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benji

24.08.2008, 02:14
 

Stumptailed Macaque study-----RU58841 noticeably better than finasteride (Topicals & Shampoos)

http://books.google.com/books?id=ODBLQc2BdDIC&pg=PA461&lpg=PA461&dq=ru58841+finasteride+4ma&source=web&ots=XYJK-mKpbi&sig=SARx1ETu-sOTLw4ezh4XRAlv0ww&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA461,M1



On page 461, you can see the author detail that RU58841 produces "marked hair regrowth" on the macaques heads. Finasteride increased hairweights by about 25% and some regrowth, 4MA- which is a topical alpha five reductase inhibitor, stopped further hairloss, and MK386--which is a alpha five reductase type one inhibitor that results in less sebum..............really had little effect on the progression of Alopecia in the macaques.



The conclusion is clear though. Ru58841 would be the best product for baldness if one could obtain it. If someone used topical RU58841 with finasteride, they'd probably keep what they had for the rest of their life other than just senescent thinning.

Interestingly, serum DHT might play a role in baldness---at least a small one. Finasteride's performance was better than 4MA's performance was because finas did regrow a little hair. 4MA just stopped further baldness.






Im suprised STILL that no company has tried to buy RU58841 and sell it via the internet or whatever for a reasonable price. A LOT of men would spray something on their heads that pretty much assured them of keeping their hair with no internal side effects. A combo of RU58841 and topical 4MA would be a super-topical anti-androgen combo. Young men would probably never lose their hair with it. What a shame.




benji is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
Mr.Fantastic

24.08.2008, 07:43

@ benji

Stumptailed Macaque study-----RU58841 noticeably better than finasteride

» http://books.google.com/books?id=ODBLQc2BdDIC&pg=PA461&lpg=PA461&dq=ru58841+finasteride+4ma&source=web&ots=XYJK-mKpbi&sig=SARx1ETu-sOTLw4ezh4XRAlv0ww&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA461,M1
»
»
»
» On page 461, you can see the author detail that RU58841 produces "marked
» hair regrowth" on the macaques heads. Finasteride increased hairweights by
» about 25% and some regrowth, 4MA- which is a topical alpha five reductase
» inhibitor, stopped further hairloss, and MK386--which is a alpha five
» reductase type one inhibitor that results in less sebum..............really
» had little effect on the progression of Alopecia in the macaques.
»
»
»
» The conclusion is clear though. Ru58841 would be the best product for
» baldness if one could obtain it. If someone used topical RU58841 with
» finasteride, they'd probably keep what they had for the rest of their life
» other than just senescent thinning.
»
» Interestingly, serum DHT might play a role in baldness---at least a small
» one. Finasteride's performance was better than 4MA's performance was
» because finas did regrow a little hair. 4MA just stopped further baldness.
»
»
»
»
»
»
»
» Im suprised STILL that no company has tried to buy RU58841 and sell it via
» the internet or whatever for a reasonable price. A LOT of men would spray
» something on their heads that pretty much assured them of keeping their
» hair with no internal side effects. A combo of RU58841 and topical 4MA
» would be a super-topical anti-androgen combo. Young men would probably
» never lose their hair with it. What a shame.


Like I said in the past, I've been a RU user for about 3 years. That in combination with other things got my hair thicker than it was in High School for a better part of a year. Then it slowly went downhill from then on. I'm thinking my body either built up a tolerence level against it or the batches just were inferior to the first batch I had. I believe if you use it early enough, it will help you maintain for a good while but it was expensive to do this. A years supply costs me about 1G. I lost hope going into my 3rd year with it barely working and gave up having it compounded for me. It is a very potent anti-androgen, but I had to use it with a coctail of other topicals to get the whole regimine to work that 1st year.




Mr.Fantastic is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
benji

24.08.2008, 16:44

@ Mr.Fantastic

Stumptailed Macaque study-----RU58841 noticeably better than finasteride

that is very interesting...........I hope its not the case, but one wonders if androgen receptors eventually could mutate and start accepting other substances as androgens and initiate the androgen related genes downstream after a few years.....
That would certainly be a concern.

The only way for anyone to know would be a good five year study that tracked results over that length of time. Unfortunately that will probably never happen though.


It will be interesting to see what ACJS9's (curcumoid topical) results are when its human-tested......it supposedly degrades receptor expression.




benji is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
cal

24.08.2008, 18:42

@ benji

Stumptailed Macaque study-----RU58841 noticeably better than finasteride

I'm convinced that there must be something like that going on with RU58841. If it continued to work as well as it supposedly works early on for a lot of guys, then their MPB issues would be over. And this stuff would be all over the place.

It's like huge-graft-count FUE work: The theory seems beautiful, but for some reason we never see the "wow" results that would appear to be such a foregone conclusion with it.

And plenty of guys will tell you about how Finasteride lost a lot of effectiveness after several years too.



I think the anti-androgens in conjunction with ASC-J9 could potentially change the game though. ASC-J9 would fight the follicles' only method of adjusting for the reduction in androgen stimulation.




cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
goata007

25.08.2008, 01:22

@ benji

Stumptailed Macaque study-----RU58841 noticeably better than finasteride

» that is very interesting...........I hope its not the case, but one wonders
» if androgen receptors eventually could mutate and start accepting other
» substances as androgens and initiate the androgen related genes downstream
» after a few years.....

I remember reading somewhere that the receptors DO mutate and adopt to lower androgen levels by becoming more sensitive. Which I think is the reason why propecia looses efficacy generally after 5+ years.




goata007 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO

---
"If we knew what it was that we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?" - Albert Einstein


Post reply
El_Duterino

25.08.2008, 02:33

@ goata007

Stumptailed Macaque study-----RU58841 noticeably better than finasteride

I am using RU58841 with Fluridil and DUT (oral).
Fluridil degrades the AR, same as what we believe ASC-j9 will do.
I am very impressed with the results of this cocktail.

In long term androgen-dependant prostate cancer treatments, it is a known fact that the Androgen Receptors undego genetic mutation to react to androgen-antagonists as it was DHT/Testosterone.
According to some research, this happens to 30% of the cases after a 2 year treatment.

The solution is to take a break from the drug to reverse the situation.

Of course these instances are easier to notice and correct you are treating hairloss and not prostate cancer.

The other reason to not rely on RU or any androgen-antagaonist as a sole solution for stopping hairloss is because of the possibilityt that the AR number and sensitivity will increse while on the drug.




El_Duterino is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
benji

25.08.2008, 02:51

@ El_Duterino

Stumptailed Macaque study-----RU58841 noticeably better than finasteride

» I am using RU58841 with Fluridil and DUT (oral).
» Fluridil degrades the AR, same as what we believe ASC-j9 will do.
» I am very impressed with the results of this cocktail.
»
» In long term androgen-dependant prostate cancer treatments, it is a known
» fact that the Androgen Receptors undego genetic mutation to react to
» androgen-antagonists as it was DHT/Testosterone.
» According to some research, this happens to 30% of the cases after a 2
» year treatment.
»
» The solution is to take a break from the drug to reverse the situation.
»
» Of course these instances are easier to notice and correct you are
» treating hairloss and not prostate cancer.
»
» The other reason to not rely on RU or any androgen-antagaonist as a sole
» solution for stopping hairloss is because of the possibilityt that the AR
» number and sensitivity will increse while on the drug.




I wonder if any genetic mutations would occur if one used natural androgen antagonists? Lavender was found to block the androgen receptor and to stimulate the estrogen recepor----as well as flutamide, but at higher concentrations. Perhaps the mutations are a response to synthetic drugs?




benji is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
Amilcar

25.08.2008, 13:27

@ benji

Stumptailed Macaque study-----RU58841 noticeably better than finasteride

» I wonder if any genetic mutations would occur if one used natural androgen
» antagonists? Lavender was found to block the androgen receptor and to
» stimulate the estrogen recepor----as well as flutamide, but at higher
» concentrations. Perhaps the mutations are a response to synthetic drugs?

benji,

As always you read into my mind ! Also we had a Progesterone discussion me and debris..Among the Progesterone effects is its anti androgen capabilities...I'm thinking that natural Progesterone is something that the body knows and tolerates and therefore wont cause such results after long term use (fading results/genetic mutations).




Amilcar is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
goata007

25.08.2008, 23:50

@ El_Duterino

Stumptailed Macaque study-----RU58841 noticeably better than finasteride

» Fluridil degrades the AR, same as what we believe ASC-j9 will do.

interesting....is there any study that backs this claim??




goata007 is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO

---
"If we knew what it was that we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?" - Albert Einstein


Post reply
El_Duterino

26.08.2008, 05:25

@ goata007

Stumptailed Macaque study-----RU58841 noticeably better than finasteride

» » Fluridil degrades the AR, same as what we believe ASC-j9 will do.
»
» interesting....is there any study that backs this claim??

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6828458/fulltext.html

bp766 = fluridil




El_Duterino is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
cricket

26.08.2008, 06:29
(edited by cricket, 26.08.2008, 07:11)

@ goata007

on the AR mutation

» » that is very interesting...........I hope its not the case, but one
» wonders
» » if androgen receptors eventually could mutate and start accepting other
» » substances as androgens and initiate the androgen related genes
» downstream
» » after a few years.....
»
» I remember reading somewhere that the receptors DO mutate and adopt to
» lower androgen levels by becoming more sensitive. Which I think is the
» reason why propecia looses efficacy generally after 5+ years.


sorry if this is also already notified but the study posted in this thread from El_Duterino (fluridil ) talks about it :

The use of systemic antiandrogens such as the steroids cyproterone acetate,
chlormadinone acetate and spironolactone was proposed for treatment of
women suffering from androgenic effluvium and alopecia but concerns for
side effects call for clinical studies (Diamanti-Kandarakis, Current Pharm
Des, 1999 September, 5(9): 707-23).

There are other limitations: It is
known that at least in males chronically treated with systemic
antiandrogens, the resulting extended androgenic receptor blockade leads
to mutation of the androgen receptors, and that the mutated receptors
attain the capability of being activated by other substances such as
various steroidal metabolites, progestins and estrogens, insulin-like
growth factor, epidermal growth factor and keratinocyte growth factor and
neuroendocrine transmitters such as serotonin.



I don't know if the source is fine but if it 's right
we've a trouble.

if i stay on fina for 2 years and then AR become more sensible
the only possibile alternative is ru (or fluridil but works well ?).. but then ?

We have not other chance to work at level of receptor
(actually we've no other substance at all :( )

(i.e. if we suppose topical keto has a good anti-A action it works before AR ..and so all the topical in clinical trial except ascj-9 foam ...)


so, we need a procedure for new follicle ..this is one added reason..but this was already well know sadly...

edit : ok this cleary talks about systemic cipro or spiro but i think the result is the same for fina.. i'm wrong ?

we should check in "androgen receptors" pdf by chang (benjii's post for ru58841)..




cricket is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
baldbatman

26.08.2008, 09:27

@ cricket

Best Stacks w/ RU

So for anyone w/ experience, what would a good combo be w/ no orals?

RU + Fluridil?
RU + Minoxidil?
RU + ?

Anything else that comes to mind?

Thanks,

Bats

» » » that is very interesting...........I hope its not the case, but one
» » wonders
» » » if androgen receptors eventually could mutate and start accepting
» other
» » » substances as androgens and initiate the androgen related genes
» » downstream
» » » after a few years.....
» »
» » I remember reading somewhere that the receptors DO mutate and adopt to
» » lower androgen levels by becoming more sensitive. Which I think is the
» » reason why propecia looses efficacy generally after 5+ years.
»
»
» sorry if this is also already notified but the study posted in this thread
» from El_Duterino (fluridil ) talks about it :
»
» The use of systemic antiandrogens such as the steroids cyproterone
» acetate,
» chlormadinone acetate and spironolactone was proposed for treatment of
» women suffering from androgenic effluvium and alopecia but concerns for
» side effects call for clinical studies (Diamanti-Kandarakis, Current
» Pharm
» Des, 1999 September, 5(9): 707-23).
»
» There are other limitations: It is
» known that at least in males chronically treated with systemic
» antiandrogens, the resulting extended androgenic receptor blockade leads
» to mutation of the androgen receptors, and that the mutated receptors
» attain the capability of being activated by other substances such as
» various steroidal metabolites, progestins and estrogens, insulin-like
» growth factor, epidermal growth factor and keratinocyte growth factor and
» neuroendocrine transmitters such as serotonin.
»
»
» I don't know if the source is fine but if it 's right
» we've a trouble.
»
» if i stay on fina for 2 years and then AR become more sensible
» the only possibile alternative is ru (or fluridil but works well ?).. but
» then ?
»
» We have not other chance to work at level of receptor
» (actually we've no other substance at all :( )
»
» (i.e. if we suppose topical keto has a good anti-A action it works before
» AR ..and so all the topical in clinical trial except ascj-9 foam ...)
»
»
» so, we need a procedure for new follicle ..this is one added reason..but
» this was already well know sadly...
»
» edit : ok this cleary talks about systemic cipro or spiro but i think the
» result is the same for fina.. i'm wrong ?
»
» we should check in "androgen receptors" pdf by chang (benjii's post for
» ru58841)..




baldbatman is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
cal

26.08.2008, 20:14

@ baldbatman

Best Stacks w/ RU

There's no big secret that the AR grows more susceptible to androgens when we deprive it over time. Hell, there's a difference in a few weeks/months, nevermind years.

But as far as I know, if you yank the drugs then it will basically revert to its old lower susceptibility like before.



No different than growing a tolerance to ahcohol when you drink a lot.




cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
Bryan

29.08.2008, 04:40

@ goata007

An inconvenient truth...

» I remember reading somewhere that the receptors DO mutate and adopt to
» lower androgen levels by becoming more sensitive. Which I think is the
» reason why propecia looses efficacy generally after 5+ years.

The only problem I have with that general theory is that Hamilton found that castration worked to stop further balding in men for as long as 20-30 years afterwards!! If androgen receptors DO become "more sensitive" when deprived of androgens, why doesn't castration also start to fail after a short period of time?

.




Bryan is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
El_Duterino

29.08.2008, 06:46

@ Bryan

An inconvenient truth...

»» The only problem I have with that general theory is that Hamilton found
» that castration worked to stop further balding in men for as long as 20-30
» years afterwards!! If androgen receptors DO become "more sensitive" when
» deprived of androgens, why doesn't castration also start to fail after a
» short period of time?
»
» .

95% of the testosteron is produced by the Testicules. So castrated men have a max of 5% of the testosterone level we have.
That is much lower than anything we can achieve we these hairloss anti-androgen.
I think that past a certain percentage, there is no more effect on the AR.




El_Duterino is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
Bryan

29.08.2008, 17:54

@ El_Duterino

An inconvenient truth...

» 95% of the testosteron is produced by the Testicules. So castrated men
» have a max of 5% of the testosterone level we have.
» That is much lower than anything we can achieve we these hairloss
» anti-androgen.
» I think that past a certain percentage, there is no more effect on the AR.

Some of the animal studies have compared the effects of topical RU58841 directly with castration. In fact, at least one of them actually used the exact words that it had a "castration-like effect" on the animals they were using! It's hard to square that with the theory that the use of RU would cause a reactive increase in the sensitivity of androgen receptors that would eventually negate its effect, but castration wouldn't do that.

.




Bryan is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply
cal

11.10.2008, 02:23

@ Bryan

An inconvenient truth...

RU58841 should get some kind of award for being the most conflicting & confusing substance in the hair loss game.




cal is located in [NA] and he is available to meet: NO


Post reply

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