Hair Loss Forum - Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

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15.05.2012, 21:49
 

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown (Hair Multiplication & Stem Cells Treatment)

Poll - requested by Boyintown.

Answer simple YES or NO to each of the questions below.

Boyintown will explain the reason for the poll.

POLL QUESTION:

Do you have moderate to severe hair loss and/or hair thinning,and also,

Poll Vote
 1. Acne?
16% (4) Yes
84% (21) No
  25 voters have answered this question.
 2. Oily hair?
60% (15) Yes
40% (10) No
  25 voters have answered this question.
 3. Dry or red eyes?
28% (7) Yes
72% (18) No
  25 voters have answered this question.
 4. You Never get real sick?
72% (18) Yes
28% (7) No
  25 voters have answered this question.

  Please Login to vote poll






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Post reply
Ahab

15.05.2012, 21:58

@ HairSite

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» Poll - requested by Boyintown.
»
» Answer simple YES or NO to each of the questions below.
»
» Boyintown will explain the reason for the poll.
»
» POLL QUESTION:
»
» Do you have moderate to severe hair loss and/or hair thinning,and also,

"Do you never get real sick" is a stupid question. Everyone gets real sick at least once in a while.

Maybe he means, "Do you almost never get real sick."




Ahab is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
Boyinhtown

Houston, TX,
17.05.2012, 05:08

@ HairSite

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

I want to thank everyone who participated in my poll.

Now the reasoning behind my poll. I have always noticed
that men with baldness also usually have absolutel no acne (as I do)
and general, thinning of body/pubic hair... also many times they
rarely get sick.. also sometimes they can have red or dry eyes lacking
lubrication...

All these sypmtoms go together... they are interconnected. Now if men are loosing and also getting grey hair all over their body as I am and don't have an oily scalp and no acne.. well that shows that our sebum production and thus prostaglandin production is messed up and is the reason for our hair loss.

DHT doesn't cause hair loss and I will say that again. Your hair actually need DHT to grow. My brother who is 2 years older than me is 30 and he has a full head of hair even though my father and my grandfather have severe hair thinning and baldness...

Yet his face looks like he just slathered butter all over it.
SEBUM ALSO DOESN'T CAUSE HAIRLOSS.....I can't believe some of the things I hear on here about how somehow sebum clogs the pore and thus that causes hair loss. Sebum actually PROTECTS the scalp and hair from damage and is a natural antibacterial substance produced by the body.

It has many necessary benefits so lets stop saying stuff that doesn't make sense.

People without proper sebum production also often times get dry or red eyes.

The key prostaglandin here that is related to hair growth is PGE1. It has been talked a lot about. It balances the bad prostaglandin, PGE2.

Our skin contains mast cells that produce prostaglandin for which they need gamma-linolenic acid or GLA which is an essential fatty acid. Thus topical gla has shown to regrow hair and I am applying it on my scalp to see how things go.

As the Pennsylvania researcher Cortaseleris or however his name is spelled came out with the news a few months ago, that bald scalp region had higher PGd2 that correlates with the idea of bad and good prostaglandins out of balance.

See, PGD2 is the precursor to Arachidonic Acid, which is necessary for muscle growth but in abnormal amounts can be toxic and cause inflammation.

This website explains the reason GLA is needed helps. And why we have high amoutns of Arachidonic Acid in our bodies (scalp as well )

PGd2 is a metabolic product of the Omega 6 essential fatty acid oils...
It has its requirements but in excess causes hair loss, as proven by Cortasleris's research.

So my solution to this is topical Borage Oil and taking it orally as well since Borage Oil has a much higher concentration of GLA than Primrose Evening Oil.

http://www.evening-primrose-oil.com/gla.html

On the other side of the equation is the Omega-6 family, which includes Linoleic Acid, Arachidonic Acid, and Gamma Linolenic Acid. The average North American consumes a high amount of Linoleic Acid in processed foods, margarine, and vegetable oils. As well, the typical North American diet contains a lot of Arachidonic Acid in meat, eggs, and some fish.

On the surface it would therefore seem as if most North Americans get enough Omega-6 and should focus on supplementing with Omega-3. However, the real story is a little more complex.

There are two complicating factors:

1. The body often has difficulty utilizing Linoleic Acid; and

2. Excess Arachidonic Acid actually causes ill effects.


The difficulty with Linoleic Acid

Over the last 30 years, researchers have found that many people have difficulty utilizing Omega-6 found in the form of Linoleic Acid due an impairment in a critical enzyme - Delta-6-Desaturase, or "D6D". The D6D enzyme is essential for converting Linoleic Acid into hormone-like compounds called eicosanoids, which are essential for cellular function on a minute-to-minute basis.

D6D function is impaired in many people partially due to the excessively high consumption of Linoleic Acid and partially due to other lifestyle factors such as smoking, drinking alcohol, stress, vitamin deficiencies, and high levels of saturated fat and trans-fatty acids in the diet. Some disease states, such as diabetes, are also associated with impaired D6D function.

If a person consumes lots of Omega-6 as Linoleic Acid, but the activity of the D6D enzyme is impaired, then the body is not able to use the Omega-6 it's getting to produce those beneficial eicosanoids.

The ill effects of excess Arachidonic Acid

In the meantime researchers have also discovered that the body uses Arachidonic Acid to produce a class of eicosanoids that are strongly proinflammatory, constrict our blood vessels, and increase the possibility of blood clotting. These compounds are very useful when you accidently cut your skin while peeling potatoes - without them, you would bleed to death. But once you have an excessive amount of these eicosanoids, the blood can clot in places you don't really want it to - for example the coronary artery. In other words, it can cause heart attacks. We are literally dying from the effects of excess Arachidonic Acid.

The GLA Solution

So… what can a person do to address these difficulties? The answer lies in the third source of Omega-6 - Gamma Linolenic Acid, or "GLA". GLA, found in Borage Oil, Evening Primrose Oil, and Black Currant Oil, does not require that impaired D6D enzyme for breakdown by the body. And, it produces a class of eicosanoids that are highly anti-inflammatory, dilate blood vessels, and reduce blood clotting. These effects are useful for the treatment and prevention of a wide range of diseases:

The anti-inflammatory effects are useful for the prevention and treatment of arthritis, allergies, and skin conditions such as eczema and psoriasis;
The dilation of blood vessels helps prevent high blood pressure; and
Reduced blood clotting helps prevent heart attacks and other associated cardiovascular diseases such as strokes.





Boyinhtown is located in HOUSTON, TX and he is available to meet: YES
email hairsite@aol.com to arrange a meeting.


Post reply
Iron Man

17.05.2012, 20:45

@ Boyinhtown

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» I want to thank everyone who participated in my poll.
»
» Now the reasoning behind my poll. I have always noticed
» that men with baldness also usually have absolutel no acne (as I do)
» and general, thinning of body/pubic hair... also many times they
» rarely get sick.. also sometimes they can have red or dry eyes lacking
» lubrication...
»
» All these sypmtoms go together... they are interconnected. Now if men are
» loosing and also getting grey hair all over their body as I am and don't
» have an oily scalp and no acne.. well that shows that our sebum production
» and thus prostaglandin production is messed up and is the reason for our
» hair loss.
»
» DHT doesn't cause hair loss and I will say that again. Your hair actually
» need DHT to grow. My brother who is 2 years older than me is 30 and he has
» a full head of hair even though my father and my grandfather have severe
» hair thinning and baldness...
»
» Yet his face looks like he just slathered butter all over it.
» SEBUM ALSO DOESN'T CAUSE HAIRLOSS.....I can't believe some of the things I
» hear on here about how somehow sebum clogs the pore and thus that causes
» hair loss. Sebum actually PROTECTS the scalp and hair from damage and is a
» natural antibacterial substance produced by the body.
»
» It has many necessary benefits so lets stop saying stuff that doesn't make
» sense.
»
» People without proper sebum production also often times get dry or red
» eyes.
»
» The key prostaglandin here that is related to hair growth is PGE1. It has
» been talked a lot about. It balances the bad prostaglandin, PGE2.
»
» Our skin contains mast cells that produce prostaglandin for which they need
» gamma-linolenic acid or GLA which is an essential fatty acid. Thus topical
» gla has shown to regrow hair and I am applying it on my scalp to see how
» things go.
»
» As the Pennsylvania researcher Cortaseleris or however his name is spelled
» came out with the news a few months ago, that bald scalp region had higher
» PGd2 that correlates with the idea of bad and good prostaglandins out of
» balance.
»
» See, PGD2 is the precursor to Arachidonic Acid, which is necessary for
» muscle growth but in abnormal amounts can be toxic and cause inflammation.
»
» This website explains the reason GLA is needed helps. And why we have high
» amoutns of Arachidonic Acid in our bodies (scalp as well )
»
» PGd2 is a metabolic product of the Omega 6 essential fatty acid oils...
» It has its requirements but in excess causes hair loss, as proven by
» Cortasleris's research.
»
» So my solution to this is topical Borage Oil and taking it orally as well
» since Borage Oil has a much higher concentration of GLA than Primrose
» Evening Oil.
»
» http://www.evening-primrose-oil.com/gla.html
»
» On the other side of the equation is the Omega-6 family, which includes
» Linoleic Acid, Arachidonic Acid, and Gamma Linolenic Acid. The average
» North American consumes a high amount of Linoleic Acid in processed foods,
» margarine, and vegetable oils. As well, the typical North American diet
» contains a lot of Arachidonic Acid in meat, eggs, and some fish.
»
» On the surface it would therefore seem as if most North Americans get
» enough Omega-6 and should focus on supplementing with Omega-3. However, the
» real story is a little more complex.
»
» There are two complicating factors:
»
» 1. The body often has difficulty utilizing Linoleic Acid; and
»
» 2. Excess Arachidonic Acid actually causes ill effects.
»
»
» The difficulty with Linoleic Acid
»
» Over the last 30 years, researchers have found that many people have
» difficulty utilizing Omega-6 found in the form of Linoleic Acid due an
» impairment in a critical enzyme - Delta-6-Desaturase, or "D6D". The D6D
» enzyme is essential for converting Linoleic Acid into hormone-like
» compounds called eicosanoids, which are essential for cellular function on
» a minute-to-minute basis.
»
» D6D function is impaired in many people partially due to the excessively
» high consumption of Linoleic Acid and partially due to other lifestyle
» factors such as smoking, drinking alcohol, stress, vitamin deficiencies,
» and high levels of saturated fat and trans-fatty acids in the diet. Some
» disease states, such as diabetes, are also associated with impaired D6D
» function.
»
» If a person consumes lots of Omega-6 as Linoleic Acid, but the activity of
» the D6D enzyme is impaired, then the body is not able to use the Omega-6
» it's getting to produce those beneficial eicosanoids.
»
» The ill effects of excess Arachidonic Acid
»
» In the meantime researchers have also discovered that the body uses
» Arachidonic Acid to produce a class of eicosanoids that are strongly
» proinflammatory, constrict our blood vessels, and increase the possibility
» of blood clotting. These compounds are very useful when you accidently cut
» your skin while peeling potatoes - without them, you would bleed to death.
» But once you have an excessive amount of these eicosanoids, the blood can
» clot in places you don't really want it to - for example the coronary
» artery. In other words, it can cause heart attacks. We are literally dying
» from the effects of excess Arachidonic Acid.
»
» The GLA Solution
»
» So… what can a person do to address these difficulties? The answer lies in
» the third source of Omega-6 - Gamma Linolenic Acid, or "GLA". GLA, found in
» Borage Oil, Evening Primrose Oil, and Black Currant Oil, does not require
» that impaired D6D enzyme for breakdown by the body. And, it produces a
» class of eicosanoids that are highly anti-inflammatory, dilate blood
» vessels, and reduce blood clotting. These effects are useful for the
» treatment and prevention of a wide range of diseases:
»
» The anti-inflammatory effects are useful for the prevention and treatment
» of arthritis, allergies, and skin conditions such as eczema and psoriasis;
»
» The dilation of blood vessels helps prevent high blood pressure; and
» Reduced blood clotting helps prevent heart attacks and other associated
» cardiovascular diseases such as strokes.



so what exactly are you suggesting? Changing diet really? I know people whose health is terrible but they still have 100% of their hair...




Iron Man is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
gutted2

18.05.2012, 00:28

@ Boyinhtown

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» I want to thank everyone who participated in my poll.
»
» Now the reasoning behind my poll. I have always noticed
» that men with baldness also usually have absolutel no acne (as I do)
» and general, thinning of body/pubic hair... also many times they
» rarely get sick.. also sometimes they can have red or dry eyes lacking
» lubrication...
»
» All these sypmtoms go together... they are interconnected. Now if men are
» loosing and also getting grey hair all over their body as I am and don't
» have an oily scalp and no acne.. well that shows that our sebum production
» and thus prostaglandin production is messed up and is the reason for our
» hair loss.
»
» DHT doesn't cause hair loss and I will say that again. Your hair actually
» need DHT to grow. My brother who is 2 years older than me is 30 and he has
» a full head of hair even though my father and my grandfather have severe
» hair thinning and baldness...
»
» Yet his face looks like he just slathered butter all over it.
» SEBUM ALSO DOESN'T CAUSE HAIRLOSS.....I can't believe some of the things I
» hear on here about how somehow sebum clogs the pore and thus that causes
» hair loss. Sebum actually PROTECTS the scalp and hair from damage and is a
» natural antibacterial substance produced by the body.
»
» It has many necessary benefits so lets stop saying stuff that doesn't make
» sense.
»
» People without proper sebum production also often times get dry or red
» eyes.
»
» The key prostaglandin here that is related to hair growth is PGE1. It has
» been talked a lot about. It balances the bad prostaglandin, PGE2.
»
» Our skin contains mast cells that produce prostaglandin for which they need
» gamma-linolenic acid or GLA which is an essential fatty acid. Thus topical
» gla has shown to regrow hair and I am applying it on my scalp to see how
» things go.
»
» As the Pennsylvania researcher Cortaseleris or however his name is spelled
» came out with the news a few months ago, that bald scalp region had higher
» PGd2 that correlates with the idea of bad and good prostaglandins out of
» balance.
»
» See, PGD2 is the precursor to Arachidonic Acid, which is necessary for
» muscle growth but in abnormal amounts can be toxic and cause inflammation.
»
» This website explains the reason GLA is needed helps. And why we have high
» amoutns of Arachidonic Acid in our bodies (scalp as well )
»
» PGd2 is a metabolic product of the Omega 6 essential fatty acid oils...
» It has its requirements but in excess causes hair loss, as proven by
» Cortasleris's research.
»
» So my solution to this is topical Borage Oil and taking it orally as well
» since Borage Oil has a much higher concentration of GLA than Primrose
» Evening Oil.
»
» http://www.evening-primrose-oil.com/gla.html
»
» On the other side of the equation is the Omega-6 family, which includes
» Linoleic Acid, Arachidonic Acid, and Gamma Linolenic Acid. The average
» North American consumes a high amount of Linoleic Acid in processed foods,
» margarine, and vegetable oils. As well, the typical North American diet
» contains a lot of Arachidonic Acid in meat, eggs, and some fish.
»
» On the surface it would therefore seem as if most North Americans get
» enough Omega-6 and should focus on supplementing with Omega-3. However, the
» real story is a little more complex.
»
» There are two complicating factors:
»
» 1. The body often has difficulty utilizing Linoleic Acid; and
»
» 2. Excess Arachidonic Acid actually causes ill effects.
»
»
» The difficulty with Linoleic Acid
»
» Over the last 30 years, researchers have found that many people have
» difficulty utilizing Omega-6 found in the form of Linoleic Acid due an
» impairment in a critical enzyme - Delta-6-Desaturase, or "D6D". The D6D
» enzyme is essential for converting Linoleic Acid into hormone-like
» compounds called eicosanoids, which are essential for cellular function on
» a minute-to-minute basis.
»
» D6D function is impaired in many people partially due to the excessively
» high consumption of Linoleic Acid and partially due to other lifestyle
» factors such as smoking, drinking alcohol, stress, vitamin deficiencies,
» and high levels of saturated fat and trans-fatty acids in the diet. Some
» disease states, such as diabetes, are also associated with impaired D6D
» function.
»
» If a person consumes lots of Omega-6 as Linoleic Acid, but the activity of
» the D6D enzyme is impaired, then the body is not able to use the Omega-6
» it's getting to produce those beneficial eicosanoids.
»
» The ill effects of excess Arachidonic Acid
»
» In the meantime researchers have also discovered that the body uses
» Arachidonic Acid to produce a class of eicosanoids that are strongly
» proinflammatory, constrict our blood vessels, and increase the possibility
» of blood clotting. These compounds are very useful when you accidently cut
» your skin while peeling potatoes - without them, you would bleed to death.
» But once you have an excessive amount of these eicosanoids, the blood can
» clot in places you don't really want it to - for example the coronary
» artery. In other words, it can cause heart attacks. We are literally dying
» from the effects of excess Arachidonic Acid.
»
» The GLA Solution
»
» So… what can a person do to address these difficulties? The answer lies in
» the third source of Omega-6 - Gamma Linolenic Acid, or "GLA". GLA, found in
» Borage Oil, Evening Primrose Oil, and Black Currant Oil, does not require
» that impaired D6D enzyme for breakdown by the body. And, it produces a
» class of eicosanoids that are highly anti-inflammatory, dilate blood
» vessels, and reduce blood clotting. These effects are useful for the
» treatment and prevention of a wide range of diseases:
»
» The anti-inflammatory effects are useful for the prevention and treatment
» of arthritis, allergies, and skin conditions such as eczema and psoriasis;
»
» The dilation of blood vessels helps prevent high blood pressure; and
» Reduced blood clotting helps prevent heart attacks and other associated
» cardiovascular diseases such as strokes.


i posted this on another forum a few years back -

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/EP0309086.html




gutted2 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
Bryan

18.05.2012, 03:14

@ Boyinhtown

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» DHT doesn't cause hair loss and I will say that again. Your hair actually
» need DHT to grow.

LOL! Then how do you explain the beneficial effect of finasteride, which causes scalp hair to grow? :-)




Bryan is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
Ahab

18.05.2012, 04:58

@ Iron Man

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

>> so what exactly are you suggesting? Changing diet really? I know people
» whose health is terrible but they still have 100% of their hair...

There might be something to diet.

Years ago I heard that Americans of Japanese descent were going bald while men the same age group living in Japan were not going bald.

Japanese men consume a lot of fish, which is generally high in Omega 3, while the modern industrialized diet of Americans is increasingly deficient in Omega3.

So it could be if American men were careful to eat less food containing Omega6 (for example, factory farm raised animals) and more food containing Omega3 (for example green leafy plants--the primary source of Omega3--or animals whose diet is primarily green leafy plants or other animals that eat green leafy plants, like grass fed beef, free range chicken, and fish or fish oil), then maybe Ameican men wouldn't go bald or at least not go bald at a young age.

However, I somehow doubt that switching to an Omega3 rich diet would reverse hair losss after it's already happened (I put my self on a Omega3 rich diet for over a year for reasons of general health--and I have seen no detectable improvement in my hair).




Ahab is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
gutted2

18.05.2012, 14:43

@ Ahab

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» >> so what exactly are you suggesting? Changing diet really? I know people
» » whose health is terrible but they still have 100% of their hair...
»
» There might be something to diet.
»
» Years ago I heard that Americans of Japanese descent were going bald while
» men the same age group living in Japan were not going bald.
»
» Japanese men consume a lot of fish, which is generally high in Omega 3,
» while the modern industrialized diet of Americans is increasingly deficient
» in Omega3.
»
» So it could be if American men were careful to eat less food containing
» Omega6 (for example, factory farm raised animals) and more food containing
» Omega3 (for example green leafy plants--the primary source of Omega3--or
» animals whose diet is primarily green leafy plants or other animals that
» eat green leafy plants, like grass fed beef, free range chicken, and fish
» or fish oil), then maybe Ameican men wouldn't go bald or at least not go
» bald at a young age.
»
» However, I somehow doubt that switching to an Omega3 rich diet would
» reverse hair losss after it's already happened (I put my self on a Omega3
» rich diet for over a year for reasons of general health--and I have seen no
» detectable improvement in my hair).


all explained in this book, together with the true cause of baldness ->
http://www.amazon.com/Androgenetic-Alopecia-Modern-Concepts-Pathogenesis/dp/4431701583


i also agree dht and androgens are needed for hair growth without them you probably would not have any hair growth whatsoever unless there are other unknown hormones that also modulate hair growth.




gutted2 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
Bryan

18.05.2012, 22:01

@ gutted2

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» i also agree dht and androgens are needed for hair growth without them you
» probably would not have any hair growth whatsoever unless there are other
» unknown hormones that also modulate hair growth.

I'll ask you the same question I asked somebody else in this thread: how do you explain the beneficial effect on hair growth from finasteride and dutasteride? :-)




Bryan is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
gutted

19.05.2012, 02:02

@ Bryan

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» » i also agree dht and androgens are needed for hair growth without them
» you
» » probably would not have any hair growth whatsoever unless there are
» other
» » unknown hormones that also modulate hair growth.
»
» I'll ask you the same question I asked somebody else in this thread: how
» do you explain the beneficial effect on hair growth from finasteride and
» dutasteride? :-)

for you to understand why fin helps hair loss, you need to think out of the box rather than traditional (possibly flawed) ways of thought, and realise the true, root, causes of mpb.

finastride helps hairloss indirectly. There is no denying finastride helps hairloss and growth, but remember the hair growth is down to the body not fin. Fin just provides the right enviroment for growth to flourish, this enviroment can be achieved without the use of fin too.




gutted is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
KO

19.05.2012, 02:13

@ gutted

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» » » i also agree dht and androgens are needed for hair growth without them
» » you
» » » probably would not have any hair growth whatsoever unless there are
» » other
» » » unknown hormones that also modulate hair growth.
» »
» » I'll ask you the same question I asked somebody else in this thread:
» how
» » do you explain the beneficial effect on hair growth from finasteride and
» » dutasteride? :-)
»
» for you to understand why fin helps hair loss, you need to think out of the
» box rather than traditional (possibly flawed) ways of thought, and realise
» the true, root, causes of mpb.
»
» finastride helps hairloss indirectly. There is no denying finastride
» helps hairloss and growth, but remember the hair growth is down to the body
» not fin. Fin just provides the right enviroment for growth to flourish,
» this enviroment can be achieved without the use of fin too.

Then could you explain why the pseudoherm people don't develop MPB?




KO is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
gutted

19.05.2012, 02:36

@ KO

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» » » » i also agree dht and androgens are needed for hair growth without
» them
» » » you
» » » » probably would not have any hair growth whatsoever unless there are
» » » other
» » » » unknown hormones that also modulate hair growth.
» » »
» » » I'll ask you the same question I asked somebody else in this thread:
» » how
» » » do you explain the beneficial effect on hair growth from finasteride
» and
» » » dutasteride? :-)
» »
» » for you to understand why fin helps hair loss, you need to think out of
» the
» » box rather than traditional (possibly flawed) ways of thought, and
» realise
» » the true, root, causes of mpb.
» »
» » finastride helps hairloss indirectly. There is no denying
» finastride
» » helps hairloss and growth, but remember the hair growth is down to the
» body
» » not fin. Fin just provides the right enviroment for growth to flourish,
» » this enviroment can be achieved without the use of fin too.
»
» Then could you explain why the pseudoherm people don't develop MPB?



its possible, they dont develop mpb because they have testosterone/(unknwon hair moduulating hormones) available to modulate thier hair growth.

the absense of dht (which probably is the major modulator of the sebcaceous gland) is possibly one of the main reasons as to why they do not develop mpb.




gutted is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
KO

19.05.2012, 04:44

@ gutted

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

»
»
» its possible, they dont develop mpb because they have testosterone/(unknwon
» hair moduulating hormones) available to modulate thier hair growth.
»

What does that mean? ALL males have testosterone, it doesn't make any sense that testosterone in the pseudoherms would "modulate" hair growth and not do anything for the rest of us.

» the absense of dht (which probably is the major modulator of the sebcaceous
» gland) is possibly one of the main reasons as to why they do not develop
» mpb.

But that's just not true, they HAVE dht, what they don't have is 5AR-2. They don't develop MPB and have small prostates - hence the very creation of finasteride which creates the EXACT same effect in other men. Your theory just doesn't add up.




KO is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
Bryan

19.05.2012, 05:39

@ gutted

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» » I'll ask you the same question I asked somebody else in this thread:
» » how do you explain the beneficial effect on hair growth from
» » finasteride and dutasteride? :-)
»
» for you to understand why fin helps hair loss, you need to think out of the
» box rather than traditional (possibly flawed) ways of thought, and realise
» the true, root, causes of mpb.
»
» finastride helps hairloss indirectly. There is no denying finastride
» helps hairloss and growth, but remember the hair growth is down to the body
» not fin. Fin just provides the right enviroment for growth to flourish,
» this enviroment can be achieved without the use of fin too.

Okay, I'll be intrigued to hear how finasteride and dutasteride help hairloss "indirectly"! Explain all the details of exactly how that works! :-)




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Post reply
Bryan

19.05.2012, 05:45

@ gutted

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» » Then could you explain why the pseudoherm people don't develop MPB?
»
» its possible, they dont develop mpb because they have testosterone/(unknwon
» hair moduulating hormones) available to modulate thier hair growth.
»
» the absense of dht (which probably is the major modulator of the sebcaceous
» gland) is possibly one of the main reasons as to why they do not develop
» mpb.

As "KO" already explained to you, pseudohermaphrodites have normal levels of DHT in their sebaceous glands (from 5a-reductase type 1). Yet they have normal, non-balding hair! So your explanation for that is...?




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Post reply
appleguy

19.05.2012, 11:45

@ Bryan

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

My scalp creates excessive amounts of sebum which was causing me no end of hairloss.

Since then I have gotten it under control with numerous products and dietary changes.

I first added a number of vitamins to my diet.
Omega 3 fish oils
Zinc
Vitamin B complex (100 timed release)
Saw Palmetto

The Zinc deficiency was showing up under my fingernails as little white spots but it also stops the hair getting what it needs, when I saw a trichologist she showed me my hair under a microscope and showed a buildup of lactic acid and a lack of protein which normally manifests itself as a green line around the follicle.

I altered my diet so that I have a protein rich breakfast (protein first thing in the morning lets the hair get it first before the body takes it all)
The above vitamins and also I cut out WHEAT and potatoes from my diet, wheat being the overriding factor which causes the body to create more sebum.
I would also point out I am an 'O' blood group all of which have slight intolerance to wheat usually showing up as increase in weight, I have lost tons of weight since cutting out wheat and feel better for it!

It used to be I could touch my temples which have receded and they would be slick with oil, this oil accumulates on the skin with skin cells and clogs follicles until they go dormant, if you have a MPB probably this can be exacerbated by this condition as such my scalp isn't what it used to be.

My trichologist also told me my scalp is very tense as I carry most of my stress there which is also giving me issues so as well as the above I had to massage my scalp when putting on my topical medicines and also drink LOTS of water to drain away the sebum problem.

However with the above steps I am getting it under control and regaining a lot of what I once lost.

What I'm getting at is this issue is very common (one in four!) and a lot of guys have said they had oily scalps before losing their hair but it is something that you can get under control.
I posted here because a lot of the symptoms boyintown mentioned I have and a lot of it is to do with the 'o' blood group:
Powerful immune system (rarely get ill)
Wheat intolerance.

In fact it is the powerful immune system which is part of the problem, that histominic response is what makes O blood groups only able to use other O blood donors, they have strong antibodies which won't tolerate a thing. This includes wheat.
I also had the dry eyes problem as mentioned usually my right eye what get a little bit flakey from time to time and I also get very little acne.

I don't think it is the cause of MPB but it is a definite and very common overlying trigger that most people aren;t aware of and come to accept.

My MPB isn't that aggressive but if left unchecked this condition can make it so.




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Post reply
gutted

19.05.2012, 13:50

@ KO

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» »
» »
» » its possible, they dont develop mpb because they have
» testosterone/(unknwon
» » hair moduulating hormones) available to modulate thier hair growth.
» »
»
» What does that mean? ALL males have testosterone, it doesn't make any sense
» that testosterone in the pseudoherms would "modulate" hair growth and not
» do anything for the rest of us.
»
» » the absense of dht (which probably is the major modulator of the
» sebcaceous
» » gland) is possibly one of the main reasons as to why they do not develop
» » mpb.
»
» But that's just not true, they HAVE dht, what they don't have is 5AR-2.
» They don't develop MPB and have small prostates - hence the very creation
» of finasteride which creates the EXACT same effect in other men. Your
» theory just doesn't add up.


if they had no testosterone, they probably would have no hair whatsoever.

sorry i meant to say the limited dht within them, regulates the gland at controlled levels, homeostatatic levels rather than hyperactiveley.

the gland is possibly more important than researchers give it credit it for.
Sebum contains fatty acids, which ones,im not sure of.
As you may be aware there are certain fatty acids which have shown to reduce inflammatory agents/also reduce dht.




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Post reply
gutted

19.05.2012, 14:40

@ Bryan

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» » » I'll ask you the same question I asked somebody else in this thread:
» » » how do you explain the beneficial effect on hair growth from
» » » finasteride and dutasteride? :-)
» »
» » for you to understand why fin helps hair loss, you need to think out of
» the
» » box rather than traditional (possibly flawed) ways of thought, and
» realise
» » the true, root, causes of mpb.
» »
» » finastride helps hairloss indirectly. There is no denying
» finastride
» » helps hairloss and growth, but remember the hair growth is down to the
» body
» » not fin. Fin just provides the right enviroment for growth to flourish,
» » this enviroment can be achieved without the use of fin too.
»
» Okay, I'll be intrigued to hear how finasteride and dutasteride help
» hairloss "indirectly"! Explain all the details of exactly how that works!
» :-)

I have no evidence to give you, just my own hypothesis, and observations/experience.
Bear in mind that dht binding to the androgen receptors of the dermal papilla are not part of this theory and is in my opinion flawed.

finestride/dut modulates the levels of dht in the body to low,possibly acceptable, homeostatic levels (in some individuals) but for others it can wreak havoc and cause further damage than good via upregulation.
In those individulas that have been lucky to achieve homestatic like androgen levels, the body is able to produce a hair again (regrowth) providing its stimulated, im speculating this stimulus comes from the diet.


The way fin helps indirectly, you need to understand the possibly the true cause of the baldness pathway. The following can possibly give you an indication of the type of culprits involved, but may not be limited to them.


Androgenetic alopecia and microinflammation
Yann F. Mahé,PhD, Jean-François Michelet,MSc, Nelly Billoni, MSc, Françoise Jarrousse, BTS , Bruno Buan, BTS , Stephane Commo, BTS, Didier Saint-Léger,PhD and Bruno A. Bernard,PhD

Fin/dut indirectly helps the body calm those pathogens down via the modulation of the sebaceous gland and hence the immune system does not come into play and damage either those follicular cells or the sebaceous gland cells, (which is needed for the proper functioning of the hair, vellus hair has no sebaceous gland)

Basically fin/dut indirectly prevents the infection (and progressive re- inefection over time) of the sebaceous cells and/or follicular cells. It is this ongoing micro infection and micro re-infection that causes the hair cycle to shed prematureley, not dht, dht and androgens are needed for hair growth.

An mpb sufferer can have all the androgens in this world in there follicles, but if they took a broad spectrum antibiotic they will not go bald with all the androgens in this world in thier follciles.

The sebcaceous gland secretes fatty acids, im not aware of the type of fatty acids they secrete but this will most likley be influenced by the diet.




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Post reply
Iron Man

19.05.2012, 17:49

@ gutted

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

oh come on for ducks sake.... the problem is not your diet. hair loss is not even a problem. your body simply decides to get rid of hair and that's it. It's not "destroying" it or anything. simply shrinks follicles.

duck off with the diet theories again.... every ducking year you people come and start preaching about diet.

You want me to show you a picture of holocaust survivors with full heads of hair?




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Post reply
gutted

19.05.2012, 17:58

@ Iron Man

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» oh come on for ducks sake.... the problem is not your diet. hair loss is
» not even a problem. your body simply decides to get rid of hair and that's
» it. It's not "destroying" it or anything. simply shrinks follicles.
»
» duck off with the diet theories again.... every ducking year you people
» come and start preaching about diet.
»
» You want me to show you a picture of holocaust survivors with full heads of
» hair?

read this -> http://www.nature.com/jidsp/journal/v10/n3/full/5640202a.html




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Post reply
gutted

19.05.2012, 18:01

@ Iron Man

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» oh come on for ducks sake.... the problem is not your diet. hair loss is
» not even a problem. your body simply decides to get rid of hair and that's
» it. It's not "destroying" it or anything. simply shrinks follicles.
»
» duck off with the diet theories again.... every ducking year you people
» come and start preaching about diet.
»
» You want me to show you a picture of holocaust survivors with full heads of
» hair?

diet is not the problem, diet is an influence, but reversing baldness through diet is not strong enough once damage has already been done.




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Post reply
Iron Man

19.05.2012, 18:09

@ gutted

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» diet is not the problem, diet is an influence, but reversing
» baldness through diet is not strong enough once damage has already been
» done.

oh yes what a convenient answer for you: diet works unless you already have MPB so it won't work.... yeah okay people with perfect diets go bald and people on worst diets go bald.
diet won't make that much difference to your hair. MPB is not auto immune you noobs. what damage are you talking about? follicles simply shrink


COME ON PEOPLE! we were discussing this diet thing 20 years ago... no one has regrew anything and yet every ducking year these people come back once again preaching how it's all about your diet... JUST STOP!


IRON MAN!!




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Post reply
gutted

19.05.2012, 18:39

@ Iron Man

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» » diet is not the problem, diet is an influence, but
» reversing
» » baldness through diet is not strong enough once damage has already been
» » done.
»
» oh yes what a convenient answer for you: diet works unless you already have
» MPB so it won't work.... yeah okay people with perfect diets go bald and
» people on worst diets go bald.
» diet won't make that much difference to your hair. MPB is not auto immune
» you noobs. what damage are you talking about? follicles simply shrink
»
»
» COME ON PEOPLE! we were discussing this diet thing 20 years ago... no one
» has regrew anything and yet every ducking year these people come back once
» again preaching how it's all about your diet... JUST STOP!
»
»
» IRON MAN!!

what is a perfect diet? that is the mystery.

theres no denying mpb has a genetic component to it. The genetic component is possibly related to the androgen receptor sensitivity of the sebaceous gland between the donor regions and the bald regions not the dermal papilla AR sensitivity.

Another one is the genetically determined distribution of the sebaceous gland between the donor site and the balding regions with a higher concentration of tha glands in the balding region

And another is the distribution of the 5 alpha reductase enzyme between the diffferent sites.

diet has influence on bacteria/pathogens in the body, its not enough to cure.
It can cause hyperactivity of the sebaceous gland, which sets of mpb.




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Post reply
Bryan

19.05.2012, 22:11

@ gutted

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» I have no evidence to give you, just my own hypothesis, and
» observations/experience.
» Bear in mind that dht binding to the androgen receptors of the dermal
» papilla are not part of this theory and is in my opinion flawed.

How do you explain the fact that androgens (including DHT) also suppress the growth of scalp hair follicles when they're applied to those hair follicles in vitro, not just in vivo?




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Post reply
Bryan

19.05.2012, 22:15

@ appleguy

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» My scalp creates excessive amounts of sebum which was causing me
» no end of hairloss.

Really? How do you know that sebum was causing you "no end of hairloss"?




Bryan is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
KO

19.05.2012, 22:42

@ gutted

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

»
» I have no evidence to give you, just my own hypothesis, and
» observations/experience.
» Bear in mind that dht binding to the androgen receptors of the dermal
» papilla are not part of this theory and is in my opinion flawed.
»

Why do you think it is flawed in the first place?


»
» Androgenetic alopecia and microinflammation
» Yann F. Mahé,PhD, Jean-François Michelet,MSc, Nelly Billoni, MSc, Françoise
» Jarrousse, BTS , Bruno Buan, BTS , Stephane Commo, BTS, Didier
» Saint-Léger,PhD and Bruno A. Bernard,PhD
»
» Fin/dut indirectly helps the body calm those pathogens down via the
» modulation of the sebaceous gland and hence the immune system does not come
» into play and damage either those follicular cells or the sebaceous
» gland cells, (which is needed for the proper functioning of the hair,
» vellus hair has no sebaceous gland)
»

You realize that in MPB, white blood cells surround the HF bulge right? So your idea that the immune system doesn't respond is not true.


» Basically fin/dut indirectly prevents the infection (and progressive re-
» inefection over time) of the sebaceous cells and/or follicular cells. It is
» this ongoing micro infection and micro re-infection that causes the hair
» cycle to shed prematureley, not dht, dht and androgens are needed for hair
» growth.

This paragraph doesn't make sense. Please state your point more clearly.

»
» An mpb sufferer can have all the androgens in this world in there
» follicles, but if they took a broad spectrum antibiotic they will not go
» bald with all the androgens in this world in thier follciles.


Uh......based on what?




KO is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
gutted

19.05.2012, 22:46

@ Bryan

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» » I have no evidence to give you, just my own hypothesis, and
» » observations/experience.
» » Bear in mind that dht binding to the androgen receptors of the dermal
» » papilla are not part of this theory and is in my opinion flawed.
»
» How do you explain the fact that androgens (including DHT) also suppress
» the growth of scalp hair follicles when they're applied to those hair
» follicles in vitro, not just in vivo?


i presume this is the study your referring to? -
http://www.fasebj.org/content/16/14/1967.full.pdf




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Post reply
Bryan

19.05.2012, 23:08

@ gutted

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» i presume this is the study your referring to? -
» http://www.fasebj.org/content/16/14/1967.full.pdf

I'm referring to numerous studies which showed that giving androgens to human scalp hair follicles suppresses their growth.




Bryan is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
gutted

19.05.2012, 23:11

@ KO

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» »
» » I have no evidence to give you, just my own hypothesis, and
» » observations/experience.
» » Bear in mind that dht binding to the androgen receptors of the dermal
» » papilla are not part of this theory and is in my opinion flawed.
» »
»
» Why do you think it is flawed in the first place?

because it does not make sense based on my personal experience, if my hair follcile was preprogrammed to minituarise, the single hair that i regrew on my hairline (well below my original hairline) 3 years ago should not be here today. It should have minituarised but this isnt the case, its still thick.



»
»
» »
» » Androgenetic alopecia and microinflammation
» » Yann F. Mahé,PhD, Jean-François Michelet,MSc, Nelly Billoni, MSc,
» Françoise
» » Jarrousse, BTS , Bruno Buan, BTS , Stephane Commo, BTS, Didier
» » Saint-Léger,PhD and Bruno A. Bernard,PhD
» »
» » Fin/dut indirectly helps the body calm those pathogens down via
» the
» » modulation of the sebaceous gland and hence the immune system does not
» come
» » into play and damage either those follicular cells or the
» sebaceous
» » gland cells, (which is needed for the proper functioning of the hair,
» » vellus hair has no sebaceous gland)
» »
»
» You realize that in MPB, white blood cells surround the HF bulge right? So
» your idea that the immune system doesn't respond is not true.
»
im not aware of all details but it stands to reason, that, because of the infection white blood cells will indeed surround the hair follcile bulge cells
I didnt say the immune system doesnt respond, it does respond, and that is what causes hair to shed prematureley i.e shorten the anagen phase as the medical literature puts it.

»
» » Basically fin/dut indirectly prevents the infection (and progressive re-
» » inefection over time) of the sebaceous cells and/or follicular cells. It
» is
» » this ongoing micro infection and micro re-infection that causes the hair
» » cycle to shed prematureley, not dht, dht and androgens are needed for
» hair
» » growth.
»
» This paragraph doesn't make sense. Please state your point more clearly.
»

Fin/dut lowers dht to acceptable levels, this stops the sebaceous gland overproducing, what ever it is feeding the pathogens in the scalp causing them to overgrow, hence they remain at acceptable levels.
It is the ongoing micro-infection of the hair follcicullar cells (and its counterparts) that the bodies immune system is addressing (disinfecting), this is why growth of those cells stop prematureley, not by dht but by the immune system.




» »
» » An mpb sufferer can have all the androgens in this world in there
» » follicles, but if they took a broad spectrum antibiotic they will not go
» » bald with all the androgens in this world in thier follciles.
»
»

I have no basis but you can take a look at -> http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5753713/description.html


Im not saying this is all fact, just a theory.

» Uh......based on what?




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Post reply
gutted

19.05.2012, 23:14

@ Bryan

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» » i presume this is the study your referring to? -
» » http://www.fasebj.org/content/16/14/1967.full.pdf
»
» I'm referring to numerous studies which showed that giving androgens to
» human scalp hair follicles suppresses their growth.

i really cant explain this one, all i can say is the bodies activity cant be replicated in a test tube, and test tube studies should be overlooked.

Was the sebaceous gland present with the hairs in the test tube?




gutted is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
Bryan

19.05.2012, 23:22

@ gutted

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» Basically fin/dut indirectly prevents the infection (and progressive re-
» inefection over time) of the sebaceous cells and/or follicular cells. It is
» this ongoing micro infection and micro re-infection that causes the hair
» cycle to shed prematureley, not dht, dht and androgens are needed for hair
» growth.

Really? How do you explain the rich, luxurious scalp hair growth shown by individuals who have CAIS (Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome)?? Those people have mutations in their androgen receptors, and androgens have ZERO effects on their bodies.




Bryan is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
gutted

19.05.2012, 23:35

@ Bryan

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» » Basically fin/dut indirectly prevents the infection (and progressive re-
» » inefection over time) of the sebaceous cells and/or follicular cells. It
» is
» » this ongoing micro infection and micro re-infection that causes the hair
» » cycle to shed prematureley, not dht, dht and androgens are needed for
» hair
» » growth.
»
» Really? How do you explain the rich, luxurious scalp hair growth
» shown by individuals who have CAIS (Complete Androgen Insensitivity
» Syndrome)?? Those people have mutations in their androgen receptors, and
» androgens have ZERO effects on their bodies.


they are probably modulated by other hormones?

the fact that they are insensitive to androgens means their sebaceous gland is not hyperactive as much, which does not lead on to the other knock on effects that could have ensued.




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Post reply
Bryan

19.05.2012, 23:40

@ gutted

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» » I'm referring to numerous studies which showed that giving androgens to
» » human scalp hair follicles suppresses their growth.
»
» i really cant explain this one, all i can say is the bodies activity cant
» be replicated in a test tube, and test tube studies should be overlooked.
»
» Was the sebaceous gland present with the hairs in the test tube?

I honestly don't know (or remember) if they left the sebaceous glands intact in those studies.

In any event, it's common knowledge that androgens have a direct negative effect on human scalp hair follicles (and some other primate hair follicles, too, like those of stumptailed macaques). I think it's all well and good that you've formulated this "theory" about hairloss being caused by sebum, but you've got to face facts: the general idea that androgens are BAD for scalp hair and damage them DIRECTLY by suppressing their growth is perfectly obvious and profoundly well-known to doctors and scientists. Contradicting that with another "theory" of what causes hairloss may be fine for after-dinner conversation, but it shouldn't be repeated with a straight face on forums like this! :-)




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Post reply
Bryan

19.05.2012, 23:51

@ gutted

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» » Really? How do you explain the rich, luxurious scalp hair growth
» » shown by individuals who have CAIS (Complete Androgen Insensitivity
» » Syndrome)?? Those people have mutations in their androgen receptors,
» » and androgens have ZERO effects on their bodies.
»
»
» they are probably modulated by other hormones?
»
» the fact that they are insensitive to androgens means their sebaceous gland
» is not hyperactive as much, which does not lead on to the other knock on
» effects that could have ensued.

How do you explain the fact that MK386 (a specific 5a-reductase type 1 inhibitor) had no effect on hair growth in either humans or stumptailed macaques? The type of 5a-reductase in sebaceous glands is indeed type 1, and if there were any truth to your "theory", one would expect an effect by MK386. Instead, there's a clear and obvious effect only with finasteride, which is a specific type 2 inhibitor. How do you explain that??




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Post reply
gutted

19.05.2012, 23:59

@ Bryan

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» » » I'm referring to numerous studies which showed that giving androgens
» to
» » » human scalp hair follicles suppresses their growth.
» »
» » i really cant explain this one, all i can say is the bodies activity
» cant
» » be replicated in a test tube, and test tube studies should be
» overlooked.
» »
» » Was the sebaceous gland present with the hairs in the test tube?
»
» I honestly don't know (or remember) if they left the sebaceous glands
» intact in those studies.
»
» In any event, it's common knowledge that androgens have a direct
» negative effect on human scalp hair follicles (and some other primate hair
» follicles, too, like those of stumptailed macaques). I think it's all well
» and good that you've formulated this "theory" about hairloss being caused
» by sebum, but you've got to face facts: the general idea that androgens
» are BAD for scalp hair and damage them DIRECTLY by suppressing their growth
» is perfectly obvious and profoundly well-known to doctors and scientists.
» Contradicting that with another "theory" of what causes hairloss may be
» fine for after-dinner conversation, but it shouldn't be repeated with a
» straight face on forums like this! :-)

well im not saying its scientific fact i do state its my own theory.:-)


If the sebaceous gland had pathogens living within it, they would be transported along with the dissected gland into the test tube.

But the immune system will not have been present in the test tube so could not have stopped the hair cells from growing, perhaps certian immune cells were in the gland already, but who knows.
Test tube studies are flawed.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22134564




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Post reply
gutted

20.05.2012, 00:10

@ Bryan

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» » » Really? How do you explain the rich, luxurious scalp hair
» growth
» » » shown by individuals who have CAIS (Complete Androgen Insensitivity
» » » Syndrome)?? Those people have mutations in their androgen receptors,
» » » and androgens have ZERO effects on their bodies.
» »
» »
» » they are probably modulated by other hormones?
» »
» » the fact that they are insensitive to androgens means their sebaceous
» gland
» » is not hyperactive as much, which does not lead on to the other knock on
» » effects that could have ensued.
»
» How do you explain the fact that MK386 (a specific 5a-reductase type 1
» inhibitor) had no effect on hair growth in either humans or stumptailed
» macaques? The type of 5a-reductase in sebaceous glands is indeed type 1,
» and if there were any truth to your "theory", one would expect an effect by
» MK386. Instead, there's a clear and obvious effect only with
» finasteride, which is a specific type 2 inhibitor. How do
» you explain that??

the sebaceous gland isnt only stimulated by dht, also by other growth factors, so can have influence on this gland.

reducing dht via blocking 5alpha reductase causes upregulation of other hormones, this is what causes more damage than good, it also means AR is upregulated in cells to maintain homeostasis.
5 alpha reductase type 2 (it doesnt matter where in the body it is located) is still present in those people which is still producing dht, pathogens are still infecting, it would make sense hairs wont be growing with MK386.




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Post reply
Bryan

20.05.2012, 00:31

@ gutted

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» well im not saying its scientific fact i do state its my own theory.:-)
»
»
» If the sebaceous gland had pathogens living within it, they would be
» transported along with the dissected gland into the test tube.
»
» But the immune system will not have been present in the test tube so could
» not have stopped the hair cells from growing, perhaps certian immune cells
» were in the gland already, but who knows.
» Test tube studies are flawed.

Androgens _do_ stop scalp hair follicles from growing, and they do it both in vitro and in vivo. Furthermore, antiandrogens stop that effect from happening. This is ALL familiar stuff, and has been repeated ENDLESSELY! :-)




Bryan is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
gutted

20.05.2012, 00:56

@ Bryan

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» » well im not saying its scientific fact i do state its my own theory.:-)
» »
» »
» » If the sebaceous gland had pathogens living within it, they would be
» » transported along with the dissected gland into the test tube.
» »
» » But the immune system will not have been present in the test tube so
» could
» » not have stopped the hair cells from growing, perhaps certian immune
» cells
» » were in the gland already, but who knows.
» » Test tube studies are flawed.
»
» Androgens _do_ stop scalp hair follicles from growing, and they do it both
» in vitro and in vivo. Furthermore, antiandrogens stop that
» effect from happening. This is ALL familiar stuff, and has been repeated
» ENDLESSELY! :-)

PGD2 stops/prevents hair follciles from growing, androgens have an indirect influence on the stoppage but do not stop hair from growing.

this is why test tube studies are flawed...and researchers need to think outside the box, than rely on outdated science :)

If this was the case the vellus to terminal hair that i regrew should have undergone its genetically detrmined pre prgrammed minituarisation 3 years ago, however its still here, growing. If i took a picture and showed you, you will think it looks weird. My current hairline is half an inch above the single, regrown terminal hair.
Also there a random spontaneous regrowth occuring on nw7 scalps, identifying the trigger of this is what im looking for and i think based on my experience i know what the key factor is. i will be engaging in experiments of my own, i will keep you you updated if intrested.




gutted is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
KO

20.05.2012, 01:29

@ gutted

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

You really need to read and consider the evidence that's been put in front of you about this, you're just brushing off everything Bryan and I have written about it with the argument "I disagree I think it's this......".




KO is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
KO

20.05.2012, 01:31

@ gutted

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» reducing dht via blocking 5alpha reductase causes upregulation of other
» hormones, this is what causes more damage than good, it also means AR is
» upregulated in cells to maintain homeostasis.
» 5 alpha reductase type 2 (it doesnt matter where in the body it is located)
» is still present in those people which is still producing dht, pathogens
» are still infecting, it would make sense hairs wont be growing with MK386.

Your argument before was - fin works because DHT is reduced. Now that MK386 ALSO reduces DHT, but doesn't help with hair growth...you're changing tracks. Your argument about "homeostasis" would also happen with fin!




KO is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
Bryan

20.05.2012, 02:19

@ gutted

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» PGD2 stops/prevents hair follciles from growing, androgens have an
» indirect influence on the stoppage but do not stop hair from
» growing.
»
» this is why test tube studies are flawed...and researchers need to think
» outside the box, than rely on outdated science :)
»
» If this was the case the vellus to terminal hair that i regrew should have
» undergone its genetically detrmined pre prgrammed minituarisation 3 years
» ago, however its still here, growing. If i took a picture and showed you,
» you will think it looks weird. My current hairline is half an inch above
» the single, regrown terminal hair.
» Also there a random spontaneous regrowth occuring on nw7 scalps,
» identifying the trigger of this is what im looking for and i think
» based on my experience i know what the key factor is. i will be engaging in
» experiments of my own, i will keep you you updated if intrested.

I haven't bothered to follow the recent material on PGD2, but I do know that sometimes, single hair follicles can be found growing that don't have the usual sensitivity to androgens; it's even possible that such rare follicles can be found among "normal" balding follicles, or even where those other follicles used to be, but then disappeared!!

Why that happens occasionally, I don't think anybody knows; it's just something odd that happens with the genetics of a given hair follicle.




Bryan is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
gutted

20.05.2012, 02:39

@ KO

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» » reducing dht via blocking 5alpha reductase causes upregulation of other
» » hormones, this is what causes more damage than good, it also means AR is
» » upregulated in cells to maintain homeostasis.
» » 5 alpha reductase type 2 (it doesnt matter where in the body it is
» located)
» » is still present in those people which is still producing dht, pathogens
» » are still infecting, it would make sense hairs wont be growing with
» MK386.
»
» Your argument before was - fin works because DHT is reduced.

yes that is what i am saying, it reduces dht, and has the knock on effects on scalp bacteria as the bacterial levels are sustained at "appropiate levels", allowing the immune system to remove the infection. This is what i mean by fin helping indirectly to "grow hair"

Fin doesnt cause the actual hair growth, the body is free to grow hair, because follciles/counterparts are not infected anymore

BUT for those vellus/dormant hairs that have shut down production, removing the infection may not be enough to restart growth, it takes something else.


Fin is a temporary measure, over time some people start to lose hair because homeostasis of andorgens and/or AR begins to take its course over 5/10 years (fin probably doesnt lose effectiveness), which eventually causes infection, dis-infection and reinfection, also bear in mind not only dht modulates the sebaceous gland but also other factors, like igf1 (this is what is percieved as the anagen hair cycle shortening again i.e the immune system progressiveley having to remove the infection).

in some people homeostasis can take place in 1 year which is why some people "think" fin is not working for them, when in actual fact it never trueley addressed the problem, rather probaly, accellerated the problem! For these people - a very very minor dose is required for fin to indirectly work for them and to delay the bodies homestasis.

its possible that thinning hairs are hairs that have regenerated with partial infection present. The body was not able to fully rid the infection.


» Now that MK386
» ALSO reduces DHT, but doesn't help with hair growth...you're changing
» tracks. Your argument about "homeostasis" would also happen with fin!

I explained mk386 didnt cause any hair growth because the direct problem (scalp bacteria) was never addressed.
There was still dht being produced by 5 alpha reductase type 2 elsewhere in the body, serum dht/igf1 also probably targets the sebaceous gland causing hyperactivity and the overgrowth and infection of the follcile/counterparts.

The sebaceous gland does not differentiate between dht produced by 5alpha type 1 or type 2.




gutted is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
KO

20.05.2012, 04:53

@ gutted

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

This makes literally no sense. The p-herm people have no MPB and smaller prostates, but according to you that is because other hormones "modulate" hair growth?

Then why aren't these other hormones modulating hair growth in balding men???


But then you say that systemic levels of DHT are what's responsible for MPB.

But when we point out that reducing systemic levels of DHT via MK386 does nothing for MPB, you point out that 5AR-2 has not been reduced, and something is going on in the sebaceous glands. So I don't get what you're saying, according to you is 5AR-2 an important component in the MPB process or not? If it is not an important component, then why d0 5AR1 inhibitors not help MPB but 5AR2 inhibitors do?


Also do you realize that the 5AR-2 isozyme is localized to the hair follicle and not the sebaceous gland?

Are you familiar with any of the literature at all?




KO is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
roger_that

MARYLAND,
20.05.2012, 14:19
(edited by roger_that, 20.05.2012, 14:39)

@ gutted

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» theres no denying mpb has a genetic component to it. The genetic component
» is possibly related to the androgen receptor sensitivity of the sebaceous
» gland between the donor regions and the bald regions not the dermal papilla
» AR sensitivity.

OK, I follow what you're saying, but if you look at it logically, it doesn't make any sense. Why does transplanted hair grow in bald regions, then? When hair is transplanted from donor regions, sebaceous glands from the donor regions are not transplanted along with them. The sebaceous glands in the bald regions remain the same. If you think it's the influence of DHT-sensitive sebaceous glands in the MPB-affected regions which causes MBP, and not DHT-sensitive dermal papillae, then transplanted hair shouldn't grow, because the same "bad" sebaceous glands would be present, influencing the follicles as you say.

I think your theory is a real stretch, and violates Occam's Razor, which favors simpler, more obvious explanations over elaborate theories which require too many assumptions. Although conceivably there is something to your theory that sebaceous glands in balding areas are affected by DHT and have an influence on balding follicles, to assume they're the sole cause, or the primary cause, of MPB when obvious facts do not bear that out, is not good science.




roger_that is located in MARYLAND and he is available to meet: YES
email hairsite@aol.com to arrange a meeting.


Post reply
gutted

20.05.2012, 15:00

@ KO

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» This makes literally no sense. The p-herm people have no MPB and smaller
» prostates, but according to you that is because other hormones "modulate"
» hair growth?
»

I dont understand what doesnt make sense?

p-herm people dont develop mpb because they have limited, "appropiate or stable/controlled" levels of testosterone and low dht to stimulate hair growth and prevent baldness indirectly.
(remember according my theory it is excess,high levels of either dht/5alpha type1 or 2 and igf1 that causes hyperactivity of the sebaceous gland by binding to its AR having the knock on effect of overgrowing scalp bacteria probably through the release of sebum which causes micro-infection of either the folcilular cells and/or sebgland)


» Then why aren't these other hormones modulating hair growth in balding
» men???
»
What i mean here is - there may be other hormones that could modulate hair growth in humans, mens hairs are stimulated by test/dht and womens by estrogen, where as women also contain dht too? Its not clearley established.

Once hair cells/sebaceous gland mitochondria shut down, it needs to be signalled for activation for hair to occur - this is a safety mechanism after all the infections and subsequent reinfections of the cells. Simply stimulating them with test/dht is not enough to signal activation.
Im theorising either the sebaceous gland cells are the ones that shut down either due to the safety mechanism or damage, without this gland hair remains vellus.
Vellus hairs do not contain a sebgland.

»
» But then you say that systemic levels of DHT are what's responsible for
» MPB.
»
» But when we point out that reducing systemic levels of DHT via MK386 does
» nothing for MPB, you point out that 5AR-2 has not been reduced, and
» something is going on in the sebaceous glands. So I don't get what you're
» saying,

»

following text -

"DHT which is produced in the prostate, various adrenal glands, and the scalp is produced from testosterone by two 5-alpha reductase isoenzymes, called Type I and Type II.
Type I 5AR is much more prominent in the scalp than Type II. However, immunostaining techniques reveal that Type I is abundant in sebaceous glands, while significant Type II is present in the dermal papilla itself. "

With mk386 it only inhibited type 1 - it doesnt take into account the systemic introduction of igf-1, dht,testosterone, all of which stimulate the secretion of the seb gland i.e leading to an overgrowth of bacteria and subsequent infection BUT dht is the more potent stimulator, enough to cause infection at uncontrolled levels, so yes systemic levels of dht/igf1 are a key factor - BUT my point is not to reduce DHT/testosterone/igf1/5alphatype1 or 2. My point is controlling dht levels regardless of where it is controlled allows the body to disinfect, infected cells.

»according to you is 5AR-2 an important component in the MPB process
» or not?

5alpha reductase type 1 and type 2 are not important in my thoery, and again dht and testosterone are not important, what IS important is helping the body [b]stabilise
the sebaceous gland/scalp bacteria levels to prevent infection - THIS is what reducing DHT via blocking 5 alpha type1 and/or 2 DO via both tissue/systemic distribution of dht. Lowering dht allows the body to disinfect infected hair and/or sebgland cells which regenerate without infection - this is why some people, on fin, experience a thicker hair after being on it for sometime (perhaps 1 hair cyle may be enough).

»If it is not an important component, then why d0 5AR1 inhibitors
» not help MPB but 5AR2 inhibitors do?[/b]

this can be explained by the distribution of type 2, it can be assumed type2 is more prominent in the body and leads to a more systemic introduction of dht into the blood stream hence inhibiting type 2 leads to a more pronounced effect on the dht levels in the blood stream, which means the sebaceous gland isnt hyperactive as much, THUS allows the body to disinfect the infected cells.
Inhibiting type 1 probably doesnt result in a major decerease in serum dht levels which is why it never helped in aiding the body in getting rid of the infection in tha mk386 study. Also bear in mind IGF1 is also a stimulator of the sebgland.

»
» Also do you realize that the 5AR-2 isozyme is localized to the hair
» follicle and not the sebaceous gland?

yes i know type 2 can be found in the dermal papilla, but this is not the problem. This, justinfluences the problem.
According to my theory, DHT binding to the AR causing miniturisation is flawed, i know...i sound ignorant.


»
» Are you familiar with any of the literature at all?

im familliar with a few abstracts.




gutted is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
gutted

20.05.2012, 15:20
(edited by gutted, 20.05.2012, 15:35)

@ roger_that

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» » theres no denying mpb has a genetic component to it. The genetic
» component
» » is possibly related to the androgen receptor sensitivity of the
» sebaceous
» » gland between the donor regions and the bald regions not the dermal
» papilla
» » AR sensitivity.
»
» OK, I follow what you're saying, but if you look at it logically, it
» doesn't make any sense. Why does transplanted hair grow in bald
» regions, then? When hair is transplanted from donor regions, sebaceous
» glands from the donor regions are not transplanted along with them.
The
» sebaceous glands in the bald regions remain the same. If you think it's
» the influence of DHT-sensitive sebaceous glands in the MPB-affected regions
» which causes MBP, and not DHT-sensitive dermal papillae, then transplanted
» hair shouldn't grow, because the same "bad" sebaceous glands would be
» present, influencing the follicles as you say.
»


Are you sure about this? I thought the sebgland was taken along with the transplanted hair from donor to the bald site?


This can still be explained -

Im not aware of the details of the hair cyle, but i did think i read that it is the hair that regenerates the seb gland
during telogen/catagen??

So if it is true that the hair,regenerates the seb gland and blood supply it could be assumed the transplanted hair contains the genetic material to regenerate the insensitive sebgland.

But the genetical component of the AR sensitivity between the different sites, can also be looked at again. All hair should contain the same gentical material and behave the same, including AR sensitivity.
The gentical component can be the concentration/distribution of the sebglands and between the donor site and the balding site, with higher distribution/concentration of those glands in the balding site than the donor site.

The reason why transplanted hairs are not affected when transplanted to bald scalp is because on bald scalps, the glands have all shut down production, they arent being infected anymore hence they are NOT spreading this infection to nearby cells.

The baldness pattern occurs in a similar fashion as to how bacteria/microbes cultured on a petri dish, grow.

» I think your theory is a real stretch, and violates Occam's Razor,
» which favors simpler, more obvious explanations over elaborate theories
» which require too many assumptions. Although conceivably there is
» something to your theory that sebaceous glands in balding areas are
» affected by DHT and have an influence on balding follicles, to assume
» they're the sole cause, or the primary cause, of MPB when obvious facts do
» not bear that out, is not good science.

Yes i understand i have no science to give you, just based on a past experience i had, and connecting some dots.




gutted is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
roger_that

MARYLAND,
20.05.2012, 15:43
(edited by roger_that, 20.05.2012, 15:58)

@ gutted

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» Are you sure about this? I thought the sebgland was taken along with the
» transplanted hair from donor to the bald site?

OK, you might be right on that. I don't know if it is.

» This can still be explained -
»
» Im not aware of the details of the hair cyle, but i did think i read that
» it is the hair that regenerates the seb gland
» during telogen/catagen??
»
» So if it is true that the hair,regenerates the seb gland and
» blood supply it could be assumed the transplanted hair contains the
» genetic material to regenerate the insensitive sebgland.
»
» But the genetical component of the AR sensitivity between the different
» sites, can also be looked at again. All hair should contain the same
» gentical material and behave the same, including AR sensitivity.

Here is where you're wrong.

Just because it's all hair from one person, doesn't mean it all has to behave the same.

Sure, it all has all of the genes in the genetic compliment of that person, but the genes behave differently in different places. Location is very important when it comes to genetic expression. The same cell types can behave much differently in different regions of the body.

There is plenty of precedent for this in humans, including in the hair.

Why do people first start developing gray hair in certain parts of their scalp, and not in others?

For instance, many people start graying at the sideburns and temples, while the hair in other parts of the scalp remains colored for a much longer time. In many cases it never goes gray; some people in their 60s and 70s still have dark or "salt and pepper" hair on top and gray at the temples.

According to your theory, all of a person's follicles have the same genes, and if they're going to turn gray at all, they would ALL have to turn gray, and all at the same rate, and there could never be a 70 year old with some gray hair and some hair of his original color.

But the truth is we know you can have a pattern of graying just like a pattern of balding.

Or, why does a dog's fur display patterns of colors across its body, with different areas of spots, etc.? According to your theory, it's all dog fur from the same dog, the follicles all have the same genes, and therefore all the dog's fur should manifest the same color across the dog's entire body.

My point is that all a person's organs have the same genetics, but these genetics aren't necessarily expressed in exactly the same wat throughout the body or even in one organ.




roger_that is located in MARYLAND and he is available to meet: YES
email hairsite@aol.com to arrange a meeting.


Post reply
gutted

20.05.2012, 16:11

@ roger_that

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» » Are you sure about this? I thought the sebgland was taken along with the
» » transplanted hair from donor to the bald site?
»
» OK, you might be right on that. I don't know if it is.
»
» » This can still be explained -
» »
» » Im not aware of the details of the hair cyle, but i did think i read
» that
» » it is the hair that regenerates the seb gland
» » during telogen/catagen??
» »
» » So if it is true that the hair,regenerates the seb gland and
» » blood supply it could be assumed the transplanted hair contains the
» » genetic material to regenerate the insensitive sebgland.
» »
» » But the genetical component of the AR sensitivity between the different
» » sites, can also be looked at again. All hair should contain the same
» » gentical material and behave the same, including AR sensitivity.
»
» Here is where you're wrong.
»
» Just because it's all hair from one person, doesn't mean it all has to
» behave the same.


»
» Sure, it all has all of the genes in the genetic compliment of that person,
» but the genes behave differently in different places. Location is very
» important when it comes to genetic expression. The same cell types can
» behave much differently in different regions of the body.
»
» There is plenty of precedent for this in the human being, including in the
» hair.
»
» Why do people first start developing gray hair in certain parts of their
» scalp, and not in others?

»
» For instance, many people start graying at the sideburns and temples, while
» the hair in other parts of the scalp remains colored for a much longer
» time. In many cases it never goes gray; some people in their 60s and 70s
» still have dark hair on top and gray at the temples.

I agree exression differs between sites. What i meant was hair producing genes are intact. If this was NOT the case transplanting human hair to a mouse would not have caused hair to grow terminal.
Remember stem cells are still present in human hair, and other differntiated hair cells.

Cells take on the charcteristics of thier nearby cells.
Grey hair is probably due to a mutation in undifferntiated cells(stem cells) sometime, in peoples lives, having a knock on effect on differntiated cells in the pathway. This is why theres a pattern.

But baldness is certainly not a mutational disease. That is for sure.

»
» According to your theory, all of a person's follicles have the same genes,
» and if they're going to turn gray at all, they would ALL have to turn gray,
» and all at the same rate, and there could never be a 70 year old with some
» gray hair and some hair of his original color.
»

No that is not the case, gray hair is a mutational disease. It is something that happens over time possibly through mutations. The pattern can easily be explained by nearby cells, taking on the genetic characteriscs of thier neighbour cells.
This should not be used as an analysis against baldness.

» But the truth is we know you can have a pattern of graying just like a
» pattern of balding.
»
»
» My point is that all a person's organs have the same genetics, but this
» genetics doesn't necessarily manifest exactly same throughout the body or
» even in one organ.

Yes i agree with you thier. Expression differs between different sites.




gutted is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
KO

20.05.2012, 18:00

@ gutted

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

You're really going around in circles. Your case has been from the beginning, fin works by reducing DHT SYSTEMICALLY. So does MK386. Why does one grow hair and the other doesn't?




KO is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
KO

20.05.2012, 18:09

@ gutted

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» this can be explained by the distribution of type 2, it can be assumed
» type2 is more prominent in the body and leads to a more systemic
» introduction of dht into the blood stream hence inhibiting type 2 leads to
» a more pronounced effect on the dht levels in the blood stream, which means
» the sebaceous gland isnt hyperactive as much, THUS allows the body
» to disinfect the infected cells.


» Inhibiting type 1 probably doesnt result in a major decerease in serum dht
» levels which is why it never helped in aiding the body in getting rid of
» the infection in tha mk386 study. Also bear in mind IGF1 is also a
» stimulator of the sebgland.
»
NOT TRUE. Serum DHT levels are reduced by MK386.

http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/82/5/1373.short




KO is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
gutted

20.05.2012, 18:25

@ KO

Answer this Poll - requested by Boyinhtown

» You're really going around in circles. Your case has been from the
» beginning, fin works by reducing DHT SYSTEMICALLY. So does MK386. Why does
» one grow hair and the other doesn't?

I dont see where i am going around in cirlces?

mk386 reduces the enzyme type 1 directly. BUT does not touch type 2.

This leaves enzyme type 2 in the body, which is more prominent and proably produces 2/3's of the bodies dht production. which is pumped into the blood stream/tissues - STILL stimulating the sebgland AR influencing the rise in scalp bacteria.

MK386 obviously did not result in a controlled, stabilised, serum/tissue dht level for it to indirectly help the bodies immune system wipe the infection.


You also need to take into account the bodies homestasis as this is the PRIMARY reason why fins loses effectiveness over time - fin helps indirectly by helping the immune system fight the microinfection that is going on in follcile.


Also with the mk386 study you need to realise igf1/testosterone is also a stimulator of the seb gland, this was NOT taken into account during the study as science is only looking at "dht binding to the dermal papilla AR causing minturisation", you are also thinking of it like this, which is why your not understanding my theory.

Im not talking about androgens binding to the dermal papilla AR here, according to me androgens binding to the Dermal papilla AR has nothing to do with baldness.




gutted is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply

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