sideburns and temples, while the hair in other parts of the scalp remains colored for a much longer time. In many cases it never goes gray; some people in their 60s and 70s still have dark or "salt and pepper" hair on top and gray at the temples.

According to your theory, all of a person's follicles have the same genes, and if they're going to turn gray at all, they would ALL have to turn gray, and all at the same rate, and there could never be a 70 year old with some gray hair and some hair of his original color.

But the truth is we know you can have a pattern of graying just like a pattern of balding.

Or, why does a dog's fur display patterns of colors across its body, with different areas of spots, etc.? According to your theory, it's all dog fur from the same dog, the follicles all have the same genes, and therefore all the dog's fur should manifest the same color across the dog's entire body.

My point is that all a person's organs have the same genetics, but these genetics aren't necessarily expressed in exactly the same wat throughout the body or even in one organ.




roger_that is located in MARYLAND and he is available to meet: YES
email hairsite@aol.com to arrange a meeting.


Post reply
gutted

20.05.2012, 15:20
(edited by gutted, 20.05.2012, 15:35)

@ roger_that

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» » theres no denying mpb has a genetic component to it. The genetic
» component
» » is possibly related to the androgen receptor sensitivity of the
» sebaceous
» » gland between the donor regions and the bald regions not the dermal
» papilla
» » AR sensitivity.
»
» OK, I follow what you're saying, but if you look at it logically, it
» doesn't make any sense. Why does transplanted hair grow in bald
» regions, then? When hair is transplanted from donor regions, sebaceous
» glands from the donor regions are not transplanted along with them.
The
» sebaceous glands in the bald regions remain the same. If you think it's
» the influence of DHT-sensitive sebaceous glands in the MPB-affected regions
» which causes MBP, and not DHT-sensitive dermal papillae, then transplanted
» hair shouldn't grow, because the same "bad" sebaceous glands would be
» present, influencing the follicles as you say.
»


Are you sure about this? I thought the sebgland was taken along with the transplanted hair from donor to the bald site?


This can still be explained -

Im not aware of the details of the hair cyle, but i did think i read that it is the hair that regenerates the seb gland
during telogen/catagen??

So if it is true that the hair,regenerates the seb gland and blood supply it could be assumed the transplanted hair contains the genetic material to regenerate the insensitive sebgland.

But the genetical component of the AR sensitivity between the different sites, can also be looked at again. All hair should contain the same gentical material and behave the same, including AR sensitivity.
The gentical component can be the concentration/distribution of the sebglands and between the donor site and the balding site, with higher distribution/concentration of those glands in the balding site than the donor site.

The reason why transplanted hairs are not affected when transplanted to bald scalp is because on bald scalps, the glands have all shut down production, they arent being infected anymore hence they are NOT spreading this infection to nearby cells.

The baldness pattern occurs in a similar fashion as to how bacteria/microbes cultured on a petri dish, grow.

» I think your theory is a real stretch, and violates Occam's Razor,
» which favors simpler, more obvious explanations over elaborate theories
» which require too many assumptions. Although conceivably there is
» something to your theory that sebaceous glands in balding areas are
» affected by DHT and have an influence on balding follicles, to assume
» they're the sole cause, or the primary cause, of MPB when obvious facts do
» not bear that out, is not good science.

Yes i understand i have no science to give you, just based on a past experience i had, and connecting some dots.




gutted is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
gutted

20.05.2012, 15:00

@ KO

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» This makes literally no sense. The p-herm people have no MPB and smaller
» prostates, but according to you that is because other hormones "modulate"
» hair growth?
»

I dont understand what doesnt make sense?

p-herm people dont develop mpb because they have limited, "appropiate or stable/controlled" levels of testosterone and low dht to stimulate hair growth and prevent baldness indirectly.
(remember according my theory it is excess,high levels of either dht/5alpha type1 or 2 and igf1 that causes hyperactivity of the sebaceous gland by binding to its AR having the knock on effect of overgrowing scalp bacteria probably through the release of sebum which causes micro-infection of either the folcilular cells and/or sebgland)


» Then why aren't these other hormones modulating hair growth in balding
» men???
»
What i mean here is - there may be other hormones that could modulate hair growth in humans, mens hairs are stimulated by test/dht and womens by estrogen, where as women also contain dht too? Its not clearley established.

Once hair cells/sebaceous gland mitochondria shut down, it needs to be signalled for activation for hair to occur - this is a safety mechanism after all the infections and subsequent reinfections of the cells. Simply stimulating them with test/dht is not enough to signal activation.
Im theorising either the sebaceous gland cells are the ones that shut down either due to the safety mechanism or damage, without this gland hair remains vellus.
Vellus hairs do not contain a sebgland.

»
» But then you say that systemic levels of DHT are what's responsible for
» MPB.
»
» But when we point out that reducing systemic levels of DHT via MK386 does
» nothing for MPB, you point out that 5AR-2 has not been reduced, and
» something is going on in the sebaceous glands. So I don't get what you're
» saying,

»

following text -

"DHT which is produced in the prostate, various adrenal glands, and the scalp is produced from testosterone by two 5-alpha reductase isoenzymes, called Type I and Type II.
Type I 5AR is much more prominent in the scalp than Type II. However, immunostaining techniques reveal that Type I is abundant in sebaceous glands, while significant Type II is present in the dermal papilla itself. "

With mk386 it only inhibited type 1 - it doesnt take into account the systemic introduction of igf-1, dht,testosterone, all of which stimulate the secretion of the seb gland i.e leading to an overgrowth of bacteria and subsequent infection BUT dht is the more potent stimulator, enough to cause infection at uncontrolled levels, so yes systemic levels of dht/igf1 are a key factor - BUT my point is not to reduce DHT/testosterone/igf1/5alphatype1 or 2. My point is controlling dht levels regardless of where it is controlled allows the body to disinfect, infected cells.

»according to you is 5AR-2 an important component in the MPB process
» or not?

5alpha reductase type 1 and type 2 are not important in my thoery, and again dht and testosterone are not important, what IS important is helping the body [b]stabilise
the sebaceous gland/scalp bacteria levels to prevent infection - THIS is what reducing DHT via blocking 5 alpha type1 and/or 2 DO via both tissue/systemic distribution of dht. Lowering dht allows the body to disinfect infected hair and/or sebgland cells which regenerate without infection - this is why some people, on fin, experience a thicker hair after being on it for sometime (perhaps 1 hair cyle may be enough).

»If it is not an important component, then why d0 5AR1 inhibitors
» not help MPB but 5AR2 inhibitors do?[/b]

this can be explained by the distribution of type 2, it can be assumed type2 is more prominent in the body and leads to a more systemic introduction of dht into the blood stream hence inhibiting type 2 leads to a more pronounced effect on the dht levels in the blood stream, which means the sebaceous gland isnt hyperactive as much, THUS allows the body to disinfect the infected cells.
Inhibiting type 1 probably doesnt result in a major decerease in serum dht levels which is why it never helped in aiding the body in getting rid of the infection in tha mk386 study. Also bear in mind IGF1 is also a stimulator of the sebgland.

»
» Also do you realize that the 5AR-2 isozyme is localized to the hair
» follicle and not the sebaceous gland?

yes i know type 2 can be found in the dermal papilla, but this is not the problem. This, justinfluences the problem.
According to my theory, DHT binding to the AR causing miniturisation is flawed, i know...i sound ignorant.


»
» Are you familiar with any of the literature at all?

im familliar with a few abstracts.




gutted is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
roger_that

MARYLAND,
20.05.2012, 14:19
(edited by roger_that, 20.05.2012, 14:39)

@ gutted

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» theres no denying mpb has a genetic component to it. The genetic component
» is possibly related to the androgen receptor sensitivity of the sebaceous
» gland between the donor regions and the bald regions not the dermal papilla
» AR sensitivity.

OK, I follow what you're saying, but if you look at it logically, it doesn't make any sense. Why does transplanted hair grow in bald regions, then? When hair is transplanted from donor regions, sebaceous glands from the donor regions are not transplanted along with them. The sebaceous glands in the bald regions remain the same. If you think it's the influence of DHT-sensitive sebaceous glands in the MPB-affected regions which causes MBP, and not DHT-sensitive dermal papillae, then transplanted hair shouldn't grow, because the same "bad" sebaceous glands would be present, influencing the follicles as you say.

I think your theory is a real stretch, and violates Occam's Razor, which favors simpler, more obvious explanations over elaborate theories which require too many assumptions. Although conceivably there is something to your theory that sebaceous glands in balding areas are affected by DHT and have an influence on balding follicles, to assume they're the sole cause, or the primary cause, of MPB when obvious facts do not bear that out, is not good science.




roger_that is located in MARYLAND and he is available to meet: YES
email hairsite@aol.com to arrange a meeting.


Post reply
KO

20.05.2012, 04:53

@ gutted

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

This makes literally no sense. The p-herm people have no MPB and smaller prostates, but according to you that is because other hormones "modulate" hair growth?

Then why aren't these other hormones modulating hair growth in balding men???


But then you say that systemic levels of DHT are what's responsible for MPB.

But when we point out that reducing systemic levels of DHT via MK386 does nothing for MPB, you point out that 5AR-2 has not been reduced, and something is going on in the sebaceous glands. So I don't get what you're saying, according to you is 5AR-2 an important component in the MPB process or not? If it is not an important component, then why d0 5AR1 inhibitors not help MPB but 5AR2 inhibitors do?


Also do you realize that the 5AR-2 isozyme is localized to the hair follicle and not the sebaceous gland?

Are you familiar with any of the literature at all?




KO is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
gutted

20.05.2012, 02:39

@ KO

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» » reducing dht via blocking 5alpha reductase causes upregulation of other
» » hormones, this is what causes more damage than good, it also means AR is
» » upregulated in cells to maintain homeostasis.
» » 5 alpha reductase type 2 (it doesnt matter where in the body it is
» located)
» » is still present in those people which is still producing dht, pathogens
» » are still infecting, it would make sense hairs wont be growing with
» MK386.
»
» Your argument before was - fin works because DHT is reduced.

yes that is what i am saying, it reduces dht, and has the knock on effects on scalp bacteria as the bacterial levels are sustained at "appropiate levels", allowing the immune system to remove the infection. This is what i mean by fin helping indirectly to "grow hair"

Fin doesnt cause the actual hair growth, the body is free to grow hair, because follciles/counterparts are not infected anymore

BUT for those vellus/dormant hairs that have shut down production, removing the infection may not be enough to restart growth, it takes something else.


Fin is a temporary measure, over time some people start to lose hair because homeostasis of andorgens and/or AR begins to take its course over 5/10 years (fin probably doesnt lose effectiveness), which eventually causes infection, dis-infection and reinfection, also bear in mind not only dht modulates the sebaceous gland but also other factors, like igf1 (this is what is percieved as the anagen hair cycle shortening again i.e the immune system progressiveley having to remove the infection).

in some people homeostasis can take place in 1 year which is why some people "think" fin is not working for them, when in actual fact it never trueley addressed the problem, rather probaly, accellerated the problem! For these people - a very very minor dose is required for fin to indirectly work for them and to delay the bodies homestasis.

its possible that thinning hairs are hairs that have regenerated with partial infection present. The body was not able to fully rid the infection.


» Now that MK386
» ALSO reduces DHT, but doesn't help with hair growth...you're changing
» tracks. Your argument about "homeostasis" would also happen with fin!

I explained mk386 didnt cause any hair growth because the direct problem (scalp bacteria) was never addressed.
There was still dht being produced by 5 alpha reductase type 2 elsewhere in the body, serum dht/igf1 also probably targets the sebaceous gland causing hyperactivity and the overgrowth and infection of the follcile/counterparts.

The sebaceous gland does not differentiate between dht produced by 5alpha type 1 or type 2.




gutted is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
Bryan

20.05.2012, 02:19

@ gutted

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» PGD2 stops/prevents hair follciles from growing, androgens have an
» indirect influence on the stoppage but do not stop hair from
» growing.
»
» this is why test tube studies are flawed...and researchers need to think
» outside the box, than rely on outdated science :)
»
» If this was the case the vellus to terminal hair that i regrew should have
» undergone its genetically detrmined pre prgrammed minituarisation 3 years
» ago, however its still here, growing. If i took a picture and showed you,
» you will think it looks weird. My current hairline is half an inch above
» the single, regrown terminal hair.
» Also there a random spontaneous regrowth occuring on nw7 scalps,
» identifying the trigger of this is what im looking for and i think
» based on my experience i know what the key factor is. i will be engaging in
» experiments of my own, i will keep you you updated if intrested.

I haven't bothered to follow the recent material on PGD2, but I do know that sometimes, single hair follicles can be found growing that don't have the usual sensitivity to androgens; it's even possible that such rare follicles can be found among "normal" balding follicles, or even where those other follicles used to be, but then disappeared!!

Why that happens occasionally, I don't think anybody knows; it's just something odd that happens with the genetics of a given hair follicle.




Bryan is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
KO

20.05.2012, 01:31

@ gutted

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» reducing dht via blocking 5alpha reductase causes upregulation of other
» hormones, this is what causes more damage than good, it also means AR is
» upregulated in cells to maintain homeostasis.
» 5 alpha reductase type 2 (it doesnt matter where in the body it is located)
» is still present in those people which is still producing dht, pathogens
» are still infecting, it would make sense hairs wont be growing with MK386.

Your argument before was - fin works because DHT is reduced. Now that MK386 ALSO reduces DHT, but doesn't help with hair growth...you're changing tracks. Your argument about "homeostasis" would also happen with fin!




KO is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
KO

20.05.2012, 01:29

@ gutted

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

You really need to read and consider the evidence that's been put in front of you about this, you're just brushing off everything Bryan and I have written about it with the argument "I disagree I think it's this......".




KO is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
gutted

20.05.2012, 00:56

@ Bryan

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» » well im not saying its scientific fact i do state its my own theory.:-)
» »
» »
» » If the sebaceous gland had pathogens living within it, they would be
» » transported along with the dissected gland into the test tube.
» »
» » But the immune system will not have been present in the test tube so
» could
» » not have stopped the hair cells from growing, perhaps certian immune
» cells
» » were in the gland already, but who knows.
» » Test tube studies are flawed.
»
» Androgens _do_ stop scalp hair follicles from growing, and they do it both
» in vitro and in vivo. Furthermore, antiandrogens stop that
» effect from happening. This is ALL familiar stuff, and has been repeated
» ENDLESSELY! :-)

PGD2 stops/prevents hair follciles from growing, androgens have an indirect influence on the stoppage but do not stop hair from growing.

this is why test tube studies are flawed...and researchers need to think outside the box, than rely on outdated science :)

If this was the case the vellus to terminal hair that i regrew should have undergone its genetically detrmined pre prgrammed minituarisation 3 years ago, however its still here, growing. If i took a picture and showed you, you will think it looks weird. My current hairline is half an inch above the single, regrown terminal hair.
Also there a random spontaneous regrowth occuring on nw7 scalps, identifying the trigger of this is what im looking for and i think based on my experience i know what the key factor is. i will be engaging in experiments of my own, i will keep you you updated if intrested.




gutted is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
Bryan

20.05.2012, 00:31

@ gutted

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» well im not saying its scientific fact i do state its my own theory.:-)
»
»
» If the sebaceous gland had pathogens living within it, they would be
» transported along with the dissected gland into the test tube.
»
» But the immune system will not have been present in the test tube so could
» not have stopped the hair cells from growing, perhaps certian immune cells
» were in the gland already, but who knows.
» Test tube studies are flawed.

Androgens _do_ stop scalp hair follicles from growing, and they do it both in vitro and in vivo. Furthermore, antiandrogens stop that effect from happening. This is ALL familiar stuff, and has been repeated ENDLESSELY! :-)




Bryan is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
gutted

20.05.2012, 00:10

@ Bryan

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» » » Really? How do you explain the rich, luxurious scalp hair
» growth
» » » shown by individuals who have CAIS (Complete Androgen Insensitivity
» » » Syndrome)?? Those people have mutations in their androgen receptors,
» » » and androgens have ZERO effects on their bodies.
» »
» »
» » they are probably modulated by other hormones?
» »
» » the fact that they are insensitive to androgens means their sebaceous
» gland
» » is not hyperactive as much, which does not lead on to the other knock on
» » effects that could have ensued.
»
» How do you explain the fact that MK386 (a specific 5a-reductase type 1
» inhibitor) had no effect on hair growth in either humans or stumptailed
» macaques? The type of 5a-reductase in sebaceous glands is indeed type 1,
» and if there were any truth to your "theory", one would expect an effect by
» MK386. Instead, there's a clear and obvious effect only with
» finasteride, which is a specific type 2 inhibitor. How do
» you explain that??

the sebaceous gland isnt only stimulated by dht, also by other growth factors, so can have influence on this gland.

reducing dht via blocking 5alpha reductase causes upregulation of other hormones, this is what causes more damage than good, it also means AR is upregulated in cells to maintain homeostasis.
5 alpha reductase type 2 (it doesnt matter where in the body it is located) is still present in those people which is still producing dht, pathogens are still infecting, it would make sense hairs wont be growing with MK386.




gutted is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
gutted

19.05.2012, 23:59

@ Bryan

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» » » I'm referring to numerous studies which showed that giving androgens
» to
» » » human scalp hair follicles suppresses their growth.
» »
» » i really cant explain this one, all i can say is the bodies activity
» cant
» » be replicated in a test tube, and test tube studies should be
» overlooked.
» »
» » Was the sebaceous gland present with the hairs in the test tube?
»
» I honestly don't know (or remember) if they left the sebaceous glands
» intact in those studies.
»
» In any event, it's common knowledge that androgens have a direct
» negative effect on human scalp hair follicles (and some other primate hair
» follicles, too, like those of stumptailed macaques). I think it's all well
» and good that you've formulated this "theory" about hairloss being caused
» by sebum, but you've got to face facts: the general idea that androgens
» are BAD for scalp hair and damage them DIRECTLY by suppressing their growth
» is perfectly obvious and profoundly well-known to doctors and scientists.
» Contradicting that with another "theory" of what causes hairloss may be
» fine for after-dinner conversation, but it shouldn't be repeated with a
» straight face on forums like this! :-)

well im not saying its scientific fact i do state its my own theory.:-)


If the sebaceous gland had pathogens living within it, they would be transported along with the dissected gland into the test tube.

But the immune system will not have been present in the test tube so could not have stopped the hair cells from growing, perhaps certian immune cells were in the gland already, but who knows.
Test tube studies are flawed.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22134564




gutted is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
Bryan

19.05.2012, 23:51

@ gutted

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» » Really? How do you explain the rich, luxurious scalp hair growth
» » shown by individuals who have CAIS (Complete Androgen Insensitivity
» » Syndrome)?? Those people have mutations in their androgen receptors,
» » and androgens have ZERO effects on their bodies.
»
»
» they are probably modulated by other hormones?
»
» the fact that they are insensitive to androgens means their sebaceous gland
» is not hyperactive as much, which does not lead on to the other knock on
» effects that could have ensued.

How do you explain the fact that MK386 (a specific 5a-reductase type 1 inhibitor) had no effect on hair growth in either humans or stumptailed macaques? The type of 5a-reductase in sebaceous glands is indeed type 1, and if there were any truth to your "theory", one would expect an effect by MK386. Instead, there's a clear and obvious effect only with finasteride, which is a specific type 2 inhibitor. How do you explain that??




Bryan is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
Bryan

19.05.2012, 23:40

@ gutted

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» » I'm referring to numerous studies which showed that giving androgens to
» » human scalp hair follicles suppresses their growth.
»
» i really cant explain this one, all i can say is the bodies activity cant
» be replicated in a test tube, and test tube studies should be overlooked.
»
» Was the sebaceous gland present with the hairs in the test tube?

I honestly don't know (or remember) if they left the sebaceous glands intact in those studies.

In any event, it's common knowledge that androgens have a direct negative effect on human scalp hair follicles (and some other primate hair follicles, too, like those of stumptailed macaques). I think it's all well and good that you've formulated this "theory" about hairloss being caused by sebum, but you've got to face facts: the general idea that androgens are BAD for scalp hair and damage them DIRECTLY by suppressing their growth is perfectly obvious and profoundly well-known to doctors and scientists. Contradicting that with another "theory" of what causes hairloss may be fine for after-dinner conversation, but it shouldn't be repeated with a straight face on forums like this! :-)




Bryan is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
gutted

19.05.2012, 23:35

@ Bryan

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» » Basically fin/dut indirectly prevents the infection (and progressive re-
» » inefection over time) of the sebaceous cells and/or follicular cells. It
» is
» » this ongoing micro infection and micro re-infection that causes the hair
» » cycle to shed prematureley, not dht, dht and androgens are needed for
» hair
» » growth.
»
» Really? How do you explain the rich, luxurious scalp hair growth
» shown by individuals who have CAIS (Complete Androgen Insensitivity
» Syndrome)?? Those people have mutations in their androgen receptors, and
» androgens have ZERO effects on their bodies.


they are probably modulated by other hormones?

the fact that they are insensitive to androgens means their sebaceous gland is not hyperactive as much, which does not lead on to the other knock on effects that could have ensued.




gutted is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
Bryan

19.05.2012, 23:22

@ gutted

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» Basically fin/dut indirectly prevents the infection (and progressive re-
» inefection over time) of the sebaceous cells and/or follicular cells. It is
» this ongoing micro infection and micro re-infection that causes the hair
» cycle to shed prematureley, not dht, dht and androgens are needed for hair
» growth.

Really? How do you explain the rich, luxurious scalp hair growth shown by individuals who have CAIS (Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome)?? Those people have mutations in their androgen receptors, and androgens have ZERO effects on their bodies.




Bryan is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
gutted

19.05.2012, 23:14

@ Bryan

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» » i presume this is the study your referring to? -
» » http://www.fasebj.org/content/16/14/1967.full.pdf
»
» I'm referring to numerous studies which showed that giving androgens to
» human scalp hair follicles suppresses their growth.

i really cant explain this one, all i can say is the bodies activity cant be replicated in a test tube, and test tube studies should be overlooked.

Was the sebaceous gland present with the hairs in the test tube?




gutted is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
gutted

19.05.2012, 23:11

@ KO

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» »
» » I have no evidence to give you, just my own hypothesis, and
» » observations/experience.
» » Bear in mind that dht binding to the androgen receptors of the dermal
» » papilla are not part of this theory and is in my opinion flawed.
» »
»
» Why do you think it is flawed in the first place?

because it does not make sense based on my personal experience, if my hair follcile was preprogrammed to minituarise, the single hair that i regrew on my hairline (well below my original hairline) 3 years ago should not be here today. It should have minituarised but this isnt the case, its still thick.



»
»
» »
» » Androgenetic alopecia and microinflammation
» » Yann F. Mahé,PhD, Jean-François Michelet,MSc, Nelly Billoni, MSc,
» Françoise
» » Jarrousse, BTS , Bruno Buan, BTS , Stephane Commo, BTS, Didier
» » Saint-Léger,PhD and Bruno A. Bernard,PhD
» »
» » Fin/dut indirectly helps the body calm those pathogens down via
» the
» » modulation of the sebaceous gland and hence the immune system does not
» come
» » into play and damage either those follicular cells or the
» sebaceous
» » gland cells, (which is needed for the proper functioning of the hair,
» » vellus hair has no sebaceous gland)
» »
»
» You realize that in MPB, white blood cells surround the HF bulge right? So
» your idea that the immune system doesn't respond is not true.
»
im not aware of all details but it stands to reason, that, because of the infection white blood cells will indeed surround the hair follcile bulge cells
I didnt say the immune system doesnt respond, it does respond, and that is what causes hair to shed prematureley i.e shorten the anagen phase as the medical literature puts it.

»
» » Basically fin/dut indirectly prevents the infection (and progressive re-
» » inefection over time) of the sebaceous cells and/or follicular cells. It
» is
» » this ongoing micro infection and micro re-infection that causes the hair
» » cycle to shed prematureley, not dht, dht and androgens are needed for
» hair
» » growth.
»
» This paragraph doesn't make sense. Please state your point more clearly.
»

Fin/dut lowers dht to acceptable levels, this stops the sebaceous gland overproducing, what ever it is feeding the pathogens in the scalp causing them to overgrow, hence they remain at acceptable levels.
It is the ongoing micro-infection of the hair follcicullar cells (and its counterparts) that the bodies immune system is addressing (disinfecting), this is why growth of those cells stop prematureley, not by dht but by the immune system.




» »
» » An mpb sufferer can have all the androgens in this world in there
» » follicles, but if they took a broad spectrum antibiotic they will not go
» » bald with all the androgens in this world in thier follciles.
»
»

I have no basis but you can take a look at -> http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5753713/description.html


Im not saying this is all fact, just a theory.

» Uh......based on what?




gutted is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
Bryan

19.05.2012, 23:08

@ gutted

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» i presume this is the study your referring to? -
» http://www.fasebj.org/content/16/14/1967.full.pdf

I'm referring to numerous studies which showed that giving androgens to human scalp hair follicles suppresses their growth.




Bryan is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
gutted

19.05.2012, 22:46

@ Bryan

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» » I have no evidence to give you, just my own hypothesis, and
» » observations/experience.
» » Bear in mind that dht binding to the androgen receptors of the dermal
» » papilla are not part of this theory and is in my opinion flawed.
»
» How do you explain the fact that androgens (including DHT) also suppress
» the growth of scalp hair follicles when they're applied to those hair
» follicles in vitro, not just in vivo?


i presume this is the study your referring to? -
http://www.fasebj.org/content/16/14/1967.full.pdf




gutted is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
KO

19.05.2012, 22:42

@ gutted

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

»
» I have no evidence to give you, just my own hypothesis, and
» observations/experience.
» Bear in mind that dht binding to the androgen receptors of the dermal
» papilla are not part of this theory and is in my opinion flawed.
»

Why do you think it is flawed in the first place?


»
» Androgenetic alopecia and microinflammation
» Yann F. Mahé,PhD, Jean-François Michelet,MSc, Nelly Billoni, MSc, Françoise
» Jarrousse, BTS , Bruno Buan, BTS , Stephane Commo, BTS, Didier
» Saint-Léger,PhD and Bruno A. Bernard,PhD
»
» Fin/dut indirectly helps the body calm those pathogens down via the
» modulation of the sebaceous gland and hence the immune system does not come
» into play and damage either those follicular cells or the sebaceous
» gland cells, (which is needed for the proper functioning of the hair,
» vellus hair has no sebaceous gland)
»

You realize that in MPB, white blood cells surround the HF bulge right? So your idea that the immune system doesn't respond is not true.


» Basically fin/dut indirectly prevents the infection (and progressive re-
» inefection over time) of the sebaceous cells and/or follicular cells. It is
» this ongoing micro infection and micro re-infection that causes the hair
» cycle to shed prematureley, not dht, dht and androgens are needed for hair
» growth.

This paragraph doesn't make sense. Please state your point more clearly.

»
» An mpb sufferer can have all the androgens in this world in there
» follicles, but if they took a broad spectrum antibiotic they will not go
» bald with all the androgens in this world in thier follciles.


Uh......based on what?




KO is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
Bryan

19.05.2012, 22:15

@ appleguy

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» My scalp creates excessive amounts of sebum which was causing me
» no end of hairloss.

Really? How do you know that sebum was causing you "no end of hairloss"?




Bryan is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
Bryan

19.05.2012, 22:11

@ gutted

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» I have no evidence to give you, just my own hypothesis, and
» observations/experience.
» Bear in mind that dht binding to the androgen receptors of the dermal
» papilla are not part of this theory and is in my opinion flawed.

How do you explain the fact that androgens (including DHT) also suppress the growth of scalp hair follicles when they're applied to those hair follicles in vitro, not just in vivo?




Bryan is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


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